Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

?

Yes RB...I like what you said about living by His life that justifies....(in so many words)
I believe that's what 1 Peter 3:21 is speaking about....comparing Baptism under the Law.....With Baptism under the Spirit...

Where is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins written of in the Law?

My conclusion I was coming to years ago was...The New Covenant is for all people.
Example: like presidents change and their rules with them, we are to be Governed by
the new Covenant.

Which may simply be by the Spirit and not by letter..

It is thus Christ's life that leads us into fellowship with God..

......
Sometimes I feel entangled.....because it's hard to stop filtering things through how I was raised. But for myself until I looked up eternal life ...I would not have dug deeper. Until I looked up faith...I may have still saw it as mental.

With so many interpretation...and translations, and how words have changed meaning over time...I feel its important for pastors and teacher to interpret from the Greek ....But that's my opinion.

You seem very knowledgeable on this subject....so hopefully I can asked you some questions later...

 

[rogerg]

You seem very knowledgeable on this subject....so hopefully I can asked you some questions later...

He is not leading you to/in the gospel of Christ, he is leading you to a different gospel. If you choose
to following his teaching, you place yourself into exceedingly great spiritual jeopardy

 

[Runmyramble]

What do you mean,
BY THE FAITH OF JESUS?

Do you mean that Jesus was faithful to Father in all ways and so we can trust on Him?

Or do you mean that we are saved by Jesus' faith and not our own?

Here I mean His faith, God
In a sense He had faith in Himself

But He was obedient to His father, even onto death, and in one passage raised Himself from the dead...therefore He lives forever to interceed for those who come to Him.

Both our faith, and the faith/faithfulness of Christ matter.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin and Christ was obedient to His father unto death...

God is not divided from His word.
This below is the way I see it and I can be wrong-
So now that Christ is the government (for lack of better words) King

Everything has to go through Him..
Hence if we have faith or are Loyal citizens then we are rewarded with the gift of life.

Where is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins written of in the Law?

Its not the Baptism in Jesus name...But the Baptisms required by the Law..that if they could keep would be Justified by saved.

 

[Runmyramble]

Here I mean His faith, God
In a sense He had faith in Himself

But He was obedient to His father, even onto death, and in one passage raised Himself from the dead...therefore He lives forever to interceed for those who come to Him.

Both our faith, and the faith/faithfulness of Christ matter.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin and Christ was obedient to His father unto death...

God is not divided from His word.
This below is the way I see it and I can be wrong-
So now that Christ is the government (for lack of better words) King

Everything has to go through Him..
Hence if we have faith or are Loyal citizens then we are rewarded with the gift of life.

Its not the Baptism in Jesus name...But the Baptisms required by the Law..that if they could keep would be Justified by saved.

What verses lead you to believe that we are saved not by our faith, but by Jesus' faith.

How do you explain the following?

Acts 16:31
Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
Believe means to have faith in...


Luke 7:50 Jesus said:
Your faith has saved you, go in peace.
YOUR FAITH...


Hebrews 12:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
We are the faithful ones to preserve our soul.

Romans 10:9
if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
If we believe in our heart, we have faith. Our faith.


Romans 11:20
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
You stand by your faith.


Is it possible that Jesus and Paul didn't explain themselves properly?
Maybe you could post some verses stating that we are saved by Jesus' faith?

Galatians 2:16 kjv

 

[Hopeful]

Here I mean His faith, God
In a sense He had faith in Himself

But He was obedient to His father, even onto death, and in one passage raised Himself from the dead...therefore He lives forever to interceed for those who come to Him.

Both our faith, and the faith/faithfulness of Christ matter.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin and Christ was obedient to His father unto death...

God is not divided from His word.
This below is the way I see it and I can be wrong-
So now that Christ is the government (for lack of better words) King

Everything has to go through Him..
Hence if we have faith or are Loyal citizens then we are rewarded with the gift of life.

Its not the Baptism in Jesus name...But the Baptisms required by the Law..that if they could keep would be Justified by saved.

What baptism is written of in the Law?
Can you cite the verse or verses demanding Jews must get baptized in order to follow the Law?

 

[GodsGrace]

Here I mean His faith, God
In a sense He had faith in Himself

I agree.
God certainly does have faith in Himself.
2 Timothy 2:13

But He was obedient to His father, even onto death, and in one passage raised Himself from the dead...therefore He lives forever to interceed for those who come to Him.

Both our faith, and the faith/faithfulness of Christ matter.

OK, I think you maybe should use the word FAITHFULNESS of Christ.
That makes sense.
That Christ had faith makes no sense to me...
IOW...what did He have faith in?
He's God...God doesn't need faith.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin and Christ was obedient to His father unto death...

God is not divided from His word.
This below is the way I see it and I can be wrong-
So now that Christ is the government (for lack of better words) King

I agree with this too.
Christ's government is called the Kingdom of God, it begins here on earth and was taught by Jesus.
Jesus certainly is the King of this Kingdom and we are the inhabitants of the Kingdom of God.

Everything has to go through Him..
Hence if we have faith or are Loyal citizens then we are rewarded with the gift of life.

Amen to that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Galatians 2:16 kjv

Oh boy.
You're switching on me again !

We are saved by the faithfulness of Jesus - to His Mission.
We are saved by our faith in Him.

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Bad translation.
Could you find another verse that states the above?
We cannot make a doctrine from one verse.


Galatians 2:16 NASB
16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 2:16 ASV
16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


I think it would be helpful if another verse could be found stating that we are saved by Jesus' faith.
Again...faith in what?

 

[rogerg]

Again...faith in what?

Jesus was fully man and fully God and so His faith had to exist on both levels. Regarding Jesus as a man,
we are informed in the Bible that His faith was in God the Father that He had promised that His soul would not be left in hell, neither would His flesh ever see corruption - that was His human faith. Being fully a man, yet being faithful, He willingly gave Himself over to spiritual death and hell to redeem the sin committed under the first testament.

[Psa 16:10 KJV] 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

[Act 2:27, 31 KJV]
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. ...
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

[Heb 9:15 KJV]
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I think it would be helpful if another verse could be found stating that we are saved by Jesus' faith.

See "by the faith of the Son of God" verse 20 following to satisfy your request

[Gal 20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was fully man and fully God and so His faith had to exist on both levels. Regarding Jesus as a man,
we are informed in the Bible that His faith was in God the Father that He had promised that His soul would not be left in hell, neither would His flesh ever see corruption - that was His human faith. Being fully a man, yet being faithful, He willingly gave Himself over to spiritual death and hell to redeem the sin committed under the first testament.

[Psa 16:10 KJV] 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

[Act 2:27, 31 KJV]
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. ...
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

[Heb 9:15 KJV]
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



See "by the faith of the Son of God" verse 20 following to satisfy your request

[Gal 20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You've quoted the same verse as the other poster.

This is because I really can't think of any other verse that would concur.

It is Our faith that saves us.
Not the faith of Jesus.

 

[jaybo]

You've quoted the same verse as the other poster.

This is because I really can't think of any other verse that would concur.

It is Our faith that saves us.
Not the faith of Jesus.

Actually it's God's gift to us. "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" It is His faith, given to us, not our faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually it's God's gift to us. "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" It is His faith, given to us, not our faith.

So we're not saved by our faith?
Where does it state in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by Jesus' faith?

 

[jaybo]

So we're not saved by our faith?
Where does it state in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by Jesus' faith?

It doesn't say we are saved by Jesus' faith. It says we are saved by God's grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

It doesn't say we are saved by Jesus' faith. It says we are saved by God's grace.

Read post 1110 and explain what it means.

 

[GodsGrace]

It doesn't say we are saved by Jesus' faith. It says we are saved by God's grace.

Of course we're saved by God's grace.
But by what?

 

[jaybo]

Of course we're saved by God's grace.
But by what?

Is this some kind of riddle? We're saved by God's grace.

 

[Hopeful]

You've quoted the same verse as the other poster.

This is because I really can't think of any other verse that would concur.

It is Our faith that saves us.
Not the faith of Jesus.

If Jesus hadn't had faith in God, and in what had been written, our own faith would be useless.

 

[Runmyramble]

What do you mean,
BY THE FAITH OF JESUS?

Do you mean that Jesus was faithful to Father in all ways and so we can trust on Him?

Or do you mean that we are saved by Jesus' faith and not our own?

Jesus became the source of salvation...
Through His obedience to God...

We are given His Spirit to live by.

One of the first aspects of salvation is to believe who Jesus is...the son of the living God......the type of belief that Abraham had...was He believed/obeyed God.

One could say we obey God when we believe His testimony concerning His son.

I agree.
God certainly does have faith in Himself.
2 Timothy 2:13



OK, I think you maybe should use the word FAITHFULNESS of Christ.
That makes sense.
That Christ had faith makes no sense to me...
IOW...what did He have faith in?
He's God...God doesn't need faith.



I agree with this too.
Christ's government is called the Kingdom of God, it begins here on earth and was taught by Jesus.
Jesus certainly is the King of this Kingdom and we are the inhabitants of the Kingdom of God.


Amen to that.

OK, I think you maybe should use the word FAITHFULNESS of Christ.
That makes sense.
That Christ had faith makes no sense to me...
IOW...what did He have faith in?
He's God...God doesn't need faith.

Jesus was man..and the man He was showed faith In God.

He is our role model.

Jesus obeyed His father. Is that not faith?
Abraham obeyed God- forerunner
Jesus came through Abraham..
And He would obey God

So then, what was Abraham's Faith? And who did He have faith in that He was credited righteousnes? This is kind of interesting to me for it parallels in a sense with why he was credited righteousness...He believed God for a son......interesting enough We obey God when we believe God concerning His son.

If Jesus did not obey God unto death where would we be? But He did and became the source of salvation to all who would believe

I'll say His faith and faithfulness run together...his faith in God, who He is, or who is the cause of Him being faithful.

Excuse me if I repeat...I sometimes fall asleep...and don't know if it has eraced...

 

[Runmyramble]

Oh boy.
You're switching on me again !

We are saved by the faithfulness of Jesus - to His Mission.
We are saved by our faith in Him.

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Bad translation.
Could you find another verse that states the above?
We cannot make a doctrine from one verse.


Galatians 2:16 NASB
16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 2:16 ASV
16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


I think it would be helpful if another verse could be found stating that we are saved by Jesus' faith.
Again...faith in what?

Romans 3
“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference”

Philippians
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[GodsGrace]

Is this some kind of riddle? We're saved by God's grace.

We're saved by God's love for the creatures He created.

No riddle.
Based on what?

Ephesians 2:8

You made it sound like we're saved by Jesus' faith and not ours. I've heard this from a few persons.

We Protestants keep coming up with new doctrine constantly.

Maybe I should become Orthodox!

 

[GodsGrace]

If Jesus hadn't had faith in God, and in what had been written, our own faith would be useless.

Whether or not Jesus had faith is debatable.
The question here is different.

I might start a thread on this because it's becoming confusing to me.

And I'm not easily confused.