Why do you take the risk of eating murdered animals?

[Randy]

Do you understand why it was not given before the flood?

It was given is what I read. Your attempted deflection is noted.
Look I eat meat. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. If it was unlawful Jesus would have told me as its His Fathers will to raise me up on the last day.

 

[WIP]

WIP you have just taken all my food off me what am I going to eat mow?
Last night i googled and asked if fisn felt pain. I was horrified to learn they do. Jelly fish don't but I don't fancy eating them. There is nothing left to eat.

Looks like you'll be fasting....for a while.

 

[WIP]

It was given is what I read. Your attempted deflection is noted.
Look I eat meat. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. If it was unlawful Jesus would have told me as its His Fathers will to raise me up on the last day.

Scripture records Jesus eating fish and serving fish to others. He also participated in the Passover meal which would have included lamb, right?

 

[Serving Zion]

I didn't mean that God commanded that we eat meat. What I meant was that it was God's command that meat and plants are for food.

I think you chose the wrong word. There is no compulsion to eat meat as a commandment would be.

In what way?

In what way does commercial farming create more misery than is necessary? Are you asking me to show how the misery caused by commercial farming can be reduced by eliminating commercial farming? I can do that! It isn't very pleasant to look upon misery though..

I'm not so sure it was only after the flood.

Then, how can you explain why God said it?

Able kept sheep. For what purpose?

Obviously sheep are good producers of wool and milk, and also have been used to maintain pastures in place of modern lawn mowers. All those resources are useful and sufficient justification alone, for keeping sheep.

We do know that he slaughtered one of the first born of his flock to be a sacrificial offering to God.

Genesis 4:4 doesn't say that the sheep was slaughtered. You should look into it: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/4-4.htm

 

[Serving Zion]

The smell of a good steak from cattle that you raised over mesquite coals is certainly not foul.

Well, I can't say that I know how much different it is from the pungeant odours that I had written of, but I know where you are coming from!

The Lord Himself enjoyed it, as he ate in the company of Abraham.

As I said, it's an acquired taste. I too have once enjoyed charred steaks in a barbecue, and there is a social media post of mine from the time which I find abhorrent nowadays.

“By faith” means God told him to do it, and he obeyed.

I don't accept that assertion. There's no indication in the scriptures that God commanded the offerings from Cain and Abel, or that they were acting in obedience to do it.

The scriptures call it an excellent sacrifice.

Exactly why it is excellent is the definitive point. I do not believe it is simply because one was animal and the other vegetable, but it was more about the way God's heart was inclined toward the person who was bringing the offering.

Isaiah 1:11 and Psalms 51:18-19 emphasise this.

 

[Serving Zion]

It was given is what I read.

You're not interested in understanding why?

Your attempted deflection is noted.

I didn't say it for that purpose, but to inspire you to ask why.

Look I eat meat. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. If it was unlawful Jesus would have told me as its His Fathers will to raise me up on the last day.

I know, and this is why the scriptures make it very clear that we who do not eat meat must not judge those who do, because God has received him. If you are worried about my values with that regard, you might like to see what I wrote to Hej73, the OP, in post #5. Here I have copy/pasted to save you looking it up:

The evil forces just want to destroy. Period. John 10:10). If they can only destroy the flesh of animals and not the soul, it still is not enough to satisfy them. God is a God of salvation though, and if He can save the eternal soul of His beloved children, that is His desire. Whether the humans are saved or not it will not necessarily reduce the harm they do to animals. In time, however, if staying on the path of the truth, they will be led to appreciate the point of view of those innocent victims and maybe be prepared to make some personal sacrifices of good will.

 

[Tessa]

Looks like you'll be fasting....for a while.

It's your fault WIP

 

[Randy]

You're not interested in understanding why?

I didn't say it for that purpose, but to inspire you to ask why.

I know, and this is why the scriptures make it very clear that we who do not eat meat must not judge those who do, because God has received him. If you are worried about my values with that regard, you might like to see what I wrote to Hej73, the OP, in post #5. Here I have copy/pasted to save you looking it up:

The evil forces just want to destroy. Period. John 10:10). If they can only destroy the flesh of animals and not the soul, it still is not enough to satisfy them. God is a God of salvation though, and if He can save the eternal soul of His beloved children, that is His desire. Whether the humans are saved or not it will not necessarily reduce the harm they do to animals. In time, however, if staying on the path of the truth, they will be led to appreciate the point of view of those innocent victims and maybe be prepared to make some personal sacrifices of good will.

No I'm not interested in "your" message. I don't let anyone judge me in regarding to eat meat. Nor do I tell others what to eat or what not to eat. There is no importance in that.
If you don't want to eat meat than don't. It is not evil to eat meat. I think the Passover lamb was eaten.

 

[Randy]

Scripture records Jesus eating fish and serving fish to others. He also participated in the Passover meal which would have included lamb, right?

Yes, I believe there would have been meat at that meal.

 

[Serving Zion]

No I'm not interested in "your" message. I don't let anyone judge me in regarding to eat meat. Nor do I tell others what to eat or what not to eat. There is no importance in that.
If you don't want to eat meat than don't. It is not evil to eat meat. I think the Passover lamb was eaten.

It's ok with me Randy if you don't want to talk about it with me. I understand that you like meat and you don't want to give it up. I also understand that it isn't helpful if I am judging you for it and that we should allow God to be the judge.

I only asked the question of you because of the potential value of finding the answer.

 

[Randy]

It's ok with me Randy if you don't want to talk about it with me. I understand that you like meat and you don't want to give it up. I also understand that it isn't helpful if I am judging you for it and that we should allow God to be the judge.

I only asked the question of you because of the potential value of finding the answer.

Animals are not murdered as they were not created in the image of God.
There is no risk in having meat in a meal.
There is no teaching from Judaism other than kosher laws which restricts certain meats.

There is no reason to believe that Jesus and His disciples didn't eat meat or added no meat as a commandment.
Most Christians eat meat.

I am comfortable in my relationship with the head of the body of Christ.

You associated risk and murder with your question. Not the Lord. I and others have tried to reason with you but you keep pushing no meat. As I implied I am not interested in your mindset in regard to not eating meat.

As always I am interested in following my Lords will. If He were here I would put a good steak on the grille for Him. But alas I will have to wait and see Him in Heaven though He has made Himself known to me by the Spirit.

Best regards (peace),
Randy

 

[WIP]

Genesis 4:4 doesn't say that the sheep was slaughtered. You should look into it: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/4-4.htm

I think it is implied because it says, "Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat." Yes, I know one could make an argument that the fat was with them even on the hoof but I think it would be a weak argument grasping at straws.

 

[JLB]

I don't accept that assertion. There's no indication in the scriptures that God commanded the offerings from Cain and Abel, or that they were acting in obedience to do it.

That’s exactly what “by faith” means.


God speaks to someone to do something.

They now have faith by hearing God’s word.

When they obey what God has said for them to do, then the faith they received by hearing, becomes activated (made alive; made complete) to produce the intended divine result.


IOW, faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead, dormant, inactive, just as a body without a spirit is dead.


Examples of people operating “by faith”:

#1

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

God spoke to Noah to build the Ark.

Noah responded in obedience and built the Ark, and was declared righteous; the righteousness according to faith.


#2

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


This one foreshadows how the Gentiles would be justified by faith by obeying the Gospel.


The Lord called Abraham; to follow Him in the destiny He had for Abraham. Abraham obeyed and justified by faith, foreshadowing salvation by faith.


The only way a person is saved; justified by faith is obedience.


That is why it’s called the “obedience of faith“.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Last example; sorry about the long post



Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


The works here is not the works of the law, or the work that earns a wage.


The work here that Abraham did, was to obey the Lord and offer his son Isaac on the altar.


This is the obedience of faith. There are many more examples.

Obedience is the principle (law) by which faith operates, and is made complete, to produce the intended divine result.

We receive faith by hearing God speak to us; whether directly or indirectly.









JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, I can't say that I know how much different it is from the pungeant odours that I had written of, but I know where you are coming from!

As I said, it's an acquired taste. I too have once enjoyed charred steaks in a barbecue, and there is a social media post of mine from the time which I find abhorrent nowadays.

I don't accept that assertion. There's no indication in the scriptures that God commanded the offerings from Cain and Abel, or that they were acting in obedience to do it.

Exactly why it is excellent is the definitive point. I do not believe it is simply because one was animal and the other vegetable, but it was more about the way God's heart was inclined toward the person who was bringing the offering.

Isaiah 1:11 and Psalms 51:18-19 emphasise this.

I do believe people who eat fresh vegetables as the main stay of their diet are more healthy.


How about fish?

 

[Corn Pop]

Fresh fruit and vegetables from farmer to market that same day or home grown, not the many imported fruit and vegetables that have spent weeks or months at sea in a chiller before hitting the shelves i dont call that fresh.

 

[Serving Zion]

Hello Randy, I recognise that it is no good for us to speak about it, so I am only answering your post to me to give my views on it. I am not trying to inspire your response.

Animals are not murdered as they were not created in the image of God.
There is no risk in having meat in a meal.

You associated risk and murder with your question. Not the Lord.

Those two parts of your post show that you have thought it is I who started this thread, but the thread was started by a new member who signed up to discuss this. I have joined the conversation and as I said, I asked a question of you in the first place to sow the idea for you.

There is no teaching from Judaism other than kosher laws which restricts certain meats.

It's a matter of fact to say that, but it doesn't really have much bearing on the matters being discussed.

There is no reason to believe that Jesus and His disciples didn't eat meat or added no meat as a commandment.
Most Christians eat meat.

I am aware of that, and again, there is no requirement for Christians to be meat eaters, and there is even defense in the scripture for the non-meat eaters to not be looked down on because of it.

I and others have tried to reason with you but you keep pushing no meat.

"Tried to reason with me"? - what, are you trying to get me to become a meat eater? ... or do you think that I am forbidding the eating of meat? I know it is unscriptural to do that, so I'd say it's probably owed to the fact that you thought I had started this thread.

As I implied I am not interested in your mindset in regard to not eating meat.

I wish you could get to know it first!

As always I am interested in following my Lords will. If He were here I would put a good steak on the grille for Him. But alas I will have to wait and see Him in Heaven though He has made Himself known to me by the Spirit.

Don't you worry, there's plenty of people who try that on me!

 

[Corn Pop]

I do have a question. Its a simple question.

Why would the scripture use Jesus feeding people with fish as an example if eating flesh is wrong?. Be it literal or symbolic or watever way anyone wants to interpret the scripture, why would it use Jesus feeding people with fish as an example if its wrong. He could have given them bread and melon but the bible doesnt say that.

 

[Corn Pop]

Any Christian want to change the scripture. Jesus feeds 5000 with bread and two tomatoes.

I think he feed them with 2 fish, could have been two 1000lb marlins or big blue fin tuna. Who knows.

"When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. "

Jesus had just been on a boat before he feed people with fish. The boat he hitch a ride probably net some big fish on boats back in those days before everything was taken like these days. Well can still land 1000lb+ tuna these days but its more rare.

 

[Serving Zion]

I think it is implied because it says, "Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat." Yes, I know one could make an argument that the fat was with them even on the hoof but I think it would be a weak argument grasping at straws.

If you keep looking into it, you will find that the word in Hebrew "Cheleb" translated as "fat" doesn't only have the meaning as it does in English of referring to the part of the anatomy. If you look at the parallel translations of Genesis 4:4 (eg: https://biblehub.com/genesis/4-4.htm), you will see various translations ranging from "their fat portions" (that is what you have in mind) to "the fattest of them" or "their fat ones". In addition to that, if you follow the Strong's Concordance for the word Cheleb to list all occurrences of that word in the Old Testament, you'll find things like Psalms 147:14 (link) and Psalms 81:16 (link), and look at Psalms 73:7 (link, link): it is not translated as "fat" there, but "abundance".

It is clear that the over abundance of occurrences in the scriptures do refer to the fat portions, and that is because the scriptures were developed mostly during a time and culture that wrote the scriptures for the purpose of describing sacrifices.

So, it isn't implied quite as strongly as you had thought and I don't blame you for that, because I know that I've spent more time looking for answer to that question than you have. I think there is a more challenging question though that is implied by what I asked you back in post #44:

Then, how can you explain why God said it?

 

[Serving Zion]

That’s exactly what “by faith” means.


God speaks to someone to do something.

They now have faith by hearing God’s word.

When they obey what God has said for them to do, then the faith they received by hearing, becomes activated (made alive; made complete) to produce the intended divine result.


IOW, faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead, dormant, inactive, just as a body without a spirit is dead.


Examples of people operating “by faith”:

#1

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

God spoke to Noah to build the Ark.

Noah responded in obedience and built the Ark, and was declared righteous; the righteousness according to faith.


#2

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


This one foreshadows how the Gentiles would be justified by faith by obeying the Gospel.


The Lord called Abraham; to follow Him in the destiny He had for Abraham. Abraham obeyed and justified by faith, foreshadowing salvation by faith.


The only way a person is saved; justified by faith is obedience.


That is why it’s called the “obedience of faith“.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Last example; sorry about the long post



Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


The works here is not the works of the law, or the work that earns a wage.


The work here that Abraham did, was to obey the Lord and offer his son Isaac on the altar.


This is the obedience of faith. There are many more examples.

Obedience is the principle (law) by which faith operates, and is made complete, to produce the intended divine result.

We receive faith by hearing God speak to us; whether directly or indirectly.









JLB

I do believe that people can exercise faith in obedience, but also that people can exercise faith without having been commanded by God. There is a concise definition of what faith is, given in Hebrews 11: it says that faith is the substance of things hoped for (there is the importance of your commandment, that the commandment gives a reason to hope by faith) and the certainty of things not seen (there is the element of trust beyond reasonable doubt).

I do believe people who eat fresh vegetables as the main stay of their diet are more healthy.


How about fish?

What is it that you are asking me to say about fish? There is a lot that can be said about it and I don't want to just stab in the dark!