Why do you seek and desire to lose your salvation?

[John the Baptist]

90% of the greatest and most fruitful evangelists, missionaries, writers and preachers of the past believed justification by faith alone which carries with it OSAS. This can not be denied.

Look at your modern "evangelists, preachers, writers" - Benny Hinn, TD Jakes, Oral Roberts, Joel Osteen, Ken Hagin, faith healers, etc. - all these guys believe you can lose it and these men are not holy men whatsoever and are an abomination.

I believe the above men are dead in trepasses and sins.

I'll follow those who believe justification and OSAS - you are in agreement with the latter. :o

God bless 8-)

*********
But you make no sense whatsoever. These men no doubt have as much faith, belief or whatever it is that you say makes you OSAS? and yet, you say that they are lost because they do not believe that a person is OSAS??
The only difference is that they have the doctrine messed up you say.
In other words, you are OSAS by only belief, yet they are not! :roll: :roll:

And you.. with your messed up stuff of burning in an eternal burning hell with never any one dieing.. with whatever keeps you with immortality???Genesis 3:22-24 but that is just cricket, huh? Obadiah 1:16And that is only for starters!

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="Dave...":ac811]
The simple bottom line Truth is.. "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" :fadein: And if not? That is your 'free' decision to make.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[/quote:ac811]

***
So you do not LOVE CHRIST, & then call yourself a Born Again Christian, huh?? OK, have it your way. :roll:

 

[ChristineES]

Dave and Christine,

OSAS thology is very dangerous theology because it leads people astray by giving them false assurance. I know hundreds of people that say they are saved and have no proof of their faith. Why do you keep on insisting this theology that gives new and young Christians false assurance?

You are saying that many people believe they lose their salvation? I believe it is the opposite. Even the Catholics say they dont believe in OSAS but their lives are not showing much fruit of Christianity. I believe they are following OSAS thology too.

We have reposibility to lead our fellow believers to be obedient to the Lord. If the message we preach is not achiving that then it is not of God but the devil's.

This goes to my other point on another thread. If a person is saved, that person knows in his heart that he is saved. If this man(or woman) turns from God, he was never saved in the first place, and he knew he was not saved. If a person is saved then God enters that person, and I can't imagine why God would leave that person once he has entered that person. There are people who receive the word gladly, but seeds planted were choked by weeds and did not bear fruit, that person was never truly saved. But the ones who were saved grew and and matured. Those people were and are truly saved. Once a person is truly saved, no one can snatch them from God's hands.

 

[AVBunyan]

and yet, you say that they are lost because they do not believe that a person is OSAS??

It is not because they do not believe OSAS - it is because they do not believe one is saved by Christ alone and thus they do not believe OSAS. Get the order right.

 

[gingercat]

This goes to my other point on another thread. If a person is saved, that person knows in his heart that he is saved. If this man(or woman) turns from God, he was never saved in the first place, and he knew he was not saved. If a person is saved then God enters that person, and I can't imagine why God would leave that person once he has entered that person. There are people who receive the word gladly, but seeds planted were choked by weeds and did not bear fruit, that person was never truly saved. But the ones who were saved grew and and matured. Those people were and are truly saved. Once a person is truly saved, no one can snatch them from God's hands.

Christine, You OSAS supporters are negating your responsibility and made a mess of your theology. You give new and young believers false assurance then you turn around saying they were not saved from beginning when they are not being faithful. Give me a break!

 

[gingercat]

The simple bottom line Truth is.. "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" :fadein: And if not? That is your 'free' decision to make.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Of course no one can earn salvation by works, but you have to keep His commandment to prove your faith is real!!!!!

Good deed is our evidence of our faith!!!!

How can we make it more clear than this!!!!

 

[AVBunyan]

Of course no one can earn salvation by works, but you have to keep His commandment to prove your faith is real!!!!! Good deed is our evidence of our faith!!!!

You are as confused as a termite in a yo yo on the matter of justification for you said earlier..."My position and understanding is that as long as you believe in Him and follow Him until the end you are safe." This quote tells me you believe one have to do somethingn in order to be saved.

What is it - is the sinner saved by what Christ did at Calry plus nothing or do you beleive Calvary just opened up the door to give you the opportunity to save yourself by your obedience andn faithfulness - which is it - be precise.

 

[John the Baptist]

Of course no one can earn salvation by works, but you have to keep His commandment to prove your faith is real!!!!! Good deed is our evidence of our faith!!!!

You are as confused as a termite in a yo yo on the matter of justification for you said earlier..."My position and understanding is that as long as you believe in Him and follow Him until the end you are safe." This quote tells me you believe one have to do somethingn in order to be saved.

What is it - is the sinner saved by what Christ did at Calry plus nothing or do you beleive Calvary just opened up the door to give you the opportunity to save yourself by your obedience andn faithfulness - which is it - be precise.

******

It is called MATURITY! And some just do not have it!

 

[gingercat]

What is it - is the sinner saved by what Christ did at Calry plus nothing or do you beleive Calvary just opened up the door to give you the opportunity to save yourself by your obedience andn faithfulness - which is it - be precise."


He died on the cross because no matter how much we try to be good we can never be perfect. That's why He had to die for us!

I like your idiom, btw.

 

[AVBunyan]

He died on the cross because no matter how much we try to be good we can never be perfect. That's why He had to die for us!

So hypothetical situation - if you have trusted Christ and then lived in sin, or didn't keep the faith or quit following or whatever then are you still saved?

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

If a person is saved, that person knows in his heart that he is saved. If this man(or woman) turns from God, he was never saved in the first place, and he knew he was not saved.

I have met people who believe they are saved, but live in their sin. The fruits of this doctrine are apparent.

If a person is saved then God enters that person, and I can't imagine why God would leave that person once he has entered that person.

Do you believe in free will? I invite someone into my house. I can tell them to leave too. If they dont leave, I call the police. Now, the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He would leave if I told him.

There are people who receive the word gladly, but seeds planted were choked by weeds and did not bear fruit, that person was never truly saved. But the ones who were saved grew and and matured. Those people were and are truly saved.

Doublespeak. OSAS says that all it takes is accept the seed. Because then its in you. Now your talking about bearing fruit. Thats not OSAS. Thats Catholicism.

Once a person is truly saved, no one can snatch them from God's hands.

I dont disagree. No one can snatch you from God's hands... unless you tell God to let go...

If you think about it, it makes sense. Why would someone want to lose their salvation? They wouldnt... but they may want something that isnt compatable with God even more. Basically, to subscribe to OSAS is to negate free will. If you receive a gift from someone, its rude to give it back, but you certainly can give it back. If you invite someone into your house, you can tell them to leave. If you say to someone that you love them, and then cheat on them constantly, do you love them? They will leave you. God wont leave you, but by your actions, you tell him to leave. You say to him with your works that you want something other than him. And because he is loving, he will let us go, and not hold us against our will. And again, if you adopt a child, that child can leave you and say he is not yours anymore. He can even be legally emancipated. You will always love him, but you wont force him to live in your house. Should he come back, you will welcome him. But if he dies before that, then there is no reconciliation.

And Catholics dont believe in OSAS... and if they do, they arent Catholic. I have told a number of people that they arent Catholic. I denied access to the Knights of Columbus because they were only baptised Catholic. The Catholics that you see that dont produce fruit, they dont believe in OSAS. They just dont care. Some people treat it like an ethnicity. Others, like me, dont.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

So hypothetical situation - if you have trusted Christ and then lived in sin, or didn't keep the faith or quit following or whatever then are you still saved?

Do I get to answer? Ive seen your battles with Thessalonian, so I dont expect much fruit...

if you trust Christ and then live in sin, or dont keep the faith or quit following...

I would say you were never saved. Redeemed but not sanctified. One must have the Holy Spirit to be sanctified. Sanctification is a process. One can essentially chase away the Holy Spirit by acts of mortal sin (sin that kills your soul). Venial sin simply leads to mortal sin, but it does not kill the soul. If you soul is dead, and you stop following God, there is no regeneration... there is no sanctification. When you die, you can never be holy enough to see God. You will live seperated from him for all eternity. There is my barebones answer.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. I dont disagree. No one can snatch you from God's hands... unless you tell God to let go...

If you receive a gift from someone, its rude to give it back, but you certainly can give it back. If you invite someone into your house, you can tell them to leave.

They will leave you. God wont leave you, but by your actions, you tell him to leave. You say to him with your works that you want something other than him. And because he is loving, he will let us go, and not hold us against our will.

2. And again, if you adopt a child, that child can leave you and say he is not yours anymore. He can even be legally emancipated. You will always love him, but you wont force him to live in your house. Should he come back, you will welcome him. But if he dies before that, then there is no reconciliation.
.

1. The above statments thus shows you are actually not trusting Christ in any way shape or from but you are actually trusting you not to give it back thus you are trusting you.

2. Wrong analysis - by law an adopted child cannot be unadopted even if he leaves - he is still your child no matter what - that is why uses the word adopted in Romans.

You people have completely misunderstood teh doctrine of what justification really is.

Defintion of justification - In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.

Nowhere is justification dependent upon your faith, your obedience, your enduring. After justification then your faith, your obedience, your enduring comes into play as a result of justifcation but not the cause for it. Your practical walk has no bearing on your position which is perfect in Christ.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

26: Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27: but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1 Cor. 9

Explain.

 

[ChristineES]

We are beating a dead horse.
There are some who can read or listen to what you are saying, but will not understand it. I don't like to argue and yet that is what I was doing. Having different beliefs in itself is not bad, but I don't think arguing solves anything. I have said my peace, and I believe what I said. I read others view, and although I try to understand, I just can't. I want to serve God, not try and prove a point. In fact I think all who have participated in this thread have made their point. Maybe it is time to end it. :o

 

[gingercat]

AVBunyan wrote

So hypothetical situation - if you have trusted Christ and then lived in sin, or didn't keep the faith or quit following or whatever then are you still saved?"




So if you believe in Him even though you are not sinless you still will be saved.

His followers still have to keep his commandments.

1John2:4-6 "The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did."

There you have it. If you don't keep His commandments you are a liar, and liars are not welcome into His kingdom!

 

[John the Baptist]

What is it - is the sinner saved by what Christ did at Calry plus nothing or do you beleive Calvary just opened up the door to give you the opportunity to save yourself by your obedience andn faithfulness - which is it - be precise."

***
John here: You are required to submit totally to the Everlasting Covenant & Everlasting Gospel conditions! When this happens, you are Re/Born as in Adam before sin. PERFECT! As in Romans 1:8

Then you are to use the provisions GIVEN by Christ of Philipians 4:12 & 2 Corinthians 12:9 to follow Christ. It is done out of a Born Again Agape LOVE! Not the professed ones of 1 John 2:4!! If ye LOVE ME keep my Covenant! Christ will accept no sickening Lukewarm love! Revelation 3:16-17.

Any merit is seen? is as in Maturing as in safe to save through-out Eternity! Nahum 1:9 WE ARE TO BE TESTED TO THE VERY CORE!! See Hebrews 12:4-8 And NOTICE that we are PARTAKERS!! We 'ain't' OSAS!

And most do not even get started in the process! See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
***

He died on the cross because no matter how much we try to be good we can never be perfect. That's why He had to die for us!

I like your idiom, btw.

 

[ChristineES]

Why are people so ready to tell others that they are not of God's Kingdom? Why do you always try to prove that no one is saved but you and those who believe the same way you do? You may want to try to pry yourself from the internet and read your Bible again.
God loves you, God loves me. God Loves sinners. In fact, Jesus ate with "sinners" and the Pharisees got on Him about it.

There are so many enemies out there, non-Christians who want all to be non-Christians, Athiests who try push their atheism on us all. I don't think The Lord Our Father wants us to fight with each other!!
Accept your differences!! Look instead on what you have in common, which is faith in Our Lord Jesus!!!!!

 

[gingercat]

John, you mixed up mine with AV's.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Accept your differences!! Look instead on what you have in common, which is faith in Our Lord Jesus!!!!!

Thats cute. But not gonna happen. Should we compromise the truth for the sake of agreeing? No. We should hash it out and beat the dead horse until somebody gives, or leaves or something. Now, this should not get all of our energies. But it is necessary.

And a dead horse or not, I have questions. And would like someone to answer them. Im curious. Am I gonna change tonight. Probably not. But maybe down the road I may have an epiphany if its the truth. Who knows.