Why do Trinitarians think Jesus is God? (From a Biblical Unitarian)

[King David]

You're going to rely on English to try to overthrow the teaching of the Church for well over 1,000 years before English even existed as a language?!?

It has nothing to do with English. That's how trinitarians have been describing the "godhead" since its development. In Greek it's three hypostases in one ousia - which as I've already explained leads to the teaching of three gods.

to try to overthrow the teaching of the Church for well over 1,000 years before English even existed as a language?!?

You say that like it actually means something. Well I hope you're not a Protestant because up until a few centuries ago there was no such thing as a Protestant. Such as thing was never even imagined. For about 1,200 it was the teaching of the church that if you broke off from "the church" you were a heretic. Also, the reason the doctrine of the trinity has been accepted for the past 1,700 years is due to trinitarians silencing their opponents however they could including excommunicating, torturing, murdering, and imposing any other form of punishment on non-trinitarian Christians and non-Christians.

 

[King David]

The passage doesn’t say anything about Him being “made” anything. You are confused again.

That's precisely what's implied which is that by his fear of God he will be righteous and will be full of wisdom.

He was filled with the Spirit of the Lord. But again, you are confused. The Latin Vulate was a Latin translation, not English. My point is the same as it was with the LXX.

Besides the fact that you misquoted what the Vulgate says, it being a Latin translation is irrelevant to the conversation.

Notice that His charge was written in three different languages (to avoid any possible confusion) and not a one of them said anything about Him being crucified as Messiah, Christ, anointed one or Davidic.

And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, “ THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”Matthew 27:37 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 27:37&version=NASB

One charge in three languages. Very clear, right?

People aren’t crucified over an implied charge.

First off, the trial before Pilate was not the trial I was speaking of in the first place. Before being delivered up to Pilate, Jesus was brought before the Jewish Sanhedrin and the Jews judged him their before bringing him to Pilate. It's described in Mark 14:53-65 and there's not a peep about anyone accusing Jesus of being God but they do accuse him of claiming to be the Messiah and the Son of God.

 

[Razeontherock]

It has nothing to do with English. That's how trinitarians have been describing the "godhead" since its development. In Greek it's three hypostases in one ousia - which as I've already explained leads to the teaching of three gods.

You cannot demonstrate the claim that Trinity teaches 3 Gods. What you have been doing is stating you disagree with the notion that there are 3 Gods, and we agree.

You say that like it actually means something.

That type of attitude is not appropriate anywhere on CF. How about Scripture, instead? Jude 1:3

 

[King David]

You cannot demonstrate the claim that Trinity teaches 3 Gods. What you have been doing is stating you disagree with the notion that there are 3 Gods, and we agree.

Yes I can. Three divine persons with three divine minds and three divine wills who are all three divinely eternal and who all three interact with each other with each having their own conscience is by definition three divine gods. And as already explained, three persons who share the same essence doesn't make them one something. Three dogs who share the same essence which is "dog" is nevertheless three dogs. Three humans are three persons who are one in essence but that doesn't change the fact that they are three humans. Zeus, Poseidon, and Athena are three divine persons who are one in essence which is "god" but it doesn't change the fact that they are still three gods.

Jude

Okay then. Why does Scripture over nine times call the Father the God of Jesus? If Jesus has a God then he cannot be God. Why does 1 Peter 1:20 say that Jesus was "foreknown before the foundation of the world"? If Jesus was "foreknown" at one point then that means he didn't always exist otherwise the meaning of the word "foreknown" is meaningless. You can't be eternal or be God if you were "foreknown."

 

[Razeontherock]

. It's described in Mark 14:53-56 and there's not a peep about anyone accusing Jesus of being God but they do accuse him of claiming to be the Messiah and the Son of God.

Wow. You're going to ignore Scripture even while you quote it, just like you ignore that English, Latin, Greek and Hebrew are all different languages. I see the pattern here, and it's not how fruitful discussion transpires.

A reasonable discussion necessarily includes Mark 14:62 as part of Jesus' trial before the Sanhedrin, and notices that "sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" does not describe ordinary human experience, but denotes Divinity.

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes I can. Three divine persons with three divine minds and three divine wills who are all three divinely eternal and who all three interact with each other with each having their own conscience is by definition three divine gods.

That's not what Trinity teaches. Not even close. Never has been.

You are tilting at windmills. I am hoping you will find the exercise tedious, and instead turn to Scripture and find times of refreshing. I suggest John 17 as a really great place to reliably find that, and hold it to be the best sermon ever preached; note also it focuses on Unity, and that this Unity BEGINS in the Godhead, thoroughly smashing the concept you're latched onto here.

John 1 is always where I point new believers first, and you've obviously missed the thrust of that passage, too. Part of that problem may be due to thinking that the Greek logos can be accurately translated into one English word, or even a phrase. It can't. It is an extensive topic in itself. John first describes Jesus as "the logos." Rather than tediously pursuing the mixed up ideas here in this thread, why not look up logos and gain insight into what John was saying? It's interesting, and rich!

 

[King David]

Wow. You're going to ignore Scripture even while you quote it, just like you ignore that English, Latin, Greek and Hebrew are all different languages. I see the pattern here, and it's not how fruitful discussion transpires.

A reasonable discussion necessarily includes Mark 14:62 as part of Jesus' trial before the Sanhedrin, and notices that "sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" does not describe ordinary human experience, but denotes Divinity.

You're ignoring the passage that you just referenced. If Jesus is sitting "on the right hand of power" then he is by definition not that "power." Jesus coming on the clouds in no way denotes divinity. It signals his triumphant return as the King of kings and Lord of lords who will establish the Kingdom of God on earth. I mean if you really want to go there Joshua commanded the sun and the moon to stop or slow down. Are we to believe Joshua is divine?

That's not what Trinity teaches. Not even close. Never has been.

Oh really? What did I get wrong?

You are tilting at windmills. I am hoping you will find the exercise tedious, and instead turn to Scripture and find times of refreshing. I suggest John 17 as a really great place to reliably find that, and hold it to be the best sermon ever preached; note also it focuses on Unity, and that this Unity BEGINS in the Godhead, thoroughly smashing the concept you're latched onto here.

Oh I love John 17 especially John 17:1-3 where Jesus calls the Father the only true God and then makes a distinction between the one he just called the only true God and himself.

John 1 is always where I point new believers first, and you've obviously missed the thrust of that passage, too. Part of that problem may be due to thinking that the Greek logos can be accurately translated into one English word, or even a phrase. It can't. It is an extensive topic in itself. John first describes Jesus as "the logos." Rather than tediously pursuing the mixed up ideas here in this thread, why not look up logos and gain insight into what John was saying? It's interesting, and rich!

You point people to John 1 but I bet you never point people to 1 John 1 which is John's own commentary on John which as I already explained gives the proper interpretation of John 1.

 

[King David]

that argument makes Jesus a mere angel.

Jesus said I AM, in the ergo um, in Hebrew that is a Name for God. cant be God and claim that and lie

Welcome to the discussion. I explained this to someone else but I'll copy/paste it here for your convenience:
The context of that verse is that Jesus is telling the Jews that if they believe that he is the one (the Messiah) that they will never die (gain eternal life). He then continues to say that Abraham **foresaw** his day (verse 56). The Jews then asked him what he meant by that. Jesus replied by saying that before Abraham was, I am [the Messiah]-(emphasis added). The phrase "I am" is translated from the Greek phrase "ego eimi" which is used by people all throughout Scripture. The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). Jesus is saying that before Abraham was even born, he was the King Messiah in the mind and divine plan of the Father Almighty which fits in with other Scripture such as 1 Peter 1:20 which says that Jesus was "foreknown before the foundation of the world" and Revelation 13:8 which says that Jesus was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[Razeontherock]

Jesus coming on the clouds in no way denotes divinity.
.

When's the last time you saw someone arrive by cloud? You consider this an ordinary means of transportation?

 

[Razeontherock]

Jesus is saying that before Abraham was even born, he was the King Messiah in the mind and divine plan of the Father Almighty

This is a textbook example of eisegesis. Looking at what the text actually says instead yields a rather different understanding, which agrees with not only John 1 and 1 John 1 but also with the whole of Scripture; Christ exists eternally from the beginning, as Son. The Incarnation happened at a specific time, with the man, Jesus.

Kinda mind-boggling!

 

[Razeontherock]

Btw welcome to CF, and nice username! King David is quite central to any Jew I've discussed things with, at least as much so as Moses and Elijah. So often I encounter Christians that seem to miss this fact.

Have you familiarized yourself with our Community guidelines and ToS?

On a positive note I can say I don't see you attacking anyone, and you clearly articulate your position. These are welcome changes from the way we usually see new members who come here to argue. Hopefully you have more in mind than just that?

We see Jesus' claims to Divinity throughout Scripture, clear as a bell, and unmistakable. You don't.

God surely understands why that is, and fortunately none of us sit so high as to be responsible for doing anything about it.

What now?

 

[King David]

This is a textbook example of eisegesis. Looking at what the text actually says instead yields a rather different understanding, which agrees with not only John 1 and 1 John 1 but also with the whole of Scripture; Christ exists eternally from the beginning, as Son. The Incarnation happened at a specific time, with the man, Jesus.

Kinda mind-boggling!

How does 1 John 1 support the preexistent "Word" as a person? It clearly calls the "Word" a "that" (it can also be translated as "what") in 1 John 1:1. A person is not a "that" or a "what."
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/1.htm
And the Greek word there is translated as such everywhere in Scripture to denote something that is not a person:
https://biblehub.com/greek/o_3739.htm

We see Jesus' claims to Divinity throughout Scripture, clear as a bell, and unmistakable. You don't.

Jesus never claimed divinity (I know, I've read it) which is why the Jews never accused him of doing so during his trial. Jesus is not eternal if 1 Peter 1:20 says that Jesus was foreknown. You can't be "foreknown" and be eternal. Why did this trinity discussion never come up during the early Church? Since clearly no Jew or anyone who had converted to Judaism thought God was a trinity you think they would have addressed this controversial issue. I find it hard to believe that they enacted a council addressing circumcision but they didn't think it neccessary to have a council addressing the very nature of the One true God. The reason they didn't have to address it is because there was no change in understanding from the orthodox Jewish understanding of God which is that He is strictly one. Even Jesus affirmed the theology of a non-trinitarian Jew in Mark 12:28-29. Unless Jesus was holding three fingers behind his back while he was quoting the Shema.

 

[jasonc]

Welcome to the discussion. I explained this to someone else but I'll copy/paste it here for your convenience:
The context of that verse is that Jesus is telling the Jews that if they believe that he is the one (the Messiah) that they will never die (gain eternal life). He then continues to say that Abraham **foresaw** his day (verse 56). The Jews then asked him what he meant by that. Jesus replied by saying that before Abraham was, I am [the Messiah]-(emphasis added). The phrase "I am" is translated from the Greek phrase "ego eimi" which is used by people all throughout Scripture. The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). Jesus is saying that before Abraham was even born, he was the King Messiah in the mind and divine plan of the Father Almighty which fits in with other Scripture such as 1 Peter 1:20 which says that Jesus was "foreknown before the foundation of the world" and Revelation 13:8 which says that Jesus was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

I'm a former non trinitarian.I know your arguments, I grew up as one .

 

[King David]

I'm a former non trinitarian.I know your arguments, I grew up as one .

What made you change your mind? I mean the the Father is called the God of Jesus about eleven times. Jesus never claimed to be God which is why the Jews didn't accuse him of making such a claim during his trial before the Sanhedrin. And as I've already shown the term "god" in the Hebrew language and culture didn't always mean deity and in fact refers to many people who are non-deity including all the judges and spiritual leaders of ancient Israel as well as Moses, Abraham, Hezekiah, the King of Babylon, Satan, etc. If you were a Jehovah's Witness then I could understand you leaving that will the whole Jesus supposedly being Michael thing as well as some other problems in their theology.

 

[LovethroughDove]

How does 1 John 1 support the preexistent "Word" as a person? It clearly calls the "Word" a "that" (it can also be translated as "what") in 1 John 1:1. A person is not a "that" or a "what."

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

So, they have a whole verse (verse 2) that says He (the Word) was with God in the beginning

 

[JLB]

My study of Sacred Scripture has shown me that Jesus never claimed to be God nor did any of the Apostles

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1


The Apostle Peter plainly stated Jesus is our God and Savior.


Jesus Himself plainly stated He is God.

• I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13



JLB

 

[King David]

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

So, they have a whole verse (verse 2) that says He (the Word) was with God in the beginning

The "He" there in verse two of the translation you quoted is simply the translators interpretation of the Greek word "houtos" which is only translated as "he" if a person is in view. So if the translators things that "the word" in John 1 is a person then yes they are going to translate it as "he." But as I stated in my original post the first eight English translations of the Bible which were based off of the Greek text before the King James all call "the word" an "it" in John 1:1-4. You can read the Geneva, Tyndale, etc and they all call "the word" an "it" in John 1:1-4. The reason they do that is because they read 1 John 1 which is John's own commentary on John where he calls "the word" a "that"(or a "what") in the opening of his first epistle.

 

[LovethroughDove]

The "He" there in verse two of the translation you quoted is simply the translators interpretation of the Greek word "houtos" which is only translated as "he" if a person is in view. So if the translators things that "the word" in John 1 is a person then yes they are going to translate it as "he." But as I stated in my original post the first eight English translations of the Bible which were based off of the Greek text before the King James all call "the word" an "it" in John 1. You can read Geneva, Tyndale, etc and they all call "the word" an "it" in John 1:1-4.

I'm going go with "he".

 

[King David]

I'm going go with "he".

Why would you do that when 1 John 1, which is John's own commentary on John, calls the word a "that"(or a "what") in 1 John 1:1?

 

[King David]

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1


The Apostle Peter plainly stated Jesus is our God and Savior.

As I explained in my original post, it must be understood in the secondary sense. In the Hebrew culture and language the term "god" for them didn't always mean what we think when we think of the word "god" and it was used on a much wider spectrum. The Hebrew words usually used for God in the OT were "elohim," "el," or "eloah"-all which mean a mighty one or a master/ruler or a great one or something of that nature and it didn't always necessarily mean what we think of when we use the word "god." Moses was called an elohim in Exodus 7:1. All the judges and spiritual leaders of ancient Israel were called elohim (see Exodus 21:6 in Hebrew). Abraham was called an elohim in Genesis 23:6 which many translations translate as "mighty one" or "mighty prince." This Hebrew thinking is reflected by the Jewish Apostles where even Satan was called by the Apostle Paul the "god of this age" in 2 Corinthians 4:4. And the obvious meaning of that is that Satan is the master and mighty one of this current age since he is controlling mankind through sin. But you mentioned Isaiah 9:6. The Babylonian king was called an "el" in Ezekiel 31:11 which is almost always translated in this verse as "mighty one" or "ruler." The Trinitarian bias of most translators can be clearly seen by comparing Isaiah 9:6 (el = “God”) with Ezekiel 31:11 (el = “ruler” or "mighty one"). If calling the Messiah "el" makes him God, then the Babylonian king would be God also. You were either called "god" if you represented God or you were called "god" if you were a "mighty one" or a "master/ruler" which is what "god" meant to the Hebrews. Jesus even points out the fact in John chapter 10 verse 34 that the Jews were called gods and he actually quotes Psalm 82 which was understood to be spoken by God, who sits in judgment on the judges and magistrates whom He has appointed, and gives the name of “gods” (elohim) as representing Himself. And if the judges and rulers of ancient Israel were called "god" you can bet that the King Messiah who has been given all authority in heaven and on earth will also be called "god."