Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

I agree with you.
I think legalism means we're doing something because we have to, maybe thinking that keeping all the laws perfectly will somehow save us even if we have no faith.

Unfortunately it has been twisted into a "bad thing".
There is a lot we "must do".
From hearing and believing, to rejecting all temptations.

Frankly, I like your explanation.
Jesus was legalistic, wasn't He?
He sure had a lot to say both about our behavior and our actions.

Yes, I guess He was; which illuminates the absurdity of the doctrine from the git-go.

However He knew we had to love Him first, or we would be unable to obey/follow Him.

Agreed.
Too bad the "anti-legal" crowd thinks "have to love" is something to avoid.

 

[Hopeful]

And you know that is a very good question...I believe we either faithing or unfaithing......our deeds are exposed in the light right? Why do you believe paul talks to the Corinthians the way he does?
They were still babes growing and learning, and we too learn how to relate, and trust God...Scripture says the righteous will live by faith.....Maybe Heaven in the sense of being around God will be like Hell (God turning His face) on any one who knows to do right and doesn't do it.........But here is a scripture we can meditate on, or study.
Judgement begins with_____?

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)

The Spirit teaches us to remain in Christ...
But here's the passage I was speaking of:
2nd Corinthians 5:17
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

Looking at the latter "are become new"
That might mean as we grow in grace and in knowledge of Jesus Christ we will put off the old self....

It means at rebirth we are no longer of Adam's seed.
We have been reborn of God's seed and can no longer bring forth the fruit of the devil.

So what do you think?
We should not seek to do wrong...but for me...I'm growing it looks in some or one area at a time.

The fruit determines, illustrates, from Whose seed we are from. (1 John 3:9-10)

Paul wants Christ to be formed in us...Mature not lacking anything...

Yes he does, and thankfully, he provided the ways and means to do so.

 

[Runmyramble]

My thought is...Legalism is about do this, do that...But not about trust Jesus to become the type of individual where the heart is being transformed to the image of Christ where we naturally will do what we are becoming.

Legalism does not look at the heart of the matter...

First make the tree good then it's fruit will be.

Legalism...one can also say leaves no room for grace.

It's like a person of another religious background, known their laws regarding women to be covered from head to toe.

But say one woman was very Hot and had one of those hot flashes, lol. And she uncovered herself so not to lose so much water from her body, in the desert.

And someone seen her uncovered...then she would be excommunicated by Her group without looking at the motive behind what she did. (AS BY LIVING BY THE LETTER OF THE LAW) ....IT DOESN'T LOOK AT THE HEART OF THE MATTER.

Many women may be judged heavily those church members that wear pants to church, but that may be all they have.

As the woman who gave her last cent...And that was all she had. Religiousity/legalism fail to look at the motive/heart.

My mother may see me as a church hopper [smile] ....She says stop hopping...

She is more concerned that I go to a church consistently then what I am doing in the churches I attend...

It's not what it looks like on the outside so people can say, she or He is one that goes to church so they must be good people.

But God is looking at our hearts. Does He have integrity? How does this person behave outside of being seen by others. What would He do if no one was looking?
Would He steal, kill or lie if no one was watching and He could get away with it?

So there goes that statement : get away from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you...

That does not mean they did not know of Him...But they never had a relationship.
That type of "knew" most likely means an intimate relationship.

 

[Runmyramble]

Unfortunately it has been twisted into a "bad thing".
There is a lot we "must do".
From hearing and believing, to rejecting all temptations.

Yes, I guess He was; which illuminates the absurdity of the doctrine from the git-go.

Agreed.
Too bad the "anti-legal" crowd thinks "have to love" is something to avoid.

To add- We do not keep the Law by trying to keep the law(by our own natural abilities) We uphold the law through the faith of Jesus. (His natural ability-Who He is) So there is a truth I see..."Legal"-ism(rightness) as Justification is the outcome of belief in Jesus the Risen Lord.
Therefore justification is the outcome of a legal proceeding....The proceedings I wonder could be that Jesus kept all the Law.....

Anyway just rambling

 

[Hopeful]

To add- We do not keep the Law by trying to keep the law(by our own natural abilities) We uphold the law through the faith of Jesus. (His natural ability-Who He is) So there is a truth I see..."Legal"-ism(rightness) as Justification is the outcome of belief in Jesus the Risen Lord.
Therefore justification is the outcome of a legal proceeding....The proceedings I wonder could be that Jesus kept all the Law.....

Anyway just rambling

Our obedience to God, His Son, and our neighbors, isn't based on Laws, it is based on love.

 

[jaybo]

Our obedience to God, His Son, and our neighbors, isn't based on Laws, it is based on love.

Great post!

 

[Runmyramble]

Our obedience to God, His Son, and our neighbors, isn't based on Laws, it is based on love.

If Jesus never fulfilled the law that required a Holy sacrifice then the Jews would still be Held under the Law...and the Gentiles would have yet to be grafted in...

God so loved the world that He Gave. .....Jesus obeyed His father unto death...

And Yes you are correct for scripture says niether circumcision nor uncircumcism avails for anything, but the only thing that matters is faith that works by Love...

My question to you is, was there something I wrote that warranted that reply?

 

[Runmyramble]

..

Our obedience to God, His Son, and our neighbors, isn't based on Laws, it is based on love.

While obedience is based on what Jesus did, which was to fullfill the law......and Jesus's Faith is His obedience to God. And surely while God's Love is behind it all...If it is that the Just shall live by faith..
Then one must asked whose faith or faithfulness? While our obedience is not based on us keeping the law directly with our natural abilty...the righteousness of the law according to scripture is fullfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit....

I hope that cleared up...any misunderstanding

 

[Runmyramble]

..

While obedience is based on what Jesus did, which was to fullfill the law......and Jesus's Faith is His obedience to God. And surely while God's Love is behind it all...If it is that the Just shall live by faith..
Then one must asked whose faith or faithfulness? While our obedience is not based on us keeping the law directly with our natural abilty...the righteousness of the law according to scripture is fullfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit....

I hope that cleared up...any misunderstanding

How does Love fullfill the law?
My answer is

1. God is Love
2. Is God his word?...I am that I am
3. If one is walking in the way of Love can He be practicing killing, stealing, lying, murder?

I believe if you are walking North then you can't be walking south at the same time.
Therefore one who walks in Love automatically fullfills the Law....

Matthew 22:37,39-40​

Those are my thoughts...

 

[Hopeful]

If Jesus never fulfilled the law that required a Holy sacrifice then the Jews would still be Held under the Law...and the Gentiles would have yet to be grafted in...

God so loved the world that He Gave. .....Jesus obeyed His father unto death...

And Yes you are correct for scripture says niether circumcision nor uncircumcism avails for anything, but the only thing that matters is faith that works by Love...

My question to you is, was there something I wrote that warranted that reply?

I was just appending the thoughts you presented so clearly.
Like an epilogue.

 

[Hopeful]

..

While obedience is based on what Jesus did, which was to fullfill the law......and Jesus's Faith is His obedience to God. And surely while God's Love is behind it all...If it is that the Just shall live by faith..
Then one must asked whose faith or faithfulness? While our obedience is not based on us keeping the law directly with our natural abilty...the righteousness of the law according to scripture is fullfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit....
I hope that cleared up...any misunderstanding

I understand you just fine, thanks.
Whose faith?
Our own faith is what prompts our love and obedience.
If we didn't believe what Jesus did for us, in accord with all the OT prophesies, we would never love Him or our neighbors.
Like Jesus' faith was manifested by His obedience to God, so too our faith is manifested by our own obedience to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand you just fine, thanks.
Whose faith?
Our own faith is what prompts our love and obedience.
If we didn't believe what Jesus did for us, in accord with all the OT prophesies, we would never love Him or our neighbors.
Like Jesus' faith was manifested by His obedience to God, so too our faith is manifested by our own obedience to God.

Right.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Abraham had faith, his faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

To add- We do not keep the Law by trying to keep the law(by our own natural abilities) We uphold the law through the faith of Jesus. (His natural ability-Who He is) So there is a truth I see..."Legal"-ism(rightness) as Justification is the outcome of belief in Jesus the Risen Lord.
Therefore justification is the outcome of a legal proceeding....The proceedings I wonder could be that Jesus kept all the Law.....

Anyway just rambling

What do you mean,
BY THE FAITH OF JESUS?

Do you mean that Jesus was faithful to Father in all ways and so we can trust on Him?

Or do you mean that we are saved by Jesus' faith and not our own?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Works do .....because there are good works and bad works....
(Go away from me you workers of iniquity)

Also you don't "know" what you have until you walk in it. And we find the def of eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ who He has sent. There is a passage that says, I write these things so that you may know you have life, and that life is in the son.

Point being is the reason He saved us...to be a light by destroying the works of the Devil living by the Spirit.

But here is a scripture that should be thought aboutone can google it)
The will of the father is that everyone who looks to the son and believes will have life and be raised on the last day.

Now what good would it be to have the son in you and not know? When eternal life is to know the father and the son?

What benifit will you have and how will that serve the Kingdom?

And if it is true that you believed Jesus did something for you so you can have heaven when you die, and you came alive by that teaching[were born again] and you never obeyed the Spirit how in the world would that meet God's purpose for why He saved you?

So it does really beg the question: have you received the Spirit when you believed?

Believed what? Believed Jesus did it all so you do nothing.

Or believed Jesus is the son of the living God with intent to following Him?

The problem is not knowing the full gospel...And listen to how disciples(learners-followers) are made: Go and make disciples (again dont quote me but look this up for I'm on my phone typing this).......How are they to go make disciples(learners, followers of Christ)? Teach them to do do do do
All that I command.....baptizing them(immersing as Willard says in the presence of the Holy trinity) in the name of the F,S, and Holy G and low I will be with with with you until the end of the age.

Anyway I'll stop here...because this I hope gives one truly seeking something to think about.




Salvation it's self- can mean the life of Christ.
As He is our deliverer, as the ark was Noah's deliverence.

The ark would not have saved no one from present circumstances if they did not get in it... (obey)

And there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but live by the Spirit.

The issue again is the cart before the horse...as mentioned earlier..

God saved us so that we would live soberly and righteously in this present world....

Saved us from what? Well Ephesian said we were dead in trespasses and Sin,
But made alive together with Christ...

Why? In my view so we are able to learn how to walk with God....to live in His presence (as I give them eternal life)

It is through this life, His life We are a light to the world..

The scriptures points out, if you love me you will keep my commands(teachings)and the father and I will come in and make our abode. with you, or sup with you. (don't quote me but look it up)

You are preaching to the choir. I was rebuking someone else's sate, sent that works only have some part or 'aspect' of salvation.

They are no doubt teaching the lie of being saved, but not having fellowship with Christ, while they are sinning.

What we do has everything to do with being saved and justified by Jesus Christ.

And the first thing we must do to receive Him is to repent of sinning against Him,a nd begin doing right with Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What do you mean,
BY THE FAITH OF JESUS?

Do you mean that Jesus was faithful to Father in all ways and so we can trust on Him?

Or do you mean that we are saved by Jesus' faith and not our own?

Yes. the faith of Jesus is the gift by which we are saved. Our own faith neither saves nor justifies us.

Jesus' faith is what is written in Scripture for all to obey. Our own faith only pertains to our personal walk with Him according to our personal conscience.

And if our faith we live by is contrary to His, so that we are found sinners against Him, then we are not justified by Him at all.

It is His faith we stand upon in fellowship with Him. Your or my personal faith about such matters of conscience as drinks, meats, holy days, etc...matter only to us in having a personal friendship with Jesus.

 

[RBDERRICK]

We are told

If you read the whole passage...you will see what they were saved from.....they were dead in sin and made alive together with Christ...

Therefore they were saved from being dead...

You said: We are saved by believing in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is nothing more that needs to be done.
actually what I said is written


That's not what this scripture states:

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Roman's 5:10

Or what this scripture states:

Part 3
Why Christian argue against works...
So I already touched on the foundation in which many who are against works have been evangelized.

That foundation I said was part of the Gospel....not all of it.

And that foundation is Believe Jesus died was buried and arose from the dead and you have heaven when you die. (Foundation 1), (f1)

Many have not put their confidence in Jesus for who He is with intent to follow. (Foundation 2),(f2)

It is Jesus the son of the living God that is the foundation. Not what He did, although that is equally important .

When many people hear foundation 1...it comes out like this -Jesus did it all so we do nothing.

But when you Read Eph 1:13 you find it was after they listened to the Gospel of truth and having trusted they were sealed.

Well first what is the Gospel they heard?
I have to go back and read to get a reference for you...but I Suspect

Your teaching on believing in Jesus' death on the cross, but not going to obey Him is true.

Hearing and believing he Gospel is only the beginning of salvation, but until we obey the gospel, we are not justified by Christ.

The seed is sown by hearing with faith, but it does not take root, until we obey the faith.

The foundation of being saved and justified by Christ was not laid at the cross, but by the apostles receiving His gospel, doctrine, rule, and commandments.

The only work Jesus did on the cross was to endure being crucified bodily by man sinning against Him, and to endure being separated from the Father by the sins of the world taken upon His soul.

It is the work of the resurrection by which we are justified: we must believe His is resurrected and alive, in order to receive Him and obey Him.

Just believing that He died is nothing: dead faith alone by hearing only.

Until we take up our own cross for His name's sake, to be crucified to sinning, then His cross does nothing for us.

Childish people think they can piggy back on Jesus' cross to the grave and then be resurrected with Him, which is impossible since His own cross became decayed wood in the earth long ago.

But many may not come to understand until they hear the full gospel.

There is some truth to both...

There is no need for original languages to know the first principles of the doctrine of Christ and be saved and justified by Him.

Otherwise, it would not be saving faith by hearing, but by scholarship study.

And trying to weave languages study into the preaching of the gospel only serves to confuse the hearers.

The God who had all His Scripture written into the world, as preserved them all together in one book, and also into all languages of men, that all may hear and be saved by faith.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith to be saved and justified by Christ cometh not by original languages and manuscript study.

And in every single case that such things are brought into the first principles of Christ, they are to either justify sinning or to teach a created christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If all a man wants is salvation from the just rewards of his sin and no more, I’m not sure how that can be satisfied. If along that line he wants to know the minimum effort needed to avoid hell, I’m not sure a”no works at all needed” theology will prove to have aided him in that goal.

The error of 'no works needed to be saved' is always used to justify sinning against Christ, while remain being saved.

They will teach works needed for fellowship, but not for salvation, which also does not therefore need fellowship: they teach they can be sinning with the devil, with no fellowship of Christ in the Light,and still be saved by grace.

OSAS makes being saved sacrosanct and untouchable from any kind of obedience to Jesus: whether they are committing sins or doing good works, no deeds of good or evil are allowed to get anywhere near their delusional salivation by dead faith alone.

This includes justification, which can only be by works of faith, and not by faith only.

For OSAS, no obedient works, fellowship, nor justification by Christ is allowed into the celebration of their unconditional eternally secured salvation.

 

[RBDERRICK]

..

While obedience is based on what Jesus did, which was to fullfill the law......and Jesus's Faith is His obedience to God. And surely while God's Love is behind it all...If it is that the Just shall live by faith..
Then one must asked whose faith or faithfulness? While our obedience is not based on us keeping the law directly with our natural abilty...the righteousness of the law according to scripture is fullfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit....

I hope that cleared up...any misunderstanding

Legalism is simply doing the law outwardly only, without inward faith nor love nor mercy nor judgment of God.

Jesus' reformation for His own people is to give inward spiritual purity first, that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled, and not outwardly in letter only.

He also saves sinners not doing the law at all, including Gentiles without the law, that they likewise may be purified inwardly first, to do the righteousness of the law with faith.

Those who refuse to do the law, or seek to do away with the law, are just ongoing transgressors willing to be seduced into a delusional unconditional salvation by faith only.

There are two kinds of sinners on earth, that are not even in the running of the race for eternal salvation and life: unbelieving and believing sinners.

The unbelieving have more hope to repent and be saved, than those who think they are believing Jesus for salvation, while disobeying Him for sinning with the devil.

The only believing they are doing, is believing they are still saved, whether doing good or evil.

There is no believing without obeying, even as there is no faith without evidence.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Until believing Jesus is seen outwardly in word or deed, then faith is dead being alone.

And there is no seeing the faith of Jesus at all, while sinning against Him for the devil.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. the faith of Jesus is the gift by which we are saved. Our own faith neither saves nor justifies us.

Jesus' faith is what is written in Scripture for all to obey. Our own faith only pertains to our personal walk with Him according to our personal conscience.

And if our faith we live by is contrary to His, so that we are found sinners against Him, then we are not justified by Him at all.

It is His faith we stand upon in fellowship with Him. Your or my personal faith about such matters of conscience as drinks, meats, holy days, etc...matter only to us in having a personal friendship with Jesus.

What verses lead you to believe that we are saved not by our faith, but by Jesus' faith.

How do you explain the following?

Acts 16:31
Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
Believe means to have faith in...


Luke 7:50 Jesus said:
Your faith has saved you, go in peace.
YOUR FAITH...


Hebrews 12:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
We are the faithful ones to preserve our soul.

Romans 10:9
if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
If we believe in our heart, we have faith. Our faith.


Romans 11:20
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
You stand by your faith.


Is it possible that Jesus and Paul didn't explain themselves properly?
Maybe you could post some verses stating that we are saved by Jesus' faith?

 

[Runmyramble]

Your teaching on believing in Jesus' death on the cross, but not going to obey Him is true.

Hearing and believing he Gospel is only the beginning of salvation, but until we obey the gospel, we are not justified by Christ.

The seed is sown by hearing with faith, but it does not take root, until we obey the faith.

The foundation of being saved and justified by Christ was not laid at the cross, but by the apostles receiving His gospel, doctrine, rule, and commandments.

The only work Jesus did on the cross was to endure being crucified bodily by man sinning against Him, and to endure being separated from the Father by the sins of the world taken upon His soul.

It is the work of the resurrection by which we are justified: we must believe His is resurrected and alive, in order to receive Him and obey Him.

Just believing that He died is nothing: dead faith alone by hearing only.

Until we take up our own cross for His name's sake, to be crucified to sinning, then His cross does nothing for us.

Childish people think they can piggy back on Jesus' cross to the grave and then be resurrected with Him, which is impossible since His own cross became decayed wood in the earth long ago.



There is no need for original languages to know the first principles of the doctrine of Christ and be saved and justified by Him.

Otherwise, it would not be saving faith by hearing, but by scholarship study.

And trying to weave languages study into the preaching of the gospel only serves to confuse the hearers.

The God who had all His Scripture written into the world, as preserved them all together in one book, and also into all languages of men, that all may hear and be saved by faith.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith to be saved and justified by Christ cometh not by original languages and manuscript study.

And in every single case that such things are brought into the first principles of Christ, they are to either justify sinning or to teach a created christ.

?

Your teaching on believing in Jesus' death on the cross, but not going to obey Him is true.

Yes RB...I like what you said about living by His life that justifies....(in so many words)
I believe that's what 1 Peter 3:21 is speaking about....comparing Baptism under the Law.....With Baptism under the Spirit...

My conclusion I was coming to years ago was...The New Covenant is for all people.
Example: like presidents change and their rules with them, we are to be Governed by
the new Covenant.

Which may simply be by the Spirit and not by letter..

It is thus Christ's life that leads us into fellowship with God..

......
Sometimes I feel entangled.....because it's hard to stop filtering things through how I was raised. But for myself until I looked up eternal life ...I would not have dug deeper. Until I looked up faith...I may have still saw it as mental.

With so many interpretation...and translations, and how words have changed meaning over time...I feel its important for pastors and teacher to interpret from the Greek ....But that's my opinion.

You seem very knowledgeable on this subject....so hopefully I can asked you some questions later...