Why I believe SDA's (& other sabbatarians) Are In Error

[wavy]

To borrow words from a good friend and brother of mine before I begin this short study (there is MUCH I could add to it to prove it), I'd like to say that no matter how many people believe something, truth is still truth, and it must be back with the bible. People tend to believe that what is common or widely accepted must be the truth. They need to read Luke 16:15 and Matthew 7:13-14.

I will not make this as long as it could be, but I am about to explain a few scriptural reasons why I believe the shabbat is not on Saturday (Saturn's Day). I am about to explain with scriptural evidence why the shabbat is determined by the moon (I'm sure you've heard of lunar sabbaths), not a man-made calendar with a man-made seventh day. No proof can be taken from the scripture as to how the shabbat is on Saturday. Not one piece of evidence. Man has made several calendars and changed the days of the week several times throughout history. Yahweh has already appointed us an unchanging calendar in the heavens which man can't possibly deter us from. Please keep an open mind (words of Yahweh always in black italic; using the LITV).

Genesis 1:14 And Elohim said, Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to divide between the day and the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years.

Notice the word "seasons". Most people take this to mean summer, fall, winter and spring. However, they, of course, as you knew I was going to say, are wrong. The Hebrew word is moed, written specifically in this scripture in the plural form of moadim meaning, "appointed times". Keep this in mind.

These luminaries we know to be the sun and the moon. They dictate our calendar.

Psalm 104:19 He made the moon for seasons; the sun knows its going down.

Here we have the word "seasons" again, the word still being moadim. We know for sure that the moon was appointed for moadim/appointed times according to these scriptures. Those who keep the feast days (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, etc) or are at least familiar with the feast days know they are determined by the moon which dictates the "Jewish" (properly Yahweh's) calendar.

Now on to the key point of this moed business:

Leviticus 23:1 And Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying,
Leviticus 23:2 Speak to the sons of Israel, and you shall say to them, The feasts of Yahweh which you shall proclaim, holy gatherings, shall be these: These are My feasts:

That's right. You guessed it. The Hebrew word here for "feasts" is moadim. Guess which is the first one he listed in the very next verse?

Leviticus 23:3 Work is to be done six days, and in the seventh day shall be a shabbat of rest, a holy gathering; you shall do no work; it is a shabbat to Yahweh in all your dwellings.
Leviticus 23:4 These are feasts of Yahweh, holy gatherings which you shall proclaim in their appointed times:

"What about the Jews? Wouldn't they know when the sabbath day is?" Good question. Good point. However, if you look throughout the scriptures, you will find that the Jews always messed up with the sabbaths. Lamentations 2:6 and Ezekiel 20:24 are just two of many examples.

This study does not prove lunar sabbatarian doctrine alone (although I believe it is good evidence), but I said I was not going to make this long. If there are any questions, I'll answer them to the best of my knowledge. You'll probably be wondering, "Well, then if it is not saturday, then when is it?" I'll answer this briefly: on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the moon.

 

[farley]

wavy,

I'm just interested in hearing more, so...

BUMP!

In Christ,

farley

 

[wavy]

anything specific you would like to know? i wouldn't know where to start.

have any questions or concerns?

 

[farley]

Hmmm...

I'm feeling that your message isn't complete, but as a Gentile Christian who worships on the first day of the week, your opening post here is breaking new ground for me. If you have presented 'Exhibit A' already, then I've missed it.

I'm thinking that everything Jewish/Hebrew, Old Testament, points to the Sabbath.

I'm really kind of lost trying to apply your Hebrew references to the first day of the week.

In Christ,

farley

 

[wavy]

I'm feeling that your message isn't complete, but as a Gentile Christian who worships on the first day of the week, your opening post here is breaking new ground for me. If you have presented 'Exhibit A' already, then I've missed it.

Which opening post? You mean the one on the Torah? But as far as this thread, oh no, this very short study on lunar sabbatarian doctrine would take about a 50 page book to right, for me at the leasts.

I'm thinking that everything Jewish/Hebrew, Old Testament, points to the Sabbath.

Not really. The sabbath is important, but not the most important. The most important is, of course, Yahweh and his Moshiach/Messiah. After that it is his chosen people who need to model themselves after what Yahweh commands with a good and willing heart. Sabbath just seems to be a hot topic around here. I see several people that believe in keeping it, but no one that believes in the rest of Torah.

So I decided, after getting few replies on my Torah thread, to talk about what I believe to be wrong about those who at least believe in keeping the sabbath.

I'm really kind of lost trying to apply your Hebrew references to the first day of the week.

I do not understand what you mean. To what are you referring to?

 

[farley]

No, no...the opening post of this thread. Your Torah post is even more daunting for me to tackle!

You so easily divide your commentary into - lunar sabbaths, man-made calendars, seasons, and feasts.

I'm thinking that you are assuming that all Gentiles must view the scriptures through a lens which factors all these things in to account. Wrong!

This is all Greek (I mean, Hebrew) to me, anyway.

farley

 

[wavy]

I'm thinking that you are assuming that all Gentiles must view the scriptures through a lens which factors all these things in to account. Wrong!

Well, gentiles who want to be a part of the family of Yahweh and want to learn how to obey him must take these things into account, I think.

 

[farley]

wavy,

I have to agree, here.

I mean to say that, the more accurately we understand the OT, the more sense we can make out of the NT, as I see things.

The more light we have regarding the Sabbath, the better. However, the little I've studied the OT, I've yet to see things as you have described them.

Please continue!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Imagican]

The OT is certainly an integral part of God's Word. But you do realize, of course, that the OT was written 'by' Jewish prophets, 'for' the Jewish people. Gentiles had absolutely 'NO' access to or need for this information at the time that it was written.

We certainly can learn much of the history and progression of God's relationship with man from this information, but I am of the understanding that, as a Gentile, the NT is ALL that is NEEDED for me to understand Christ's mission and purpose. As stated plainly, if I truly Love God and accept Christ as my personal Savior, God will then write HIS LAWS in my heart. If this isn't the case however, I must have been lied to.

So, all you people who insist that I MUST worship on one day or another, you need to be concentrating on YOUR upholding of these laws in YOUR HEART. I am NOT bound by such and refuse to be. I am free, thank Jesus, from the bonds that you would tie me with. NO THANKS.

And please do not think that I have abandoned the OT because of these statements. I study it almost as often as the NT. I do love God and find little as pleasurable as learning to understand His nature and the history and proof that it offers of His relationship with mankind. The OT is VERY important for this understanding but has little to do with salvation.

 

[Vic C.]

I am about to explain with scriptural evidence why the shabbat is determined by the moon (I'm sure you've heard of lunar sabbaths), not a man-made calendar with a man-made seventh day. No proof can be taken from the scripture as to how the shabbat is on Saturday. Not one piece of evidence. Man has made several calendars and changed the days of the week several times throughout history.

The Hebrew calendar is based on a 360 day week. This occurs because it is based on lunar cycles. They base their days of the week not by names (Sun.-Sat.) but by number. http://www.jewfaq.org/current.htm They aslo mark their days from sunset to sunset. (We mark them by using 12AM as the end of one day and the beginning of the next) This makes any comparisons between the Gregorian and Hebrew calendars moot.

Yes, we use a calendar that has been tampered with over the centuries; much of it was due to the egos and pride of several Roman emperors and Popes. The Hebrew calendar, on the other hand, remains relatively unchanged.

So, all you people who insist that I MUST worship on one day or another, you need to be concentrating on YOUR upholding of these laws in YOUR HEART. I am NOT bound by such and refuse to be. I am free, thank Jesus, from the bonds that you would tie me with. NO THANKS.

I believe an unbiased and open-minded study of the Sabbath reveals that sabbath does not equal worship. (at least not corporate worship) Sabbath = rest. You want to do a worthy word study? Look up all the places in the OT where the word "sabbath" is used and you'll get a good idea how they kept this day.

Holy convocations were usually reserved for the Feasts. You can "see" this by reading Leviticus 23:1-44 . With all that being said, I can't find anywhere where the sabbath has been changed.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

For more information on the error of SDA check The Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter (General Editor Ravi Zacharias)

Note: As the book points out, and for clarification, SDA are not a cult and are in fact a Christian denominationâ€â€they are just incorrect in some of their doctrine.

 

[yesha]

Do you believe that Jesus kept a lunar sabbath?

 

[Vic C.]

For more information on the error of SDA check The Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter (General Editor Ravi Zacharias)

Note: As the book points out, and for clarification, SDA are not a cult and are in fact a Christian denominationâ€â€they are just incorrect in some of their doctrine.

Heh, Ravi Zacharias seems to be a good teacher. I enjoy listening to his sermons and lectures.

I agree the SDA is a Christian denom.... but no denom. is 100% correct in doctrine. 8-)

 

[Vic C.]

Do you believe that Jesus kept a lunar sabbath?

Ooh, I just saw this. I believe Jesus kept all the sabbaths.

 

[wavy]

The OT is certainly an integral part of God's Word. But you do realize, of course, that the OT was written 'by' Jewish prophets, 'for' the Jewish people. Gentiles had absolutely 'NO' access to or need for this information at the time that it was written.

That's somewhat right, I guess, but that's the reason Yahweh gave all his Torah to the Hebrews because he wanted them to be an example to the rest of the world. I also, believe he gave Torah to more than just the Hebrews, but that is my opinon based off of Talmud writings. Yahweh's voice is compared to thunder in scripture. At Mt Sinai, there were many thunderings and lightnings (Exodus 19:16; Exodus 20:18). I believe these thunderings represented tongues. But anyway, Yahweh did say there was ONE Torah for the native and the stranger (Exodus 12:49).

We certainly can learn much of the history and progression of God's relationship with man from this information, but I am of the understanding that, as a Gentile, the NT is ALL that is NEEDED for me to understand Christ's mission and purpose. As stated plainly, if I truly Love God and accept Christ as my personal Savior, God will then write HIS LAWS in my heart. If this isn't the case however, I must have been lied to.

Well, it depends on what writing the torot (laws) on someones heart means. Don't forget also that the New Covenant was only made with Israel. If you are not with them, then I don't know what to tell you. I believe all scripture, both Testaments, are equally important. The Tanach also reveals Messiah's true mission, which he states what it is in Matthew 15:24. But that's a whole other thing. You can't understand hardly ANYTHING about Messiah without reading the Word. That's where Yahshua would direct his disciples for validity of the things they had seen. The Tanach (improperly called the "old testament") is key.

So, all you people who insist that I MUST worship on one day or another, you need to be concentrating on YOUR upholding of these laws in YOUR HEART. I am NOT bound by such and refuse to be. I am free, thank Jesus, from the bonds that you would tie me with. NO THANKS.

Depends on what the bonds are. They are not Torah. And because you would rather consider yourself a pagan apart from Yahweh's only people (Israel) please read Isaiah 56:2-8 and Isaiah 44:5. Yahweh rebukes the "I'd rather be a pagan gentile" type of thinking.

And please do not think that I have abandoned the OT because of these statements. I study it almost as often as the NT. I do love God and find little as pleasurable as learning to understand His nature and the history and proof that it offers of His relationship with mankind. The OT is VERY important for this understanding but has little to do with salvation.

I disagree entirely, but I suppose you do not want to get into why right now...

 

[wavy]

For more information on the error of SDA check The Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter (General Editor Ravi Zacharias)

Note: As the book points out, and for clarification, SDA are not a cult and are in fact a Christian denominationâ€â€they are just incorrect in some of their doctrine.

I've read that book. I have it. That was the first book I consulted when some SDA's had come to me preaching the sabbath (which I despised at the time). Looking back on some of Walter Martin's arguments? It's awful. Seriously. To me, both are wrong on many points (no offense to anyone here). One side (all of the cults) is arguing the grass is purple, the other side tries to write a book to correct that mistake, but argues that the grass is blue. I mean, both are way off. He does have some insightful things in there though.

The one reason why I believe he disproves SDA doctrine is based off of the "dual law" theory he refutes. That wouldn't work with me, though. I believe in all of it, not some unscriptural "moral law"

He also does an excellent job disproving soul sleep..

 

[wavy]

Do you believe that Jesus kept a lunar sabbath?

Yes, I do.

 

[SputnikBoy]

The OT is certainly an integral part of God's Word. But you do realize, of course, that the OT was written 'by' Jewish prophets, 'for' the Jewish people. Gentiles had absolutely 'NO' access to or need for this information at the time that it was written.

We certainly can learn much of the history and progression of God's relationship with man from this information, but I am of the understanding that, as a Gentile, the NT is ALL that is NEEDED for me to understand Christ's mission and purpose. As stated plainly, if I truly Love God and accept Christ as my personal Savior, God will then write HIS LAWS in my heart. If this isn't the case however, I must have been lied to.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 says: "This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts." Seems that this expression is not just a NT one, Imagican, but one binding for ALL of mankind.

We also have a 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18) as well as a 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength (Deuteronomy 6:5).' As you can see, we all seem to be bound by the same instruction whether we be NT Christians or not. What do you have to say about this?

So, all you people who insist that I MUST worship on one day or another, you need to be concentrating on YOUR upholding of these laws in YOUR HEART. I am NOT bound by such and refuse to be. I am free, thank Jesus, from the bonds that you would tie me with. NO THANKS.

Settle down, man, and take a deep breath ...aren't you being a little dramatic here? I don't think anyone has said that you MUST worship on one day or another, Imagican. That's YOUR terminolgy. All that has been pointed out on all of these forums concerning the Ten Commandments, SDAs, the Sabbath, etc. is what the Word of God has to say about these issues. It's personally none of my business on which day you choose to worship. It's none of my business to try and force my views on you in regard to the Sabbath. I have yet to see any reference in the Bible, however, where God's commands apply for one particular nation of human beings yet are not a requirement for another. You're a smart cookie, Imagican, how come you can't see that?

Incidentally, you're missing the point about whether or not someone is 'bound' (your word again) by the upholding of 'these' laws. One doesn't - or shouldn't - observe the Sabbath every week because they HAVE to do so. I think most people observe the Sabbath absolutely willingly and with much gladness in their hearts. You're applying 'legalism' where it doesn't belong, Imagican, if you see this practice of obedience as a 'yoke' around one's neck. I think the majority of SDAs would continue this practice of 'keeping the Sabbath' whether it was a command of God or not. This is the freedom that THEY have through Jesus Christ ...it all comes down to choice. Do I 'choose' to be obedient to God's law? Do I 'choose' NOT to be obedient to God's law? Freedom through Christ. Pretty cool, huh?

And please do not think that I have abandoned the OT because of these statements. I study it almost as often as the NT. I do love God and find little as pleasurable as learning to understand His nature and the history and proof that it offers of His relationship with mankind. The OT is VERY important for this understanding but has little to do with salvation.

I'm not sure, however, that we should base everything we choose (there's that word again) to do on whether or not it's a salvation issue. 'As long as I don't NEED to do it in order to get the reward then I WON'T do it' seems a little selfish.

By the way, the thing that really irks me about the issue of the Sabbath - and this issue IS, yet again, the Sabbath - is that a group of people took a hold of God's Sabbath and tossed it out like a piece of garbage. It doesn't matter right now who these people were. The fact is that they DID do so. And, we ALL know this to be true, regardless of one's persuasion on this issue. I don't understand why every living soul on this forum who claims to love God is not as 'irked' as I am about this fact!

 

[wavy]

So, what do you think about the presentation, sputnik?

 

[SputnikBoy]

So, what do you think about the presentation, sputnik?

Well, I guess it's been somewhat remiss of me to have ignored your original post, wavy. I didn't really ignore it. It was more a case of not really knowing WHAT to say. I didn't want to say anything stupid ...not that that has stopped me in the past! :-D

Seems to me, however, that the days of Creation were dependent on the sun rising and the sun setting more so than dependence on the moon which can and does often appear in the daytime. While there were special feast days and annual sabbaths that DID involve the phases of the moon, I see the weekly Sabbath as being 'fixed' and consistent and more 'user friendly' if you like.

Keeping the Sabbath today as you suggest would muss up one's work week and rest day somewhat. Besides that, as mentioned, the days of Creation were pretty well 'set' so as there would be no mistaking which day was which. I'd like to hear from guibox and Jay T on this issue if they haven't responded already. Forgive me guys if you already have. At this time of posting I don't recall. I would also extend an invitation to an old friend from Christianity.com who will soon, hopefully, be participating in this forum. Have you arrived yet?