Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rogerg]

Only those living now to do Jesus Fathers will get saved.( Matt 7:21) And must endure until their end doing that. Matt 24:13-- Only the righteous will be saved.( Psalm 37:29) And it is still by mercy and Grace. Gods view of what is wicked, differs from mans view--He gave all 2 lists of unacceptable sins at 1 Cor 6:9-11, And Galations 5:19-21--Paul mentions spiritism at Gal-The Greek word = Farmacia, thus drug addiction is apart of spiritism. So along with all the false god worship and those 2 lists=99% are not righteous in Gods view. Probably the reason, Jesus compared these last days to Noahs day(99.9% mislead) Luke 17:26--He as well teaches-FEW will find the road.

Nope, can't be:

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Runmyramble]

We must always have our faith according to Scripture.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11)

Therefore, Jesus' way is easy and light, especially when compared to the way of the world and the religions of man.

If we see it as hard, it is because of us, not because of Jesus' salvation and justification.

Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard. (Prov 13)

What is hard is seeking to please God while sinning, it's not possible.

And so, we must first acknowledge sinning has no place in Christ Jesus, then we must learn why, where, and how sinning begins.

It's not by a sin nature, because there is no such thing created by Christ, neither in heaven nor in man, nor is it the mortal body's fault, but rather it comes from the same place it came from within Lucifer, who is the first one to sin against God: Lust for sin comes from within the heart, not from the flesh, but rather from the spirit of man desiring to sin with the flesh.

And so, the solution is of course simple: Purify the heart first, that the life in the flesh may be clean.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Isaiah 55)

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23)

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10)

The battle therefore is not with the flesh, but within the heart, to choose being pure in heart by bringing all thoughts into subjection to Christ, or to choose taking thought for unrighteousness within the heart, which will in due time be sinned with the flesh.

The fight against sin for righteousness is spiritual, not carnal, and so the fight is won or lost within the heart and the mind of man.

If we are double hearted in Romans 7, we will be in the hard way of sinning against Jesus with knowledge, but if we purify the heart to become single-eyed upon Jesus only, then we are delivered into Romans 8 and cannot sin with the flesh, since there is no lust from the spirit to do so.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8)

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3)

The only way of Jesus is the easy and simple way of having a pure heart and clean conscience of not sinning against Him, first within the heart, and so also with the body.

The ongoing work, fight, and race is within, not without.

Trying to resist sinning with the flesh by the will of the flesh is failure at the start.

We resist the devil within the heart and mind by the Spirit, because that is where he attacks, and is where he is defeated.

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (Eph 6)

He flees not just from us, but from us walking hand in hand with Jesus, How can the devil tempt any man to lust, who loves supping with Jesus in the kingdom of God within?

It's simple: purify the mind and guard the heart from taking thought for sinning, and so keep the body from doing so.

All it takes is the power and Spirit of Christ Jesus within us. to do so daily without fail.

Yep, that all it takes: the power of the Almighty God and Christ Jesus within.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)

People who are still taken into sin at the will of the devil, are not being overtaken by a sin nature of the flesh, there being no such thing, but are just not exercising the power of Christ to resist taking any such thought to do so.

The thoughts certainly come to mind, as the fowls of the air swooping down to rob Abraham of his sacrifice pieces, but Jesus commands us today to chase them all away and take no thought for them.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matthew 6)

The true secret to all this is simply caring only for the inward battle at hand, not for any imagined battle tomorrow, which may never even come.

When any Christian begins to fight the good fight within by the faith and power of Jesus Christ, he or she will then know where the fight is won, and knows it is as simple and easy as quenching the fiery darts at the door: DOA.

No man sins with the flesh, who did not want to from the heart. The mortal body is just mortal not sinful.

​

​

Very well spoken....❤

 

[Runmyramble]

We must always have our faith according to Scripture.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11)

Therefore, Jesus' way is easy and light, especially when compared to the way of the world and the religions of man.

If we see it as hard, it is because of us, not because of Jesus' salvation and justification.

Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard. (Prov 13)

What is hard is seeking to please God while sinning, it's not possible.

And so, we must first acknowledge sinning has no place in Christ Jesus, then we must learn why, where, and how sinning begins.

It's not by a sin nature, because there is no such thing created by Christ, neither in heaven nor in man, nor is it the mortal body's fault, but rather it comes from the same place it came from within Lucifer, who is the first one to sin against God: Lust for sin comes from within the heart, not from the flesh, but rather from the spirit of man desiring to sin with the flesh.

And so, the solution is of course simple: Purify the heart first, that the life in the flesh may be clean.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Isaiah 55)

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23)

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10)

The battle therefore is not with the flesh, but within the heart, to choose being pure in heart by bringing all thoughts into subjection to Christ, or to choose taking thought for unrighteousness within the heart, which will in due time be sinned with the flesh.

The fight against sin for righteousness is spiritual, not carnal, and so the fight is won or lost within the heart and the mind of man.

If we are double hearted in Romans 7, we will be in the hard way of sinning against Jesus with knowledge, but if we purify the heart to become single-eyed upon Jesus only, then we are delivered into Romans 8 and cannot sin with the flesh, since there is no lust from the spirit to do so.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8)

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3)

The only way of Jesus is the easy and simple way of having a pure heart and clean conscience of not sinning against Him, first within the heart, and so also with the body.

The ongoing work, fight, and race is within, not without.

Trying to resist sinning with the flesh by the will of the flesh is failure at the start.

We resist the devil within the heart and mind by the Spirit, because that is where he attacks, and is where he is defeated.

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (Eph 6)

He flees not just from us, but from us walking hand in hand with Jesus, How can the devil tempt any man to lust, who loves supping with Jesus in the kingdom of God within?

It's simple: purify the mind and guard the heart from taking thought for sinning, and so keep the body from doing so.

All it takes is the power and Spirit of Christ Jesus within us. to do so daily without fail.

Yep, that all it takes: the power of the Almighty God and Christ Jesus within.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)

People who are still taken into sin at the will of the devil, are not being overtaken by a sin nature of the flesh, there being no such thing, but are just not exercising the power of Christ to resist taking any such thought to do so.

The thoughts certainly come to mind, as the fowls of the air swooping down to rob Abraham of his sacrifice pieces, but Jesus commands us today to chase them all away and take no thought for them.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matthew 6)

The true secret to all this is simply caring only for the inward battle at hand, not for any imagined battle tomorrow, which may never even come.

When any Christian begins to fight the good fight within by the faith and power of Jesus Christ, he or she will then know where the fight is won, and knows it is as simple and easy as quenching the fiery darts at the door: DOA.

No man sins with the flesh, who did not want to from the heart. The mortal body is just mortal not sinful.

​

​

Interesting too RB
Is what or who should our faith be in?
Sounds like trusting who Jesus is....

 

[RBDERRICK]

You talk about following scripture but then where is love in your analysis.
Without love we are a clanging symbol, an empty vessel.

Purifying the mind, amen, following the Spirit, Amen.
"The true secret to all this is simply caring only for the inward battle at hand"
This sounds like a personal asceticism rather than a victorious walk in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Doing right begins with not sinning.

Doing good begins with not doing evil.

Loving begins with not hating.

You are mistaking loving, and loving to do it.

We love in deed and in truth, even if not in desire and feeling.

Purifying the mind, amen, following the Spirit, Amen.
"The true secret to all this is simply caring only for the inward battle at hand"
This sounds like a personal asceticism rather than a victorious walk in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Without supping with Jesus within, then that is true, and is only mind-control and power of positive thinking, which man can do for a corruptible crown, but the saints do for incorruptible in Christ.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I do so for fellowship with Jesus in the Light, not just in some things for success' sake, but in all things for Christ's sake.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Interesting too RB
Is what or who should our faith be in?
Sounds like trusting who Jesus is....

He is the Lord and God with power to do so, and the One worth doing so.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Without Jesus I simply wouldn't care. Just trying to live a better life was never worth it to me.

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die

 

[RBDERRICK]

Many seem to believe that entrance into Gods kingdom is handed to them by a man telling them they are saved. It does not work that way.

It's called being 'gifted' salvation.

I learned long ago not to trust in teaching with men's own words and not those of Scripture.

And I particularly despise being 'gifted' as charismatic children-talk.

Whenever someone uses that word, I immediately dismiss it as silly words of man's wisdom, along with whatever teaching they are trying to pas off for doctrine of Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Those who become saved, are saved by God only through His mercy and grace -- in spite of themselves, not because of it.

Jesus leads, but we must follow.
We have that part to play in our own salvation.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus leads, but we must follow.
We have that part to play in our own salvation.

Don't believe that is what we are told by the Bible. Instead, it informs that salvation is His gift in its entirety

 

[Hopeful]

Don't believe that is what we are told by the Bible. Instead, it informs that salvation is His gift in its entirety

Here is the verse I was thinking of when I posted...
"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)
"What shall we do?"
Your answer is "nothing"?
Peter had this answer..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

 

[keiw1]

It's called being 'gifted' salvation.

I learned long ago not to trust in teaching with men's own words and not those of Scripture.

And I particularly despise being 'gifted' as charismatic children-talk.

Whenever someone uses that word, I immediately dismiss it as silly words of man's wisdom, along with whatever teaching they are trying to pas off for doctrine of Christ.

Jesus is clear at Matt 7:21--Only those living now to do his Fathers will over their own will get to enter his kingdom. This is Jesus Fathers will=John 4:22-24

 

[rogerg]

Here is the verse I was thinking of when I posted...
"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)
"What shall we do?"
Your answer is "nothing"?
Peter had this answer..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Yes, my answer indeed is nothing.
[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

What those in the verse did were as a result of being saved but not its cause - salvation had already happened to them. Those who did not respond in the same way as they, didn't, because they hadn't become saved, nor did they have the Holy Spirit. To be "pricked in their heart", can only occur after someone has been given a new heart:

[Eze 36:26-27 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
[2Co 3:3 KJV] 3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

I can understand how you came to the conclusion that you did. However, I would suggest the things mentioned
in that verse must further be explained and perceived through the lens of/in other verses. For example, the hearing mentioned is spiritual hearing, not physical hearing. To be able to hear spiritually (and only the saved/born again can),
they would need first to have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Repentance is repentance from dead works. It is only because of/and through Christ's blood which had been applied by God to those saved, does someone repent from their works: The blood of Christ is that which makes that someone repent of their dead works unto the trusting Christ as the only Saviour.

[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 9:14 KJV] 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Baptism is of the Spirit, not of the flesh or of man:

[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Their ears had first been "blessed" by God in order for them to be able to hear spiritually:

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus is clear at Matt 7:21--Only those living now to do his Fathers will over their own will get to enter his kingdom. This is Jesus Fathers will=John 4:22-24

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[jaybo]

Jesus is clear at Matt 7:21--Only those living now to do his Fathers will over their own will get to enter his kingdom. This is Jesus Fathers will=John 4:22-24

You do know that when Jesus is talking in the gospels, He is talking to unsaved Jews, correct?

 

[keiw1]

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

At Matt 7:21 shows clearly who are the ones you speak of-no others.

 

[keiw1]

You do know that when Jesus is talking in the gospels, He is talking to unsaved Jews, correct?

Jesus died for all mankind- At that certain point it was just Israel, but after gentiles were included. Those words go for all. God and his son are not impartial. Israel was cut off of being Gods chosen-Matt 23:38

 

[rogerg]

At Matt 7:21 shows clearly who are the ones you speak of-no others.

Christ ALONE was the "one". He achieved the will of the Father. No one else could. By
Christ fulling God's will He entered into the kingdom, by which, do all those whom the Father had given Him enter in.

Matthew 7:21 — The New International Version (NIV)​

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[keiw1]

Christ ALONE was the "one". He achieved the will of the Father. No one else could. By
Christ fulling God's will He entered into the kingdom, by which, do all those whom the Father had given Him enter in.

Matthew 7:21 — The New International Version (NIV)​

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jesus went on to say why all would not be allowed-verse 22-23--They worked iniquity= practiced a sin. Yes all raised up to judgement.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, my answer indeed is nothing.
[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.What those in the verse did were as a result of being saved but not its cause - salvation had already happened to them. Those who did not respond in the same way as they, didn't, because they hadn't become saved, nor did they have the Holy Spirit. To be "pricked in their heart", can only occur after someone has been given a new heart:

You seem to be unaware that the "works" written of here, and other places, refer to the works of the Law...ie. circumcisions, dietary rules, feast keeping, etc

[Eze 36:26-27 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
[2Co 3:3 KJV] 3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
I can understand how you came to the conclusion that you did. However, I would suggest the things mentioned
in that verse must further be explained and perceived through the lens of/in other verses. For example, the hearing mentioned is spiritual hearing, not physical hearing. To be able to hear spiritually (and only the saved/born again can),
they would need first to have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Repentance is repentance from dead works. It is only because of/and through Christ's blood which had been applied by God to those saved, does someone repent from their works: The blood of Christ is that which makes that someone repent of their dead works unto the trusting Christ as the only Saviour.
[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 9:14 KJV] 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Baptism is of the Spirit, not of the flesh or of man:
[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

That is the gift of the Holy Ghost God grants folks who have done the repentance and water baptism Peter commanded in Acts 2:38.
In 1 Cor 6:11 both are mentioned together..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Their ears had first been "blessed" by God in order for them to be able to hear spiritually:

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Hopeful]

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

...BY THE washing of regeneration AND...
Again both baptisms are alluded to.

 

[Hopeful]

You do know that when Jesus is talking in the gospels, He is talking to unsaved Jews, correct?

Do you suppose the unconverted Jews' fate will differ from the fate of unconverted Gentiles?
I don't.
Besides, the ones not allowed in were sinners, not Jew or Gentile.