Why do Trinitarians think Jesus is God? (From a Biblical Unitarian)

[jasonc]

What made you change your mind? I mean the the Father is called the God of Jesus about eleven times. Jesus never claimed to be God which is why the Jews didn't accuse him of making such a claim during his trial before the Sanhedrin. And as I've already shown the term "god" in the Hebrew language and culture didn't always mean deity and in fact refers to many people who are non-deity including all the judges and spiritual leaders of ancient Israel as well as Moses, Abraham, Hezekiah, the King of Babylon, Satan, etc. If you were a Jehovah's Witness then I could understand you leaving that will the whole Jesus supposedly being Michael thing as well as some other problems in their theology.

Uhm ,rabbis do see the Elohim as plural.im.also Jewish as my dad was raised.in the Temple.

In the beginning was the Word,and Word with God, the Word was God. .And the Word became Flesh and dwelt amongst us.

If Jesus was only man ,he lied as he said no man hath seen the Father,yet he claimed to have seen the Father, if He was only an Angel then the bible is false as no angel can be worshipped.

Yes I was a jw ,but the archangel issue wasn't why.

 

[King David]

Jesus Himself plainly stated He is God.

• I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13

He didn't say he was God. He said he was "the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." - which by the way all three of those phrases are synonymous because "Alpha" and "Omega" are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. It would be like saying he is the A and the Z.

In the Old Testament, God truly was “the First and the Last.” The meaning of the title is not specifically given, but the key to its meaning is given in Isaiah 41:4, in which God says He has called forth the generations of men, and was with the first of them and is with the last of them.

Isaiah 41:4:
“Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am he.” Thus, the Bible connects the phrase “the First and the Last” with calling forth the generations.

While God was the one who called forth the generations in the Old Testament, He has now conferred that authority on His Son. Thus, it is easy to see why the Lord Jesus is called “the First and the Last” in the book of Revelation. It will be Jesus Christ who will call forth the generations of people from the grave to enter in to everlasting life. God gave Jesus authority to raise the dead (John 5:25-27). His voice will raise all dead Christians (1 Thess. 4:16 and 17), and he will change our bodies into new glorious bodies (Phil. 3:20 and 21). However, even when Jesus said he had the authority to raise the dead, he never claimed he had that authority inherently because he was God. He always said that his Father had given authority to him. While teaching about his authority, Jesus Christ was very clear about who was the ultimate authority: “The Son can do nothing by himself…the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in himself. And He has given him authority to judge” (John 5:19,22,26 and 27). If Jesus had the authority to raise the dead because he was in some way God, he never said so. He said he had his authority because his Father gave it to him. With the authority to raise the generations came the title associated with the existence of the generations, and thus after his resurrection Jesus Christ is called “the First and the Last.”

 

[JohnDB]

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[King David]

Uhm ,rabbis do see the Elohim as plural.im.also Jewish as my dad was raised.in the Temple.

It's important to know that in the Hebrew language, plural nouns do not always mean plural in number but a plural in power or majesty. The Hebrew word "Elohim" is a majestic plural and indicates God's sovereignty and power. The ending im usually indicates a plurality. Keep in mind that el or eloha means "a mighty one" or "force." As the pagans of the time believed in one god with power over this, one god with power over that, the Torah makes it clear that the entire creation was performed by Elohim, (i.e. by "All Forces" or "Almighty"). So when you see the word "Elohim" used for God it's basically calling Him the Almighty. Another example in the Hebrew Bible would be that to refer to a leader or person of honor, speakers in the Tanakh frequently use the plural of the noun adon("lord"), which is "adonim." If you were to translate it literally it would be "lords" but when applied to one individual it's suppose to imply "a great lord" or "lord of lords."

Several biblical characters are called "adonim:"

Abraham — Gen 24:9, 10, 51
Potiphar — Gen 39:2, 3, 7, 8, etc.
Joseph — Gen 42:30, 33; 44:8
Pharaoh — Gen 40:1
Saul — 1 Sam 26:15, 16; 29:4, 10, etc.
Nabal — 1 Sam 25:14, 17
David — 2 Sam 11:9; 1 Kgs 1:11, 33, 43, 47, etc.
Jonathan — 2 Sam 16:3; 20:38
Ahab — 1 Kgs 18:8, 11, 14; 2 Kgs 9:7
Elijah — 2 Kgs 2:3, 5, 16; 5:25
Ben-Hadad — (king of Syria) 2 Kgs 6:22, 23, 32; Isa 37:4
Hezekiah — 2 Kgs 18:27; 19:6; Isa 36:12
Messianic King — Ps 45:11, "he is your adonim, bow down to him"

In the beginning was the Word,and Word with God, the Word was God. .And the Word became Flesh and dwelt amongst us

I believe I already explained this in my original post.

If Jesus was only man ,he lied as he said no man hath seen the Father,yet he claimed to have seen the Father, if He was only an Angel then the bible is false as no angel can be worshipped.

The key to understanding John 6:46 is knowing that the phrase “seen the Father” does not refer to seeing with the eye, but to “knowing the Father.” Jesus knew God, not because he lived with God before his birth, but because God revealed Himself more clearly to Jesus than to anyone else. Jesus made this clear in other teachings, saying, “For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does…” (John 5:20a).

In both Hebrew and Greek, words translated “see” also mean “to know, to realize.” The Hebrew word ra’ah is used of both seeing with the eyes and knowing something, or perceiving it (Gen. 16:4; Exod. 32:1; Num. 20:29). Similarly, the Greek word horao, translated “see” in John 1:18, 6:46; and 3 John 1:11, can mean “to see with the eyes” or “to see with the mind, to perceive, know.” Even in English, one of the definitions for “see” is “to know or understand.” For example, when two people are discussing something, one might say to the other, “I see what you mean.”

The usage of “see” as it pertains to knowing is found in many places in the New Testament. For example, Jesus said to Philip, “…Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father…” (John 14:9). Here again the word “see” is used to indicate knowing. Anyone who knew Christ (not just those who “saw” him) would know the Father. In fact, Christ had made that clear two verses earlier when he said to Philip, “If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him” (John 14:7). In this verse Jesus says that those who know him have “seen” the Father.

 

[King David]

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I believe I already explained this in my original post.

 

[JohnDB]

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Good enough for me to to call Jesus "God".

 

[King David]

if He was only an Angel then the bible is false as no angel can be worshipped.

Jesus is certainly not an angel nor is he God. He is God's chosen King. Jesus was never worshipped as God he was worshipped as the Davidic King.

 

[King David]

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Good enough for me to to call Jesus "God".

If Jesus was "given" authority then that means he is not God.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Why would you do that when 1 John 1, which is John's own commentary on John, calls the word a "that"(or a "what") in 1 John 1:1?

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life.

Because they have heard him, seen him and touched him. Remember, John was with him.

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace of truth.

 

[JohnDB]

I believe I already explained this in my original post.

Sure...and I don't follow YOUR teaching. Nor do any of the other members. This is a conservative historical Christian website. We've had many people come here and try to persuade us and/or accuse us of all kinds of heresies and lack of dilligence in studying the scriptures.

Which simply is untrue.

And because we don't know you...we don't know that you care anything about us except that you believe that we have been poorly trained, studied, or brainwashed. We are a family here...
And those who have gracefully been engaging you are my brothers.
They have more grace than I have because I would ignore you out of the gate.
They are trying to help you stop torturing scriptures to get it to say what you wish...but what it truly says. We are never going to agree with what you are promoting. Obviously you knew that.

So why are you here?

 

[LovethroughDove]

I guess JohnDB posted that scripture

 

[JohnDB]

I guess JohnDB posted that scripture

The Apostle John is my favorite theologian.

He answered every heresy that mankind came up with. This isn't a new one... very very old and John slammed the lid on it in the first chapter.
And eating poached eggs with your left hand while standing on your head blindfolded doesn't make it say anything but what we already know to be true...

 

[Razeontherock]

Why would you do that when 1 John 1, which is John's own commentary on John, calls the word a "that"(or a "what") in 1 John 1:1?

Immaterial. Trying to use English nuance to overturn the historic teaching of the Church for well over 1,000 years before English even existed as a language is irrational.

 

[King David]

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life.

Because they have heard him, seen him and touched him. Remember, John was with him.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace of truth.

The "that" which was from the beginning (the Gospel of eternal life) was eventually realized in the person of Christ which we have "heard," "seen," and "touched."

 

[King David]

Sure...and I don't follow YOUR teaching. Nor do any of the other members. This is a conservative historical Christian website. We've had many people come here and try to persuade us and/or accuse us of all kinds of heresies and lack of dilligence in studying the scriptures.

Which simply is untrue.

And because we don't know you...we don't know that you care anything about us except that you believe that we have been poorly trained, studied, or brainwashed. We are a family here...
And those who have gracefully been engaging you are my brothers.
They have more grace than I have because I would ignore you out of the gate.
They are trying to help you stop torturing scriptures to get it to say what you wish...but what it truly says. We are never going to agree with what you are promoting. Obviously you knew that.

So why are you here?

Well I'm concerned because almost all trinitarians believe that if you're not a trinitarian then you're not saved even though they cannot provide clear (not ambiguous) Biblical evidence to support their doctrine. Like the beginning of the Nicean Creed says that anyone who does not adhere to the trinity will quote "perish eternally" and then it goes on to put as many contradictions as it can on a single page.

 

[King David]

Immaterial. Trying to use English nuance to overturn the historic teaching of the Church for well over 1,000 years before English even existed as a language is irrational.

It has nothing to do with the English language, that's what it says in the Greek text. And again you're touting the "historic teaching" phrase like it actually means something.

 

[Razeontherock]

It has nothing to do with the English language, that's what it says in the Greek text. And again you're touting the "historic teaching" phrase like it actually means something.

You really think we're going to tolerate this?

How quaint.

 

[King David]

You really think we're going to tolerate this?

How quaint.

Tolerate what? I came here to receive from trinitarians clear (not ambiguous) Biblical evidence of the trinitarian idea that God is a "Unity in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity." I'm especially concerned because I've already been told by many trinitarians after my few months of being a Biblical Unitarian that I'm going to be burning eternally in hell if I don't subscribe to this concept yet they have displayed a severe amount of ignorance of the languages and culture in which the Bible was written and/or they take verses out of context and refuse to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

 

[Razeontherock]

Tolerate what? I came here to receive

Stop kidding yourself. You have received nothing, neither are you about to. You have reduced yourself to making a mockery of the Church, fooling yourself that God is mocked.

You completely dismiss understanding the languages the Bible is written in, as a concept. That's a shame, because you do have some valid learning under your belt; as long as it stays simple enough that one word from the original language corresponds to one word in English. Which it doesn't.

You even managed to work identity politics into this, all in the same breath. And all within your first 24 hours?!?

You are allowed to not care what the Church has taught. (Assuming you are in the US, you have religious liberty)
Just don't pretend otherwise.

I notice you haven't addressed Jude 1:3; how many times was the Faith delivered? But that means nothing to you