Why does the Gospel require preaching and hearing if it is known naturally?

[OzSpen]

I disagree. He only draws His Sheep and they come willingly in the day of His Power.

That's not what John 12:32 states.

 

[brightfame52]

That's not what John 12:32 states.

That is what it means.

 

[OzSpen]

That's not what John 12:32 states.

Since when did ALL mean SOME??

 

[Serving Zion]

I disagree. He only draws His Sheep and they come willingly in the day of His Power.

We should not be content with disagreements (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Same+mind&version=TLV), so help me to understand your view: would you agree that there are some people who are involved in the churches, having a faith based on the bible and the history of Jesus, that look like Christians but that are ultimately not the ones who will be drafted for salvation according to the scriptures I have given (Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:24, 2 Peter 2:1, Jude)? If you do acknowledge the existence of the false Christians in that way, then can you please explain how you can be of the view that they were not drawn toward Jesus from the "all peoples" mentioned in John 12:23. Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't believe you.

LOL The above is for OzSpen
You should believe him !!
Serving Zion has given you a good post too.

You disagree with a lot.
But you never prove your beliefs with scripture.

You change the word ALL to accommodate what YOU believe it means.
If two persons such as Oz and Serving Zion made a comment to me,,,,
I'd stop. And give serious consideration to what they stated.

John 12:32 states that Jesus will draw ALL men unto Himself.

God is not a God that prefers some persons over others.
Romans 2:11
There is no partiality with God.


God wishes that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
[God] desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God does, however, set a condition to being saved.
A person must believe in God and accept the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus.
And live a life worthy to be called a Christian life.

If Paul, inspired by God, had meant to say ALL TYPES of men,
then that is what he would have said.

What is YOUR interpretation of John 12:32?
How does ALL MEN not mean All Men?

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 1:18-2:16 states that the Gospel is known naturally and all are without excuse (Rom 1:18-2:16). However, Romans 10:9-15 states that salvation requires preaching, hearing and believing the Gospel (Rom 10:9-15). If the Gospel is known naturally, why does it require preaching and hearing?

Hi jmt....

You've brought up an interesting question, and one that is easily answered.

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Romans is saying that God has wrath toward some men and that they are without excuse.
Why? Because from the beginning of time, and even before the Cross, God made Himself be known through His creation.
All any man had to do was look around him and it would be obvious that something/someone created everything.
Some believed and were saved by faith...as usual.
Some did not believe and they suppressed the truth and became unrighteous in God's eyes.


Romans 1:20 - 2:16 is speaking about how evil man became.
God destroyed the earth over this and saved only Noah.
He also destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the reason stated in Romans 1:26-27.......

But God also says above that He will render to each man as he does, according to his deeds.
Romans 2:6-8

Paul continues in Romans 2 to describe WHO will be saved:
1. Not the hearer of the Law but the doers of the Law will be justified.
2. All men that do naturally what is right, will be judged without the Law because they show the Law in their hearts.
3. Those who, according to the gospel, God will judge through Jesus Christ.


Romans 10:9-15 does not conflict with the above list of 3.
It states that whoever believes in Christ will not be disappointed.
If we believe with our heart that Jseus rose, we will be saved. (He is the Messiah).


Preaching is necessary because some that fall under the category of Romans 1:20 may still
have the opportunity to be saved IF they could hear the gospel.

Many atheists could become believers IF they hear the gospel.

In a way we are all preachers, both in word and in example.
But real preachers are also necessary to spread the good news and to help
people understand the nature of the God they witness through His creation.

Also, Jesus said to teach, preach, and baptize...
surely He had a good reason.
He wanted to expand the Kingdom of God and many may not even take the
time to think about this.

 

[OzSpen]

Romans 1:18-2:16 states that the Gospel is known naturally and all are without excuse (Rom 1:18-2:16). However, Romans 10:9-15 states that salvation requires preaching, hearing and believing the Gospel (Rom 10:9-15). If the Gospel is known naturally, why does it require preaching and hearing?

jmt,

Let's look at what Rom 1:18-2:16 states. This is from the Easy-to-Read version (ERV) that was originally translated for the deaf who needed simpler language and shorter sentences.

18 God shows his anger from heaven against all the evil and wrong things that people do. Their evil lives hide the truth they have. 19 This makes God angry because they have been shown what he is like. Yes, God has made it clear to them.

20 There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do.

21 People knew God, but they did not honor him as God, and they did not thank him. Their ideas were all useless. There was not one good thought left in their foolish minds. 22 They said they were wise, but they became fools. 23 Instead of honoring the divine greatness of God, who lives forever, they traded it for the worship of idols—things made to look like humans, who get sick and die, or like birds, animals, and snakes.

24 People wanted only to do evil. So God left them and let them go their sinful way. And so they became completely immoral and used their bodies in shameful ways with each other. 25 They traded the truth of God for a lie. They bowed down and worshiped the things God made instead of worshiping the God who made those things. He is the one who should be praised forever. Amen.

26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.

28 People did not think it was important to have a true knowledge of God. So God left them and allowed them to have their own worthless thinking. And so they do what they should not do. 29 They are filled with every kind of sin, evil, greed, and hatred. They are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, lying, and thinking the worst things about each other. They gossip 30 and say evil things about each other. They hate God. They are rude, proud, and brag about themselves. They invent ways of doing evil. They don’t obey their parents, 31 they are foolish, they don’t keep their promises, and they show no kindness or mercy to others. 32 They know God’s law says that anyone who lives like that should die. But they not only continue to do these things themselves, but they also encourage others who do them.

Let God Be the Judge​

Chapter 2: So do you think that you can judge those other people? You are wrong. You too are guilty of sin. You judge them, but you do the same things they do. So when you judge them, you are really condemning yourself. 2 God judges all who do such things, and we know his judgment is right. 3 And since you do the same things as those people you judge, surely you understand that God will punish you too. How could you think you would be able to escape his judgment? 4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.

5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 He will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

12 People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law. 13 Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says.

14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. 15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

16 All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone.

These verses teach us two main things about God:

(1) Creation reveals His existence, "There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do."

When we look at creation, we understand God's eternal power and the attributes that make Him God. When I look at the power of God to create the entire universe, the enormity and beauty of the universe, and what it means for every person to be made in God's image, I know of God's existence. But that doesn't proclaim salvation to me.

(2) We know of God's existence through our consciences. In ch 2:1b-3 it states: "You too are guilty of sin. You judge them, but you do the same things they do. So when you judge them, you are really condemning yourself. 2 God judges all who do such things, and we know his judgment is right. 3 And since you do the same things as those people you judge, surely you understand that God will punish you too. How could you think you would be able to escape his judgment?"

Again, there is not a word here about proclamation of the Gospel leading to salvation. The sections you cited from Rom 1-2 demonstrate the existence of God but not the way to salvation. That is why Rom 10:14-17 is needed for proclamation of the Gospel.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Romans 1:18-2:16 states that the Gospel is known naturally and all are without excuse (Rom 1:18-2:16).

jmt,

That is not what the verses state in my understanding. Rom 1:19-20 (NET) states: " 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse."

What does natural revelation tell us? We know this about God: His invisible attributes have been known since the creation of the world. These invisible attributes include God's eternal power and deity that are understood from what He has made.

There is not a single person in the world who faces God after death who can say: "I didn't know of your existence. You didn't provide me with the correct evidence for me to believe in You."

No, no! They are "without excuse". I debate this with secularists online in Australia and this is one of the points I often raise. God has provided them with all the evidence they need to know of His existence. I point to the beginning of the universe, the nature of the heavens and the earth, the detail in the construction of my human eyes and heart. Because of heart damage, I now have 2 artificial heart valves that require daily doses of warfarin and regular testing for thickness of blood.

I have read extensively in Francis Schaeffer. This thread reminds me of what he said:

​

The strength of the Christian system — the acid test of it — is that everything fits under the apex of the existent, infinite-personal God, and it is the only system in the world where this is true. No other system has an apex under which everything fits.That is why I am a Christian and no longer an agnostic. In all the other systems, something 'sticks out,' something cannot be included; and it has to be mutilated or ignored. But without losing his own integrity, the Christian can see everything fitting into place beneath the Christian apex of the existence of the infinite-personal God who is there (p. 81), " He Is There and He Is Not Silent​

The late Christian author, John Blanchard, wrote a book with a provocative title: Does God Believe in Atheists?



Oz