Why I believe SDA's (& other sabbatarians) Are In Error

[wavy]

I didn't want to say anything stupid ...not that that has stopped me in the past! :-D

We've all been there, lol.

Seems to me, however, that the days of Creation were dependent on the sun rising and the sun setting more so than dependence on the moon which can and does often appear in the daytime.

Oh, yes. The moon definately does not determine when a day ends or when it begins. I do believe it determines which sunset to sunset day the sabbath is though.

Keeping the Sabbath today as you suggest would muss up one's work week and rest day somewhat.

Yes, it would. But we gotta pick up our cross.

Besides that, as mentioned, the days of Creation were pretty well 'set' so as there would be no mistaking which day was which.

Yes, it was the seventh day after a period of six working days. Yahweh only created animals and man during the six days. Nothing else was created on these days; they were made or formed. Everything was created in the beginning. I believe the beginning was like a dark moon or new moon (when you can't see it, which is why Yahweh had to say, "let there be light" and had to divide the light from the dark in order for there to be evening and morning for each day). The moon was created in the beginning, not on the fourth day. It was appointed on the fourth day, however, for the calendar. He made the two great lights/luminaries or fashioned them in a place in the sky/space, but they had already existed.

Anyway I said all that to say that the sabbath could fall on various days of our calendar week every month. It does not continue without interruption. The new moon period interrupts the seven day count (the new moon is also a rest day and a day of worship). After the new moon the count starts over again. The new moon is the 1st day of each lunar month. On the 2nd the six day count starts. So you would work six days from the 2nd of the month to the 7th of the month and rest on the 8th of the month (which would be the seventh day after six working days: 2nd day=1; 3rd day=2; 4th day=3; 5th day=4; 6th day=5; 7th day=6; 8th day=7). The moon changes its phase every seven days of each month (coincidence?) on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the month.

Seven days later from the 8th is the 15th, the second sabbath of the month. Seven days from there is the 22nd. Seven days from there is the 29th. Then the count starts over after the new moon passes. Thus the sabbath falls on these same days (8th, 15th, 22nd, 29th) every month. On our man-made calendar it would seem weird because it wouldn't fall on the same day over and over from month to month (it falls on the same day of our week four times for each month, but a different day from month to month).

But I do believe that is the way Yahweh set it up. There's just overwhelming evidence for it in the scriptures.

 

[Imagican]

Wavy,

I must first address your trying to justify ANYTHING with reference to the Talmud. This is a collection of writings filled with misinformation. So much so, that the Jews of today are still suffering from it's effects. You may as well try and justify God's will by quoting the Cabal.

That said, let us move on.

Christ plainly 'tried' to teach us that EVERY DAY is the God's day. We are no longer commanded to rest from righteousness. We are to do 'good' EVERYDAY. This leaves no time for rest.

The sabbath is the same now as it ever was. And Spunt, I think you have read enough of my posts to know that I am well aware of the hijacking of this day away from the people who have been led astray of the 'truth'.

I do not contend that one's acceptance of ANY law will be used to condemn them. I contend that the acceptance of these laws and failure to follow them will allow those that so choose to condemn themselves. If you believe something in your heart, you better adhere to it.

And Spunt, I don't capitalize to show anger, only to emphasize. I am passionate in my beliefs, but rarely do I get in a huff as some may interpret my posts.

And wavy, I do not consider myself to be a 'pagan Gentile'. I was not born with Jewish blood, so I am not a Jew. I am a son of God, but a Gentile son, no doubt.

There were Gentiles of the OT time period that knew God. There is much indication that Job was not 'one of God's chosen people' by birth, but by faith. Those that choose to love are often touched by God's will and wisdom regardless of their heritage.

I simply offered that the OT WAS written by and to the Jewish, (Hebrew?) race. Even though the NT was itself written by these same people, it was written for ALL people. And I am not simply referring to the Bible that we posses today, I referring to the original documents and scrolls.

God's laws delivered to the Hebrews was not only a set of rules to govern their behavior but just as much offered and commanded to follow to 'separate' this people from all others. A way to conform their lives that would offer a distinguishing difference between them and ALL others.

I have read the OT over and over and I would offer that the simple fact that it is so misunderstood and much of it's truth misinterpreted by the modern churches that it's effects do more to separate 'still' than 'bring together' those that would follow truth.

And I guess guys that I was wrong to jump in on this one. I didn't really understand what wavy was offering. I now realize that he was more concerned with the physical possibilities of days than on the 'keeping' of the Sabbath. My apologies. I'll let you get back to the subject.

 

[Vic C.]

Here's something that came to mind during service this morning... it isn't scriptual, as far as I know (hmm, maybe it is) but here it is...

Could we be dealing with two kinds of rest; one physical and one spiritual? God commanded a physical rest but only those in Christ can acheive the spiritual rest Jesus assures us.

 

[Solo]

That is exactly what it is, Vic. Only those that are born of God can see that though. That is were the division is; it is divided between the understanding of the flesh and the spirit. Oh well, not everyone will get on the strait and narrow road because of their own pride and the deceptions that have been laid out for them to swallow.

 

[wavy]

We are no longer commanded to rest from righteousness

When were we ever required to do so?

That is exactly what it is, Vic. Only those that are born of God can see that though. That is were the division is; it is divided between the understanding of the flesh and the spirit. Oh well, not everyone will get on the strait and narrow road because of their own pride and the deceptions that have been laid out for them to swallow.

You just refuse to see the truth don't you? We understand a spiritual rest in Messiah. This has nothing to do with whether or not we keep the sabbath day though. Just like the spiritual principle of merely looking lustfully at a woman being adultery doesn't mean we may now go have fleshly sex with a woman other than our wife.

This is your mistake. This is what YOU can't see. Yet everytime I bring up this flawless example of where you are wrong at, you ignore it and continue to say the type of nonsense that you just said.

 

[Solo]

We are no longer commanded to rest from righteousness

When were we ever required to do so?

You must be talking to yourself wavy, because I couldn't find anyone on this thread that made the statement that we are no longer commanded to rest from righteousness. Is this your comment? Jesus fulfilled God's law and his righteousness is imputed to all believers.

That is exactly what it is, Vic. Only those that are born of God can see that though. That is were the division is; it is divided between the understanding of the flesh and the spirit. Oh well, not everyone will get on the strait and narrow road because of their own pride and the deceptions that have been laid out for them to swallow.

You just refuse to see the truth don't you? We understand a spiritual rest in Messiah. This has nothing to do with whether or not we keep the sabbath day though. Just like the spiritual principle of merely looking lustfully at a woman being adultery doesn't mean we may now go have fleshly sex with a woman other than our wife.

This is your mistake. This is what YOU can't see. Yet everytime I bring up this flawless example of where you are wrong at, you ignore it and continue to say the type of nonsense that you just said.

God established a spiritual understanding for his law when he wrote it on the hearts of those that are born of God. The keeping of the Sabbath day holy, now comes into play in that every day should be kept holy unto God, and that we are to enter into the rest provided us in Jesus, and that we are to be about God's business seven days a week, ceasing from our own works. Hebrews 4 couldn't be plainer.

A physical rest for ones corrupt, mortal body does not mean a thing now that we have been born of God and are resting in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. We now serve God in the Spirit crucifying the flesh until our body is changed at the resurrection or, if we are alive when Jesus returns, at our gathering together to him in the air. Our spiritual inward man cannot sin as it is born of God, but our corrupt, mortal flesh is still sold under sin. The picture of the Sabbath of the Old Testament was a picture of believers resting from their own works once the Holy Spirit directed us into the works of God the Father.

You are wrong believing that your corrupt, mortal flesh can serve God and give him joy. The righteousness of the corrupt, flesh of man makes Jesus puke. Man can only serve God in the Spirit because in the flesh dwells no good thing. What exactly does God receive when your flesh rests from physical work one day a week? Does he not mean to cease from man's works and instead be about the business of the kingdom of God? Your fleshly understanding of entering into God's rest is juvenile at best.

When you get to the point of understanding being born of God at salvation, you will see the true rest of the saviour Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. Until then you will only have unity with those that are in error.

 

[wavy]

You must be talking to yourself wavy, because I couldn't find anyone on this thread that made the statement that we are no longer commanded to rest from righteousness. Is this your comment?

Please read Imagican's post.

Jesus fulfilled God's law and his righteousness is imputed to all believers.

How many times are you going to repeat this to me?

As for the rest of what you said, more comments, no scripture. I could say "we are supposed to commit murder everyday because we refrain from killing spiritually" and say "1 John 3:15 couldn't be plainer".

You still haven't explained how Hebrews backs your point (which it doesn't). Do you wanna go over it verse by verse? You keep inserting your vague explantions of being "born of God" without any scripture. Nothing in Hebrews 4 says anything against sabbath day keeping.

You also keep saying the SAME THING in that we are now, as if we were not before, supposed to do Yahweh's good works everyday. When was it not that way? You are mixing spiritual and literal where it does not fit.

You say "everyday is a day to be kept holy by doing God's works".

When was it not this way? And when did this ever have to do with obeying the literal sabbath day commandment? Where in Torah does it say "only do Yahweh's works and be holy on the sabbath day"? It doesn't say that anywhere. Yet you keep contrasting keeping the literal sabbath day to being holy everyday when there is no contrast at all.

We keep the sabbath because Yahweh commanded it as a rest day for us and to let all the pagan world know that we are his people, and because it shows forth the things to come (Colossians 2:17). There's a difference between BOASTING that you keep the sabbath, and keeping the sabbath in faith and love because Yahweh TOLD/COMMANDED you to do it.

You can't seem to make the distinction. You just continue to make comments that we don't have some type of warm fuzzy, abstract, undefined spiritual understanding you have, BUT CANNOT SHOW IT FROM THE SCRIPTURE.

 

[wavy]

Those of the Mosaic Law could not be born of the Spirit of God until Jesus ascended whereby he allowed the comfortor to come.

Let me ask you a question: was David filled with the Spirit? A simple yes or no question.

The rest to enter into is not a physical rest, but a spiritual rest in Jesus.

Show me that with scripture. We do have a coming rest, but show me in scripture where we do not have to keep the sabbath? And it does have spiritual significance. Please Read Exodus 31:13. It is an appointed time for brothers to worship Yahweh also in one accord. A kadosh convocation according to Leviticus 23.

What is so difficult to understand, and why place manmade ordinances to the grace of God?

What is so diffifult to understand that you are not explaining anything to me with scripture for me to understand it? Also, since when was the sabbath a manmade ordinance? And tell why Yahweh (who is eternally graceful) gave the Torah if he does not change?

The pharisees thought that their righteousness was enough to gain them entrance into heaven, but Jesus' righteousness is the only righteousness that will get anyone into heaven.

I agree that Messiah is the only way to heaven and by faith in him. But this has to be shown by obedience. Those who say they are in him and do not keep his commandments are liars (1 John 2:4).

The Pharisees were damned because they were hypocrites. They taught and added extrascriptural burdens, but they did not do it themselves except only to be seen (Check Matthew 23). But the reasons for what they did are not the reasons for why I keep Torah.

Jesus Christ, the fullness of God in the flesh, God Almighty himself, Father God, proclaimed that unless one became born of God, he would not see the kingdom of God, nor enter the kingdom of God. That is the importance of the message of Jesus Christ on earth. Jesus did not teach that one would be born of God if he kept the Sabbath, he taught that one would be born of God, if he believed. PERIOD.

When did anyone say one was born through the Spirit if they kept the sabbath? Here you go accusing people falsely again.

Why is that so hard for you to see, and why would you rather keep the law, than believe in Jesus Christ, God almighty?

And here you go again. I believe in Yahshua, but since that is already established, we must think about how we show that we believe in Yahshua by our conduct. We walk as he walked (he kept Torah) and do it because of love (John 14:15) and because he is Yahweh and commands it. Why is THAT so hard for YOU to see?

Please answer the questions legitimately with scripture. Do not just make comments that I do not understand. Back up your statements.

Because by your own words and principles, what we should be doing is deliberately finding way to sin. Why? Because all we should do is believe. We shouldn't try to conduct ourselves righteously in love. We should just believe in "Jesus" and not be a good worker or show our belief.

Do you believe we should be baptized?

 

[wavy]

Wavy,

I must first address your trying to justify ANYTHING with reference to the Talmud. This is a collection of writings filled with misinformation. So much so, that the Jews of today are still suffering from it's effects. You may as well try and justify God's will by quoting the Cabal.

Talmud does have insights, however. Not everything in it is necessarily "wrong".

Christ plainly 'tried' to teach us that EVERY DAY is the God's day. We are no longer commanded to rest from righteousness. We are to do 'good' EVERYDAY. This leaves no time for rest.

O.K., but you say this as if every day didn't used to belong to Yahweh at one point and that we were never supposed to do good everyday. What are you basing this on?

Anyway, this shows (no offense) a misunderstanding of the sabbath on your part. It is a day for us to cease from occupation, a miqra kodesh (holy convocation/gathering), a day to cease from earthly matters and concentrate specifically on Yahweh (Isaiah 58:13-14), a day that set's us apart from the rest of the world (Exodus 31:13), and a day to remember that he created heaven and earth and acknowledge that he created heaven and earth. It is also a worship day (Isaiah 66:23) and a shadow of things to come (Colossians 2:16-17).

He blessed this day and set it apart for our usefulness. But this never meant the sabbath was the only day we were supposed to do right. That's nowhere in scripture. What Messiah had to correct some Jews and the Pharisees on was that doing good on it was ALRIGHT, not that we didn't have to keep it.

I contend that the acceptance of these laws and failure to follow them will allow those that so choose to condemn themselves. If you believe something in your heart, you better adhere to it.

It can only curse us or condemn if we fail to follow it as a lifestyle. Yahweh knows we stumble. "Perfection" in Torah is not what he requires. A good heart towards keeping his commandments in love is what he requires.

And wavy, I do not consider myself to be a 'pagan Gentile'. I was not born with Jewish blood, so I am not a Jew. I am a son of God, but a Gentile son, no doubt.

Yahweh has adopted no "gentiles". A believer is considered Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). Also check Isaiah 56:2-8 and Isaiah 44:5.

There were Gentiles of the OT time period that knew God.

Of course.

Those that choose to love are often touched by God's will and wisdom regardless of their heritage.

No dispute here. This does not mean you separate yourself from his people (Israel) and consider yourself a "gentile" so you don't have to obey Torah.

God's laws delivered to the Hebrews was not only a set of rules to govern their behavior but just as much offered and commanded to follow to 'separate' this people from all others. A way to conform their lives that would offer a distinguishing difference between them and ALL others.

Exactly, and it is the same way today. Israel is his one and only set-apart nation. All people can join them and all believers are considered as Israel.

I didn't really understand what wavy was offering. I now realize that he was more concerned with the physical possibilities of days than on the 'keeping' of the Sabbath. My apologies. I'll let you get back to the subject.

I didn't get this. Could you elaborate? Thanx.

 

[Solo]

Jesus fulfilled God's law and his righteousness is imputed to all believers. [/color]

How many times are you going to repeat this to me?

As many times as it takes each time you claim that you must keep the law.

As for the rest of what you said, more comments, no scripture. I could say "we are supposed to commit murder everyday because we refrain from killing spiritually" and say "1 John 3:15 couldn't be plainer".

No you would be in error. Jesus said that you have heard that it was said that Thou shalt not commit murder, but I tell you that you will be in danger of the judgment if you get angry with your brother without a cause. Jesus would have said if it wasn't easily understood by those born of God that it was said in the past to keep the sabbath day holy unto the Lord, but you should keep everyday holy unto the Lord especially since the Holy Spirit, God himself dwells within you, and you are now the temple of God.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, F10 shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. Matthew 5:21-26

You still haven't explained how Hebrews backs your point (which it doesn't). Do you wanna go over it verse by verse? You keep inserting your vague explantions of being "born of God" without any scripture. Nothing in Hebrews 4 says anything against sabbath day keeping.

I would have figured that you would understand what being born of God means, but since Nicodemas, a Jewish Pharisee, didn't understand, it isn't a wonder that you do not understand either. I am sorry that I took this for granted.[/quote]

Let us look at John, chapter 3, verse 3. Jesus tells Nicodemus that a man must be born from above, translated born again, or he can not see the kingdom of God. Not just enter the Kingdom of God, but see the Kingdom of God also.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus having been educated in the TORAH inside and out asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (John 3:4)

Jesus answers him in John 3:5-8. Unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh (born of Physical is Physical), and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (Born of God the Spirit is spirit). Therefore, unless a man is born again = born from above = born of the Spirit = born of God he cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, [colore=red]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[/color]

Nicodemus did not understand, so he asked Jesus, "How can these things be?"

Now Nicodemus was a teacher of the Law but he did not understand the portion of being born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God. Jesus answered him stating that Nicodemus being a teacher receives not the witness that Jesus provides, even though Jesus knows absolutely that it is true, and I know that Jesus does not lie. Jesus continues and says that whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish, but have eternal life. God gave his only begotten son Jesus Christ, that whosoever believes in his works will not perish. Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world. All in the world are condemned already, but those that believe in Jesus Christ are not condemned. The reason that some men do not come to the light of the world, Jesus Christ, is that they prefer the darkness that hides their evil deeds.

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:10-21

Therefore those that believe the Word of God that Jesus Christ died for the sins of those that believe and rose from the dead, will not be condemned or perish but will enter the Kingdom of God. Those that believe have believed because they were born of God.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

Those born of God do not sin.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:4-10

As far as the rest of God and the meaning of Hebrews 4. It is evident that not all of the Israelites that kept the Sabbath day entered into God's rest. When their carcusses fell by the wayside God did not permit them to enter into his rest. Was this a physical day? No.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:16-18

What is Hebrews 4 telling us today. Is it telling us to enter the sabbath day of rest? Why would God be telling us of a Sabbath day of rest when he wasn't speaking of a Sabbath day of rest that some of the Israelites who kept the Sabbath would not enter in?

God shares with us through the inspired writer of Hebrews that the significance of entering into the rest of God was pictured in his creation whereby God worked for six days and then rested on the seventh. This signified a rest that God had prepared for those that believed then and now. The Word was preached to them, but some of them did not believe, so it did not profit them. If they would have had faith, they would have believed and therefore would have entered into God's rest. We which have believed do enter into His rest, and if we enter into His rest, we will cease from OUR OWN WORKS just as God rested from his. God is our example so that when we enter His rest which is a belief in Jesus Christ's gospel, we cease from our own works.

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Hebrews 4:1-10

Therefore, man should labor to enter into the rest by having faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ by believing the Word of God. For the Word of God is quick, powerful, sharper that any twoedged sword; piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. All things are naked and open unto the eyes of Jesus. Through Jesus we who are born of God can come to Him for grace and mercy in time of need.


11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:11-16

You also keep saying the SAME THING in that we are now, as if we were not before, supposed to do Yahweh's good works everyday. When was it not that way? You are mixing spiritual and literal where it does not fit.

We are now to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and walk according to the commandments of Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the Law and enhanced the commandments with greater spiritual meaning which those Jews who did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit could gain forgiveness by believing God's Law given them by Moses, keeping the sacrificial ordinences and feasts given as a picture of things to come.

You say "everyday is a day to be kept holy by doing God's works".

When was it not this way? And when did this ever have to do with obeying the literal sabbath day commandment? Where in Torah does it say "only do Yahweh's works and be holy on the sabbath day"? It doesn't say that anywhere. Yet you keep contrasting keeping the literal sabbath day to being holy everyday when there is no contrast at all.

I don't make a split between keeping one day holy apart from the others. Sabbatarians do. I believe that Jesus is a believers rest, and that he fulfilled the Law. He fulfilled the sacrifice, therefore I do not need to sacrifice any longer. He gave us the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, therefore I keep every day holy because I am now the temple. I don't need to go to the temple in order to keep the Sabbath day holy. I also don't need to quit working in order to keep everyday holy, because I cease from my own works everyday, and allow the Holy Spirit's works to take precedence over my own works. The rest of God is Jesus Christ, and we are to cease from our works and instead live in God's works, just as Jesus gave us the example.

We keep the sabbath because Yahweh commanded it as a rest day for us and to let all the pagan world know that we are his people, and because it shows forth the things to come (Colossians 2:17). There's a difference between BOASTING that you keep the sabbath, and keeping the sabbath in faith and love because Yahweh TOLD/COMMANDED you to do it.

The Word of God tells us that the eating of food, drinking of drinks, holy days, new moons, sabbath days are a shadow of things to come. Since Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, and we are in Christ Jesus' rest, we are not under the commandments and doctrines of men, and no man should judge another on their eats, drinks, holy days, sabbath days, etc.
The sabbath was given to the Israelites as a shadow of the rest which was in Christ Jesus.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:13-23

You can't seem to make the distinction. You just continue to make comments that we don't have some type of warm fuzzy, abstract, undefined spiritual understanding you have, BUT CANNOT SHOW IT FROM THE SCRIPTURE.

I make the distinction just fine. I just did not understand your inability to understand scripture when directed to book and chapter. From now on I will make an expostion of scripture on all of my answers to you. If you don't understand them, you can tell me, and I will assist your understanding as best I can. Thanks.

 

[wavy]

As many times as it takes each time you claim that you must keep the law.

What does it mean, then? I asked you this before. Tell me what it means AND back it up with scripture.

No you would be in error.

Not by your logic.

Jesus would have said if it wasn't easily understood by those born of God that it was said in the past to keep the sabbath day holy unto the Lord, but you should keep everyday holy unto the Lord especially since the Holy Spirit, God himself dwells within you, and you are now the temple of God.

You didn't prove this with scripture. The scriptures you did quote are irrelevant to the point. You are not answering my questions or explaining why you have not contradicted yourself. You are making claims.

Let us look at John, chapter 3, verse 3. Jesus tells Nicodemus that a man must be born from above, translated born again, or he can not see the kingdom of God. Not just enter the Kingdom of God, but see the Kingdom of God also.

This isn't the point. This is still not answering any of my questions.

Now Nicodemus was a teacher of the Law but he did not understand the portion of being born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God. Jesus answered him stating that Nicodemus being a teacher receives not the witness that Jesus provides, even though Jesus knows absolutely that it is true, and I know that Jesus does not lie.

Nicodemus was in error for not knowing the born again principle. He SHOULD have, but had obviously not been well grounded in Torah and in the knowledge of Yahweh enough. This is why Yahshua asked him how could he not know this he being a teacher (John 3:10).

Jesus continues and says that whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish, but have eternal life. God gave his only begotten son Jesus Christ, that whosoever believes in his works will not perish. Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world. All in the world are condemned already, but those that believe in Jesus Christ are not condemned. The reason that some men do not come to the light of the world, Jesus Christ, is that they prefer the darkness that hides their evil deeds.

This is not answering what I want you to show me and is therefore irrelevant to the point. When I said use scripture, I meant scripture that was relevant to my questions and points. And, btw, 1 John is against your point.

And again, I just read your explanation of Hebrews. It's flawed because you are inserting sabbath day rest to the context. The point is not the sabbath day verses a spiritual sabbath. You inserted that into the context.

The sabbath from creation was mentioned as an example of the rest that is TO COME. Your whole basis is that we are in the rest mentioned here in Hebrews through "Jesus", but the author of Hebrews makes it clear that we have NOT entered into the rest yet, (PLEASE, read Hebrews 4:6 and Hebrews 4:9 and Hebrews 4:11). These verses clearly indicate that we have not entered into the rest yet.

So explain to me what the "rest" that Joshua was supposed to give them according to verse 8. Because the passage is contrasting whatever this rest is in verse 8 to the spiritual sabbath rest, not the sabbath day vs. the FUTURE sabbath rest. There is your error, and therefore, a flawed interpretation.

We are now to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and walk according to the commandments of Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the Law and enhanced the commandments with greater spiritual meaning which those Jews who did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit could gain forgiveness by believing God's Law given them by Moses, keeping the sacrificial ordinences and feasts given as a picture of things to come.

Where's the SCRIPTURE??? Yahshua did not "enhance" any laws. And what are Yahshua's commandments? Are they different from Torah? If "yes", where is the SCRIPTURE to prove that? You are doing a terrible job of doing what I requested.

I don't make a split between keeping one day holy apart from the others. Sabbatarians do.

How? By resting on the sabbath day as Yahweh commanded? You keep asserting that those who keep the sabbath are not holy everyday. That is wrong. We are always supposed to walk holy everyday. It is just that when the sabbath comes, WE REST, as a part of our being holy. It is a holy gathering day of worship. A shadow of things to come. You keep creating a false dilemma: that if you keep the sabbath day, that means you are only being holy one day a week. You are comparing apples and oranges.

I believe that Jesus is a believers rest, and that he fulfilled the Law.

Yahshua is rest, but not rest as opposed to the sabbath day. You have NOT proven that with scripture. And again, what does it mean for him to have "fulfilled the law"? Explain with SCRIPTURE please, please, PLEASE.

He gave us the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, therefore I keep every day holy because I am now the temple. I don't need to go to the temple in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.

What in the world are you talking about? Where in scripture does it say you have to go to the temple to keep the sabbath? And you are comparing apples and oranges here again. We are always supposed to be holy on every day. But that has nothing to do with obeying the commandment to REST on the sabbath. You are putting things where they don't belong and you keep saying this time and time again after I have addressed it time and time again and asked to to explain with SCRIPTURE. You keep repeating the SAME THING. Then after I tell you you use NO SCRIPTURE, you just say "you have to be born of God". Weak argument.

I also don't need to quit working in order to keep everyday holy, because I cease from my own works everyday, and allow the Holy Spirit's works to take precedence over my own works.

Comparing apples and oranges.

The rest of God is Jesus Christ, and we are to cease from our works and instead live in God's works, just as Jesus gave us the example.

You are contrasting this with the sabbath, yet have presented no scripture to prove Yahshua as rest as opposed to the sabbath. The only thing you tried to use was Hebrews 4 but that has nothing to do with sabbath day vs. the FUTURE rest or Yahshua as our rest. Once again, you lack scripture.

And if you want to talk about examples, Yahshua kept the sabbath day.

The Word of God tells us that the eating of food, drinking of drinks, holy days, new moons, sabbath days are a shadow of things to come.

They are. And this is a good thing, because we are not in the "to come" yet. So we show forth was is to come to the world by the feasts, shabbats, new moons, etc.

Since Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, and we are in Christ Jesus' rest, we are not under the commandments and doctrines of men, and no man should judge another on their eats, drinks, holy days, sabbath days, etc.

The sabbath is NOT a doctrine of men. And you have still NOT explained how Messiah "fulfilled the law". You are ASSUMING it means that he "fulfilled" it meaning "we don't have to keep it" but where is your SCRIPTURE. You are lacking on all the major points. You stopped using scripture when it was relevant to what I am asking.

The sabbath was given to the Israelites as a shadow of the rest which was in Christ Jesus.

No scriptural support. This is your OPINION. Yahweh said it was a sign between us and Yahweh FOREVER and it will be kept according in the future, even in the new heavens and earth (Isaiah 66:23).

I make the distinction just fine. I just did not understand your inability to understand scripture when directed to book and chapter. From now on I will make an expostion of scripture on all of my answers to you. If you don't understand them, you can tell me, and I will assist your understanding as best I can. Thanks.

The scripture you used was irrelevant to the point. Hebrews 4 was distorted, so you need to go back and answer my questions and refutations on that (just don't say "you don't understand"). You also said the sabbath was a commandment and doctrine of men. Where is this? You have taken Colossians out of pure context too.

You can direct me to a book and chapter (the ones you used I've read a million times) but that does not mean what you INSERT into it is true. So now you need to go back and explain how the context of certain scriptures fit your interpretation (which you have not proven why they do) You haven't done a very good job in answering me..

 

[adventageous]

I would also extend an invitation to an old friend from Christianity.com who will soon, hopefully, be participating in this forum. Have you arrived yet?[/color]

:smt039, Sputnik!

My account was finally activated. I'll respond later for I'm not in a favourable position to do so right now. But, interesting comments nevertheless.

Also, I'd like to get acclimated to this new forum and posters (ie., who are the protagonists and antagonists :P ). I hate jumping heads first on my first day into such a hotly, debated topic, for it doesn't quite create a favourable impression on my behalf.

I would like to ask the thread starter one question: Do you honor any Sabbath? If so, on what day(s)? And why? This is only to give me a perspective of where you're coming from with your original post.

 

[Solo]

As many times as it takes each time you claim that you must keep the law.

What does it mean, then? I asked you this before. Tell me what it means AND back it up with scripture.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

Jesus did not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but he came to fulfil.

The word translated fulfil is the Greek word, transliterated Pleroo. The word comes from the root word pleres which means full, filled up; complete, lacking nothing.

The meaning of the verb pleroo translated fulfil is:

to make full, to fill up, to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

to render full, to complete, to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim.

to consummate: a number, to make complete in every particular, to render perfect, to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out,
to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

Therefore Jesus came not to destroy the law but to complete, fill up abundantly lacking nothing, consumated, accomplished and brought to realization all that the law had to offer. Jesus kept the entire law, and was the only one able to keep the law, therefore, Jesus completed the law whereby it lacked nothing. There is absolutely nothing that Jew or Gentile could do to accomplish anything more obeying the law than was already accomplished by Jesus Christ. Today those that are born of God are not under the law which was completed by Jesus Christ, but we are under grace. Those that are born of God are baptized into Jesus Christ into His death, so that as we are buried with him, we are raised from the dead just as he was. We walk in the newness of life because Jesus fulfilled the law. The law did not have to be destroyed, because Jesus completed the law. Those that believe the Word of God and are born of God have been baptized into Jesus' death and resurrection by the Holy Spirit. Paul explains this message plainly in Romans.

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:1-23

No you would be in error.

Not by your logic.

You are in error because you are attempting to bypass Jesus' work on the cross, so that you yourself can accomplish through the law what Jesus completed in his life, and on the cross, and in his resurrection, and in his ascension.

Jesus would have said if it wasn't easily understood by those born of God that it was said in the past to keep the sabbath day holy unto the Lord, but you should keep everyday holy unto the Lord especially since the Holy Spirit, God himself dwells within you, and you are now the temple of God.

You didn't prove this with scripture. The scriptures you did quote are irrelevant to the point. You are not answering my questions or explaining why you have not contradicted yourself. You are making claims.

To you the scriptures that I quoted were irrelevant because they did not match your interpretation. On one post you say that the sabbath is a day set aside for no work and rest, and in the next post you say that the sabbath is not related to the rest indicated in Hebrews 4, and then in the next post you speak of keeping the sabbath holy along with every day, and the next post................who knows what you will claim next.

The Sabbath day commandment was given to the Israelites in Exodus, and not given before. The seventh day is mentioned in the creation as God resting, just as it is mentioned in Hebrews 4 designating that believers should cease from their own works as God ceased from His work at creation. Simple.

Let us look at John, chapter 3, verse 3. Jesus tells Nicodemus that a man must be born from above, translated born again, or he can not see the kingdom of God. Not just enter the Kingdom of God, but see the Kingdom of God also.

This isn't the point. This is still not answering any of my questions.

This is precisely the point. Your understanding of salvation is dependent upon your ability to keep commandments, and the truth of the matter is that your keeping any commandments will not gain you access into the Kingdom of God. The only way that you will see or enter the Kingdom of God is by being born of God. If you do not accomplish this process, then you will see an eternity apart from God no matter how many Sabbath's you keep.

Now Nicodemus was a teacher of the Law but he did not understand the portion of being born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God. Jesus answered him stating that Nicodemus being a teacher receives not the witness that Jesus provides, even though Jesus knows absolutely that it is true, and I know that Jesus does not lie.

Nicodemus was in error for not knowing the born again principle. He SHOULD have, but had obviously not been well grounded in Torah and in the knowledge of Yahweh enough. This is why Yahshua asked him how could he not know this he being a teacher (John 3:10).

Oh, I think that Nicodemus was very well grounded in the Torah, as was Paul as he was persecuting believers. Nicodemus recognized that Jesus was a teacher from God, and that God was with him. Nicodemus was also a ruler of the Jews, so his abilities were very great. Nicodemus could not see past the practical application of the Torah to the spiritual application of Jesus' teachings. Nicodemus is the only Pharisee recorded that recognized that Jesus was a man of God. Paul studied under Gamaliel in Jerusalem and did not know until he was on the road to Damascus. He was born of God at that moment.

Jesus continues and says that whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish, but have eternal life. God gave his only begotten son Jesus Christ, that whosoever believes in his works will not perish. Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world. All in the world are condemned already, but those that believe in Jesus Christ are not condemned. The reason that some men do not come to the light of the world, Jesus Christ, is that they prefer the darkness that hides their evil deeds.

This is not answering what I want you to show me and is therefore irrelevant to the point. When I said use scripture, I meant scripture that was relevant to my questions and points. And, btw, 1 John is against your point.

And again, I just read your explanation of Hebrews. It's flawed because you are inserting sabbath day rest to the context. The point is not the sabbath day verses a spiritual sabbath. You inserted that into the context.

The sabbath from creation was mentioned as an example of the rest that is TO COME. Your whole basis is that we are in the rest mentioned here in Hebrews through "Jesus", but the author of Hebrews makes it clear that we have NOT entered into the rest yet, (PLEASE, read Hebrews 4:6 and Hebrews 4:9 and Hebrews 4:11). These verses clearly indicate that we have not entered into the rest yet.

So explain to me what the "rest" that Joshua was supposed to give them according to verse 8. Because the passage is contrasting whatever this rest is in verse 8 to the spiritual sabbath rest, not the sabbath day vs. the FUTURE sabbath rest. There is your error, and therefore, a flawed interpretation.

The future sabbath rest that you are so assured of is not future at all, thus your error and flawed understanding. The rest that is equated to God's rest during creation is attributed to the rest in Jesus Christ through faith. The rest that is spoken of is not the one day per week sabbath. No it is the spiritual rest given those born of God in Jesus Christ, the rest depicted by the rest for the Israelites in the wilderness that they failed to obtain because of unbelief. Your understanding of the sabbath is flawed, and your determination of it being a sign as one being a child of God is flawed, for some of those that kept the seventh day in the wilderness, did not enter into God's rest because of unbelief.

We are now to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and walk according to the commandments of Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the Law and enhanced the commandments with greater spiritual meaning which those Jews who did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit could gain forgiveness by believing God's Law given them by Moses, keeping the sacrificial ordinences and feasts given as a picture of things to come.

Where's the SCRIPTURE??? Yahshua did not "enhance" any laws. And what are Yahshua's commandments? Are they different from Torah? If "yes", where is the SCRIPTURE to prove that? You are doing a terrible job of doing what I requested.

You keep the Torah if you want to, but remember to keep the entire Torah. Where does God tell you in the Word that you can just keep a portion of the Torah? Where does God tell you in the Word that you do not have to abide by the entire levitical law?

I have shown you, where I am not under the law, but under grace. I rest in Jesus Christ's work just as he taught.

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:25-30

I don't make a split between keeping one day holy apart from the others. Sabbatarians do.

How? By resting on the sabbath day as Yahweh commanded? You keep asserting that those who keep the sabbath are not holy everyday. That is wrong. We are always supposed to walk holy everyday. It is just that when the sabbath comes, WE REST, as a part of our being holy. It is a holy gathering day of worship. A shadow of things to come. You keep creating a false dilemma: that if you keep the sabbath day, that means you are only being holy one day a week. You are comparing apples and oranges.

No where did I say that those who keep the sabbath are not holy. I said that if you are going to keep one day holy, you are in error, for everyday should be kept holy unto God for God now lives inside everyone that is born of God. Hebrews 4 says that as God rested on the seventh day, we who believe should rest by ceasing from our own works. Every day should be a holy day of worshipping God. Where do you get off thinking that only one day is a day of resting from your own works so that you can worship God. Your dilemma is that you do not understand worship or rest, and you don't know who fulfilled the law so you did not have to. You keep changing apples to oranges and then back to apples, but the bottom line is that the Keeping of the Sabbath was given to the Israelites as the Law of Moses, and Jesus completed the law so abundantly that you and I and all believers did not have to.

I believe that Jesus is a believers rest, and that he fulfilled the Law.

Yahshua is rest, but not rest as opposed to the sabbath day. You have NOT proven that with scripture. And again, what does it mean for him to have "fulfilled the law"? Explain with SCRIPTURE please, please, PLEASE.

I have, over and over.

He gave us the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, therefore I keep every day holy because I am now the temple. I don't need to go to the temple in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.

What in the world are you talking about? Where in scripture does it say you have to go to the temple to keep the sabbath? And you are comparing apples and oranges here again. We are always supposed to be holy on every day. But that has nothing to do with obeying the commandment to REST on the sabbath. You are putting things where they don't belong and you keep saying this time and time again after I have addressed it time and time again and asked to to explain with SCRIPTURE. You keep repeating the SAME THING. Then after I tell you you use NO SCRIPTURE, you just say "you have to be born of God". Weak argument.

The Israelites went to the synagog on the Sabbath and God dwelt in the Holy of Holies at the Temple, but now that God dwells right inside of all who are born of God, they should worship God every day by their ceasing from their own works, and every day should be kept holy. One of these days if I keep repeating over and over again, God can use this truth to make a dent in your stubborness and lack of understanding what he is saying to you in the Word of God.

I also don't need to quit working in order to keep everyday holy, because I cease from my own works everyday, and allow the Holy Spirit's works to take precedence over my own works.

Comparing apples and oranges.

Not comparing apples and oranges. Taking your definition of sabbath up keep and explaining that Hebrews 4 makes it plain that we are to cease from our own works and be about the works of God, and not go to the chuch on saturday passing through some litergy here and there because we decided on our own that because God did not work on the seventh day, then we should not work either. Hebrews 4 does not explain God's rest as the Sabbath keepers do. No wonder you want to look at Hebrews 4 in a different light.

The rest of God is Jesus Christ, and we are to cease from our works and instead live in God's works, just as Jesus gave us the example.

You are contrasting this with the sabbath, yet have presented no scripture to prove Yahshua as rest as opposed to the sabbath. The only thing you tried to use was Hebrews 4 but that has nothing to do with sabbath day vs. the FUTURE rest or Yahshua as our rest. Once again, you lack scripture.

And if you want to talk about examples, Yahshua kept the sabbath day.

Jesus kept the sabbath day because he was Jewish and under the law. I am not under the law, and if you are born of God, you are not under the law either. If you keep the law then you better keep the whole law or you are wasting your time.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:9-14

The Word of God tells us that the eating of food, drinking of drinks, holy days, new moons, sabbath days are a shadow of things to come.

They are. And this is a good thing, because we are not in the "to come" yet. So we show forth was is to come to the world by the feasts, shabbats, new moons, etc.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:4-23

Since Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, and we are in Christ Jesus' rest, we are not under the commandments and doctrines of men, and no man should judge another on their eats, drinks, holy days, sabbath days, etc.

The sabbath is NOT a doctrine of men. And you have still NOT explained how Messiah "fulfilled the law". You are ASSUMING it means that he "fulfilled" it meaning "we don't have to keep it" but where is your SCRIPTURE. You are lacking on all the major points. You stopped using scripture when it was relevant to what I am asking.

You do not keep the Torah either. You keep what is convienent for you to keep. The Sabbath day is kept holy by your own opinion, and you cease from vocational work, but continue in your own works apart from God's will. Jesus completed the law, and as we abide in him, we are about God's work, not our own. It is not some let's copy the Israelites way of life according to the Old Testament that Jesus was our example to follow. Why would he have us follow the law when we are now under grace; and why would he have had to die on the cross if man was able to keep the law? Your ole corrupt, mortal flesh combats your ability to walk in the Spirit 100% of the time day in and day out, and your finite mind is not able to remember or know the sins that you commit by trying to keep the Torah.

The sabbath was given to the Israelites as a shadow of the rest which was in Christ Jesus.

No scriptural support. This is your OPINION. Yahweh said it was a sign between us and Yahweh FOREVER and it will be kept according in the future, even in the new heavens and earth (Isaiah 66:23).

Plenty of scripture was given. Hebrews 3 and 4 is sufficient to gain a complete understanding of the rest and the ceasing of our works as we abide in Christ Jesus.

I make the distinction just fine. I just did not understand your inability to understand scripture when directed to book and chapter. From now on I will make an expostion of scripture on all of my answers to you. If you don't understand them, you can tell me, and I will assist your understanding as best I can. Thanks.

The scripture you used was irrelevant to the point. Hebrews 4 was distorted, so you need to go back and answer my questions and refutations on that (just don't say "you don't understand"). You also said the sabbath was a commandment and doctrine of men. Where is this? You have taken Colossians out of pure context too.

You can direct me to a book and chapter (the ones you used I've read a million times) but that does not mean what you INSERT into it is true. So now you need to go back and explain how the context of certain scriptures fit your interpretation (which you have not proven why they do) You haven't done a very good job in answering me..

I know you haven't read the scriptures that I designated one million times because the Word of God does not return void, and in your understanding of God's word as it pertains to salvation and the sabbath and the law and grace, you are still void in those areas. You might try reading each of those scriptures again until you can see the truth of the Word of God, and I guarantee you that it won't take a million times for God's Word to reveal the absolute truth.

Again, this one is special:

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:9-14

 

[SputnikBoy]

I would also extend an invitation to an old friend from Christianity.com who will soon, hopefully, be participating in this forum. Have you arrived yet?[/color]

:smt039, Sputnik!

Hi back adventageous :smt039 Great to see you here!

My account was finally activated. I'll respond later for I'm not in a favourable position to do so right now. But, interesting comments nevertheless.

That's right, do some browsing and feel your way around.

Also, I'd like to get acclimated to this new forum and posters (ie., who are the protagonists and antagonists :P ). I hate jumping heads first on my first day into such a hotly, debated topic, for it doesn't quite create a favourable impression on my behalf.

Yes, of course. I will say, however, that the majority of people on this forum - whether protagonist or antagonist - have an element of class about them. Apart from Vic, that is.
JUST KIDDING, VIC! :multi:

Seriously, adventageous, I'm sure you'll enjoy your time here with those on both sides of these controversial issues. The opposition can give us a good run for our money and this is what makes debates interesting. They are wrong, of course! :-D

You may also run into at least another old friend on this forum. I won't name him/her but you'll recognize the one I'm referring to as soon as you come across his/her posts. They (the posts) are unique in style and content. This is not meant as a derogatory remark ...on the contrary, this person knows how to debate issues! He/she is usually in error most of the time, however! ;-)

I would like to ask the thread starter one question: Do you honor any Sabbath? If so, on what day(s)? And why? This is only to give me a perspective of where you're coming from with your original post.

You will find wavy an interesting person, adventageous. He was the thread starter and I trust that he will answer your question shortly. Over to you wavy. Again, welcome to 123 adventageous!

 

[Imagican]

Boy, guess I will have to jump back in.

Wavy, the Hebrew laws as brought by Moses were just that. Laws. They required NO love for God by those that were commanded to follow them. They were a strict set of statutes that were often punishable by death to those that didn't follow them to the letter.

In other words, it didn't require a 'righteous' person to follow them out of 'love' for God and His wishes, all it took was adherence.

These people were commanded not to do ANY work on the Sabbath. Righteous or unrighteous. This is plainly offered in scripture of the OT. By the time of Christ, much had changed from that originally offered by Moses. Stoning had all but been abandoned. Sacrifice was rampant, for the people had resigned themselves to living for themselves instead of God and were more willing to offer sacrifices than loving God and following His will out of love.

So, when Christ makes the comment about one's sheep falling into a pit, what was acceptable to the religion at this time was not at the time of Moses. Just as any other example of the Hebrews self-will regardless of God's law, they were a 'stiff-necked' people and worked against God at every opportunity.

A point that often seems neglected when referring to Christ and the law is that the 'fulfillment' of the law was; Christ as the LAST sacrifice for sin. Up until the time of Christ, sin was DEATH. God had offered the death of animals and the 'giving up of ones wealth' as a 'band-aid' to cover individuals sins. Christ died for this sin and the punishment it entailed. THAT is the fulfillment of the law. COMPLETE in Christ, the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

These people were commanded not to even prepare food on the Sabbath. A man was stoned to death for gathering pieces of firewood. The laws that governed the Sabbath governed ALL work regardless of it's purpose. These people were even confined as to the distance that they could walk to temple on this day.

Funny, but all those that contend that we are to uphold the Sabbath law, tend to ignore all but the 'rest' part of it as they personally interpret it. These people still jump in their cars and 'drive' to church. They will still stop at 'Denny's' on the way home so 'someone else' can do the 'cooking' and service for them. Etc, etc. etc..........

Hebrew law commanded that even the slaves of the Hebrews were NOT to work on the Sabbath.

Christ taught us that EVERYDAY is a day to honor God and fulfill His commands of 1 LOVE GOD above ALL ELSE, 2 LOVE your NEIGHBOR as YOURSELF. It's really this simple. This eliminates the law that commanded rest. There is NO REST in righteousness NOW. We are to do GOOD EVERYDAY. The laws of those that accept Christ and LOVE GOD are now written in the hearts of THOSE that do this. You can no longer please God by simply following Mosaic laws. Impossible. LOVE is the key now and it's what He has tried to teach us since the beginning.

And let me try to clarify this one more time. We KNOW that the Hebrews resisted the Love that God offered. Therefore, what God offered in the Law was NOT freedom to follow God's will out of one's love for God, but fear to force the people to follow at least a part of His will. These were a hard-headed people, but God chose to preserve them in the only way possible. LAW. Food laws, behavior laws, laws of sacrifice, laws of purity, etc, etc, etc.........But even then they were told of a time in the future when it would not be this way.

 

[Vic C.]

Yes, of course. I will say, however, that the majority of people on this forum - whether protagonist or antagonist - have an element of class about them. Apart from Vic, that is.
JUST KIDDING, VIC!

:o

Bah! No soup for you; two weeks. :x

:

In other words, it didn't require a 'righteous' person to follow them out of 'love' for God and His wishes, all it took was adherence

Whether or not scripture implies that, it does say this;

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep my commandments.

 

[wavy]

Therefore Jesus came not to destroy the law but to complete, fill up abundantly lacking nothing, consumated, accomplished and brought to realization all that the law had to offer. Jesus kept the entire law, and was the only one able to keep the law, therefore, Jesus completed the law whereby it lacked nothing. There is absolutely nothing that Jew or Gentile could do to accomplish anything more obeying the law than was already accomplished by Jesus Christ. Today those that are born of God are not under the law which was completed by Jesus Christ, but we are under grace. Those that are born of God are baptized into Jesus Christ into His death, so that as we are buried with him, we are raised from the dead just as he was. We walk in the newness of life because Jesus fulfilled the law. The law did not have to be destroyed, because Jesus completed the law. Those that believe the Word of God and are born of God have been baptized into Jesus' death and resurrection by the Holy Spirit. Paul explains this message plainly in Romans.

You've done it again. Inserted your opinion into a scripture I have read a million times. I didn't ask you to tell me WHERE he said he was going to fulfill the Torah or what "pleroo" meant. I asked you to tell me HOW he did it, WITH SCRIPTURE. You quoted the scripture. Fine. You told me how he did it...not so good. Why? You didn't tell me HOW with SCRIPTURE. You just said stuff like this:

"There is absolutely nothing that Jew or Gentile could do to accomplish anything more obeying the law than was already accomplished by Jesus
Christ."

And so basically, as I expected, you are saying that he "fulfilled" it so we don't have to keep it. But that is NOT what that means. Please prove to me, WITH SCRIPTURE how that is what that means. Because he also mentioned the PROPHETS. So if he fulfilled Torah AND prophets, by YOUR OWN logic, there is nothing we could gain from reading or heeding the prophets either. Once again, you have failed in answering my question. Also, Romans is AGAINST your point. Being "under the law" does not mean "obey Torah". Being "under the law" is under the "law of sin" outlined Romans 7. And the "law of sin" is YOU being condenmed by the Torah because of your FLESH. Paul said we should NOT sin in that Romans 6 you posted because we are not "under the law". What is sin? Trangression of Torah (1 John 3:4). So you are left with a dilemma. Sorry, but you have basically repeated yourself and have again failed to thoroughly WITH SCRIPTURE answer my questions. Just quoting scripture does not prove your point.

You are in error because you are attempting to bypass Jesus' work on the cross, so that you yourself can accomplish through the law what Jesus completed in his life, and on the cross, and in his resurrection, and in his ascension.

Yet more false accusation.

To you the scriptures that I quoted were irrelevant because they did not match your interpretation. On one post you say that the sabbath is a day set aside for no work and rest, and in the next post you say that the sabbath is not related to the rest indicated in Hebrews 4, and then in the next post you speak of keeping the sabbath holy along with every day, and the next post................who knows what you will claim next.

And here you go again doing exactly as I predicted. Making more claims like "they did not match your interpretation". They had NOTHING TO DO WITH what I was asking. And you basically accused me of more lies here. What I said and KEEP saying is that the sabbath is a commandment for us to keep on the seventh day, of course. You got that part right. As far as Hebrews, I said Hebrews 4 was not a chapter about sabbath day keeping VERSUS the rest that is TO COME. And lastly, you keep saying this nonsense about "now we are supposed to be holy everyday". I am saying that OF COURSE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HOLY EVERYDAY. But that does not mean we do not rest on the sabbath because the sabbath was never the only day you are supposed to be holy. More false accusations and comparing apples and oranges on your part.

The Sabbath day commandment was given to the Israelites in Exodus, and not given before.

You don't know this. And also, the new covenant was given to ISRAELITES. Bad excuse, weak argument.

The seventh day is mentioned in the creation as God resting, just as it is mentioned in Hebrews 4 designating that believers should cease from their own works as God ceased from His work at creation. Simple.

Simple enough, but when does that mean we do not have to keep the sabbath? And the rest we are supposed get is yet FUTURE as I point out according to Hebrews 4:6, Hebrews 4:9, and Hebrews 4:11. You do not listen.

This is precisely the point. Your understanding of salvation is dependent upon your ability to keep commandments, and the truth of the matter is that your keeping any commandments will not gain you access into the Kingdom of God. The only way that you will see or enter the Kingdom of God is by being born of God. If you do not accomplish this process, then you will see an eternity apart from God no matter how many Sabbath's you keep.

Yet again more of your false accusations are represented here. My understanding of salvation is by grace through faith in Yahshua our Messiah. And after that is established, to OBEY him.

Your problem is that you think we do not have to obey Torah (which you have not proven). And what you don't understand is that if you don't obey, you WILL NOT be saved and will be exposed as a hypocrite and a person who does not know Messiah Yahshua. Please read Matthew 7:21-23.

Oh, I think that Nicodemus was very well grounded in the Torah, as was Paul as he was persecuting believers.

Irrelevant. And you, once again, ignored my point. He asked him how he could be a teacher and not know you have to be born again (John 3:10). That implies that he DID NOT KNOW TORAH ENOUGH. Being "born again" is not a new concept introduced by Yahshua. Please read Deuteronomy 10:16 for one reference.

The future sabbath rest that you are so assured of is not future at all, thus your error and flawed understanding.

That's great that you know how to repeat my words ("error" and "flawed") but it is to bad you do not explain why with scripture.

The rest that is equated to God's rest during creation is attributed to the rest in Jesus Christ through faith. The rest that is spoken of is not the one day per week sabbath. No it is the spiritual rest given those born of God in Jesus Christ, the rest depicted by the rest for the Israelites in the wilderness that they failed to obtain because of unbelief. Your understanding of the sabbath is flawed, and your determination of it being a sign as one being a child of God is flawed, for some of those that kept the seventh day in the wilderness, did not enter into God's rest because of unbelief.

You did not answer one of my questions or refutations othe than with these opinions. Please use scripture.

You keep the Torah if you want to, but remember to keep the entire Torah. Where does God tell you in the Word that you can just keep a portion of the Torah? Where does God tell you in the Word that you do not have to abide by the entire levitical law?

All 613 commandments don't apply to one person, I hope you know. And I hope you know there is provision in the Torah, prophets, and in the Psalms that establish Messiah as our High Priest. I do not have to abide by Levitical law because they became corrupt. And if the priest become corrupt, their priesthood is taken from them (Leviticus 21:17-24, Leviticus 22:2-9; Zechariah 3:1-10).

And it is nice that you can form your own opinions and make comments like above, but you have to use SCRIPTURE to prove or disprove a point in a SCRIPTURAL debate. You fail yet again at answering or explaining. Just more of your false accusations and more comments like above..

I have shown you, where I am not under the law, but under grace. I rest in Jesus Christ's work just as he taught.

Yet again you take the Matthew out of context. And I am not "under law" either. Sadly, you do not know what this means.

No where did I say that those who keep the sabbath are not holy. I said that if you are going to keep one day holy, you are in error, for everyday should be kept holy unto God for God now lives inside everyone that is born of God.

You keep saying this. How is a day kept holy? There is only one day that can be kept holy (the day being set-apart, not the people) and those are the days that Yahweh has APPOINTED. The sabbath is an appointed time we rest on, and that is how it is kept sanctified. As far as PEOPLE being holy, we are to be holy by obedience everday. Once again, you compare apples with oranges.

Hebrews 4 says that as God rested on the seventh day, we who believe should rest by ceasing from our own works. Every day should be a holy day of worshipping God.

That rest is yet future, as I proved by listing various Hebrews 4 scriptures. So we work now till we get there. Everyday, however, is not a set-apart day. Everyday WE are supposed to be set-apart, but absolutely NOTHING in Hebrews 4 says everyday is a set-apart day. You are SUPERIMPOSING that into the context. Where does is say that? And you failed to answer my question (no surprise) about verse 8. You also failed to explain how the sabbath should not be kept according to Hebrews 4 or how Hebrews 4 is sabbath vs. spiritual rest. And, for that matter, you have failed to explain with Hebrews 4 how it says anything about "Jesus" being our rest as opposed to the sabbath. He is our rest, but his rest has nothing to do with it being versus the sabbath day. You keep SAYING IT, but have not PROVEN IT. You take me to a scripture and put your FEELINGS into to it. You don't show how the scripture states it.

Where do you get off thinking that only one day is a day of resting from your own works so that you can worship God.

Comparing apples and oranges again. We are to do Yahweh's works everday. But only one day is the sabbath of rest from labor (earthly labor/job/occupation) and an appointed time for believers to gather (along with the feasts). You are putting things where they do not apply. The problem is, you don't see it and keep repeating the same thing...

Your dilemma is that you do not understand worship or rest, and you don't know who fulfilled the law so you did not have to.

So you finally stated, after about ten times of my asking, what Messiah's "fulfill the law" statement was about (although I knew the whole time what you were going to say). However, you have not proven this with scripture. So please, take this and prove it with scripture, as I have asked several times. We all have our opinions, but if it is not backed by scripture, please do not tell me what I do not understand.

You keep changing apples to oranges and then back to apples, but the bottom line is that the Keeping of the Sabbath was given to the Israelites as the Law of Moses, and Jesus completed the law so abundantly that you and I and all believers did not have to.

I'm looking for your supporting scripture, give me a minute...





















I didn't find it.

Yahshua is rest, but not rest as opposed to the sabbath day. You have NOT proven that with scripture. And again, what does it mean for him to have "fulfilled the law"? Explain with SCRIPTURE please, please, PLEASE.

I have, over and over.

In your head you have.

The Israelites went to the synagog on the Sabbath and God dwelt in the Holy of Holies at the Temple, but now that God dwells right inside of all who are born of God, they should worship God every day by their ceasing from their own works, and every day should be kept holy. One of these days if I keep repeating over and over again, God can use this truth to make a dent in your stubborness and lack of understanding what he is saying to you in the Word of God.

Why are you making things up? Sabbath in a synagogue came only after return from Babylonian captivity. Tell me where, in Torah, does it say anything about where Israelites are supposed to be in the temple on the sabbath to watch Yahweh come down. You won't be able to find it. Your opinions are nice. But scripture doesn't support made up doctrine, I hope you know.

Not comparing apples and oranges. Taking your definition of sabbath up keep and explaining that Hebrews 4 makes it plain that we are to cease from our own works and be about the works of God, and not go to the chuch on saturday passing through some litergy here and there because we decided on our own that because God did not work on the seventh day, then we should not work either. Hebrews 4 does not explain God's rest as the Sabbath keepers do. No wonder you want to look at Hebrews 4 in a different light.

Hebrews 4, and this is the last time I will say this, talks about a future rest. Please show me why verses 4, 9, and 11 aren't future. And please tell me why we do not have to keep the sabbath because of something future. Show me the conflict. And please tell me why the scripture said Yahweh commanded the sabbath because he rested on the seventh day, and not the we "decided" to rest on the seventh because he did. You are lying. And again, let me look for scripture that said the sabbath was a decision...
















I didn't find any.

And your other error is assuming we think true spiritual fulfillment is keeping the sabbath and that Yahshua is not rest. We keep the sabbath as it is given to us because it was commanded. But Yahshua as "rest" has to do with the YOKE of MEN, not "rest" as in sabbath rest. The sabbath is a day, not a person. Please tell me in scripture where Messiah says that he is the sabbath, or that even if he is, that means we do not have to keep the literal day (you won't find it, trust me). Keeping the sabbath is not "our own works" as you seem to be asserting. The sabbath belongs to Yahweh and it his HIS work if we obey it to keep it as he commanded.

Jesus kept the sabbath day because he was Jewish and under the law. I am not under the law, and if you are born of God, you are not under the law either. If you keep the law then you better keep the whole law or you are wasting your time.

So he was not "born of God"? Don't you realize how stupid this sounded?

#1. "Jesus" was under the law.

#2. Those born of God are not under the law.

#3. "Jesus" must not have been born of God.

As far as your "whole law" excuse, we keep it as a lifestyle. We are not required to go without sinning or be damned. We are required to do it in faithful obedience, however, and love (John 14:15, 1 John 5:1-3). Torah keeping is a lifestyle, done in love and obedience to Yahweh. It is not a means of salvation. If, however, you are referring to your Levitical priesthood excuse, that has already been exposed as error.

Galatians is against your point, btw. If we do not continue (as a lifestyle in perseverance) in all the things written in Torah, we are cursed. You reject it. You must therefore be cursed.

The Word of God tells us that the eating of food, drinking of drinks, holy days, new moons, sabbath days are a shadow of things to come.

They are. And this is a good thing, because we are not in the "to come" yet. So we show forth was is to come to the world by the feasts, shabbats, new moons, etc.

It is nice that you can use a lot of space posting scripture, but if you want true understanding of Colossians 2, read my thread on it and refute that. As also my thread on how Messiah fulfilled the scriptures. I've read Colossians. I do not need you to quote it to me. I know what it is saying. You have problems understanding that quoting a scripture does not mean you are right (especially when the scripture is irrelevant to the point). You must take that scripture and use what it says and tell us why, directly, it backs up your point in light of other scripture. You cannot just quote it and merely expect and hope it to agree with you.

You do not keep the Torah either. You keep what is convienent for you to keep.

Wrong. We learn and we grow in the grace of Messiah and obedience to his Torah. If we stumble, we ask for forgivness and repent and pick it back up. Don't tell me how I keep Torah. Now you are getting ridiculous (as if that did not start a long time ago, lol). More false accusations.

The Sabbath day is kept holy by your own opinion, and you cease from vocational work, but continue in your own works apart from God's will.

So I guess Yahweh lied when he told us to keep it holy. And who said I continue in my own works apart from his will? Torah is his will (if you have brotherly love and trust in Yahweh). Do you have a hidden camera in my room or that follows me around that shows you how I conduct myself?

Jesus completed the law, and as we abide in him, we are about God's work, not our own.

This was my point. You don't know me. How is keeping the sabbath doing my own work (although Yahweh commanded it)? Or how because I keep the sabbath am I forgetting about Yahweh every other day? More error and false accusations and false dichotomies on your part. And your "complete" the law excuse is flawed because you have not proven it.

But in case you refuse to read my thread on this, I am going to ask you a question: Do we have to be righteous or heed the Word of Yahweh?

Because Messiah fulfilled (pleroo) all righteousness in Matthew 3:15. Paul fulfilled (pleroo) the Word of Yahweh according to Colossians 1:25. What is your answer?

It is not some let's copy the Israelites way of life according to the Old Testament that Jesus was our example to follow. Why would he have us follow the law when we are now under grace; and why would he have had to die on the cross if man was able to keep the law?

This is not copying the Israelites. This is obeying Yahweh and becoming part of his elect (Israel). And your comment about following Torah vs. grace is flawed because being "under law" has nothing to do with obeying it. Being under law has to do with sin having dominion over us. Having grace from Yahweh is that sin forgiven us because of Messiah. However, we do not sin (break Torah; 1 John 3:4) because of grace (Romans 6:1-2, Romans 6:15).

As for the reason he died, it was to reunite Israel and Judah (Jerermiah 31:31-34) remarry one bride of Israel (Hosea 2; Romans 7:1-4) redeem all from Torah-less-ness (Titus 2:14), and allow Ephraim to be graffed back into the fold along with all nations who believe on the name of Yahshua (Ezekiel 37:16-28). He also died so the Spirit could be given. The Spirit is given because of our flesh, which breaks Torah. Now that we have the Spirit and the righteousness and atonement of Messiah that saves, we can become Yahweh workmanship (Ephesians 2:10) and walk in his Torah without being cursed if we stay faithful (Ezekiel 36:27).

Your ole corrupt, mortal flesh combats your ability to walk in the Spirit 100% of the time day in and day out, and your finite mind is not able to remember or know the sins that you commit by trying to keep the Torah.

This is irrelevant to any point. "Trying" is not the issue. You are preaching the "you will fail, don't try" doctrine. We do sin and stumble at Torah, but we have hope because of Messiah. Sin does not mean "don't keep Torah". Sin means you just need atonement and the good heart to do it willingly and joyfully to obey Yahweh. That's how David felt (Psalm 1 & Psalm 119).

Plenty of scripture was given. Hebrews 3 and 4 is sufficient to gain a complete understanding of the rest and the ceasing of our works as we abide in Christ Jesus.

***sigh***

I know you haven't read the scriptures that I designated one million times because the Word of God does not return void, and in your understanding of God's word as it pertains to salvation and the sabbath and the law and grace, you are still void in those areas. You might try reading each of those scriptures again until you can see the truth of the Word of God, and I guarantee you that it won't take a million times for God's Word to reveal the absolute truth.

And here you are again. You are not elaborating. I can make a perfect example of your "teaching" method.

You: "We do not have to keep the 'law', see because 'Jesus' fulfilled it".

Me: "Well, how did he fulfill it?"

You (after I have asked many times): "He fulfilled it so we don't have to keep it. See, this scripture says he fulfilled it".

Me: "I know the scripture says he fulfilled it. HOW did he fulfill it? And where is the scripture to back up how he did it? You are not giving me scripture that shows where it is indicated that we do not have to keep Torah because he 'fulfilled' it".

You: "You have to be born of God. What is so hard for you to understand? We are under grace, not the 'law'".

All the while, never answering my question. Another example of what you did with Hebrews 4 (in essence):

You: "We do not have to keep the sabbath because 'Jesus' is our rest. We have spiritual rest in 'Jesus'. We cease from our own works and do God's everyday. See, it says it here in Hebrews 4."

Me: "Tell me how Hebrews 4 says we do not have to keep the sabbath. A conflict is not being made between sabbath day keeping and any spiriutal rest in 'Jesus'. That is not what Hebrews says. Hebrews says the rest is yet future. Read Hebrews 4:6, Hebrews 4:9, and Hebrews 4:11."

You: "The sabbath rest is not future."

Me: "You say that, but explain to me why not. Read those verses. Tell me what the rest as opposed to the coming rest is in Hebrews 4:8"

You: "I have explained it. You must be born of God. You are a sabbath keeper that is trying to keep one day holy when everyday is holy because of rest in 'Jesus' You don't understand. You are trying to be saved by keeping the 'law'".

Me: "No you haven't explained anything. You just say that's what it says. And of course we are supposed to be holy everyday. It was always supposed to be this way. The sabbath is not against being holy everyday. You are comparing apples and oranges".

You: "You do not understand the scriptures with your fleshy mind. The sabbath is not the true rest. True rest is 'Jesus', not the commandments of men".

Me: "The sabbath is not a commandment of men. We keep the sabbath because Yahweh commanded it. You still fail to show how Hebrews 4 says this. Yahshua is a rest, but NOT opposed to the sabbath. His rest has nothing to do with sabbath day keeping. His rest was in the context of rest from the world and from the traditions of men. He showed this in Matthew 12 where he rebuked the Pharisees for forbidding good on the sabbath. Yahshua was clearly alluding to Jeremiah 6:16, for the simple fact that there cannot be two 'rests' for our souls. You are in error and your interpretation is flawed. You have not explained how Hebrews 4 or Matthew 11 does away with the sabbath."

You: "You do not understand the scriptures. I clearly showed you from Hebrews 4. The rest is not future. The rest is right now in 'Jesus' as we rest from our own works and do God's work everyday and worship him everday."

Me: "That is now what Hebrews says. Prove that with scripture. Hebrews talks about a FUTURE rest according to the verses I showed you. Hebrews is not conflicting the sabbath day with a spiritual rest. It uses the sabbath as an example of how we are to work until we get to that rest. Read those verses. You are not backing your point up with scripture. You are just saying the scripture supports you. Answer my questions."

You: "You must be born of God. You do not understand. How do you not see it? Everyday is rest and kept holy. We cease from our own works and do God's everyday. Hebrews 4 says it. "

Me: "Hebrews 4 does not say that..."

You see?

Again, this one is special:

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:9-14

It is. But it does not prove your point. What is this scripture saying and how does it apply with what you want to believe?

Anyway, I'm done. Fruitless to argue with some one that doesn't even use scripture to back points.

 

[wavy]

Imagican, please read:


Your quote:
Wavy, the Hebrew laws as brought by Moses were just that. Laws. They required NO love for God by those that were commanded to follow them. They were a strict set of statutes that were often punishable by death to those that didn't follow them to the letter.

Before I get into all the other stuff you said, this must be addressed. I will first point out that you used no scripture. Secondly, here is why you are wrong. From the Torah:

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am YHWH.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH is our God; YHWH is echad/one
Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love YHWH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deuteronomy 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

We know Torah is written on our heart when we do the things written in them.

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that YHWH thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love YWHW thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth YHWH thy God require of thee, but to fear YHWH thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve YHWH thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deuteronomy 10:13 To keep the commandments of YHWH, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psalm 1:2 But his delight is in Torah of YHWH; and in his Torah doth he meditate day and night.

Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the Torah of YHWH.

Psalm 119:44 So shall I keep thy Torah continually for ever and ever.
Psalm 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Those who teach the Torah is bondage need to read this verse above. True liberty comes from obeying Torah with a committed, loving heart. Not to boast. Not for justification without Messiah. Not because Jews are compelling you to.

Psalm 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy Torah graciously.

^Torah and grace do not conflict.

Isaiah 8:20 To the Torah and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

True light is shown in a person when they obey Torah, believing in the living Light, who is Yahshua. If they do not show it outwardly, they are not of Yahweh and are liars (1 John 2:4).

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the Torah of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of YHWH:
Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The true YHWH tells us to remember Torah.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

A person who really has the Spirit is not one that plays the "spirit vs. law" or "law vs. grace" game. A true person in the Spirit is delighted in his heart to obey Yahweh's commandments.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the Torah is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

True believers in Messiah take instruction and the "do's and don't" as opposed to the lawless believers who believe obeying Yahweh is bondage and secretly the commandments and doctrines of men.

Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the Torah, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Those who don't hear Torah don't get their prayers answered, even if by coincidence they think they do. It rains on the just as well as the unjust.

Psalm 119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy Torah.

It is saddening to see those who claim to be saved, yet do not want to walk the walk. David, a man after Yahweh's own heart (aside from Messiah, could it really get any better than that?) said this by the inspiration of the Spirit.

Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy Torah is the truth.

As opposed to a "bondage", ol' "Jewish" document, good for nothing except historical value.

Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the Torah shall go forth of Zion, and the word of YHWH from Yahrushalem.

Even in the age to come Torah will still be medicine and healing for this pagan, lawless world.

Should I continue as I keep remembering where these scriptures are at (which is the reason they may not be in order, the're coming to me as I remember them), or should I move on to the New Testament?

Or do you need time to think? I could go on for a long time, you know, lol.

 

[Jay T]

wavy,

I'm just interested in hearing more, so...

BUMP!

In Christ,

farley

satan has a special hatred for SDA's & 7th Day Baptists.....
Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make [war] with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

 

[Jay T]

Exo 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep my commandments.

Interesting that you brought this up.....as Christ merely repeated his words from here.....to John 14:15....."IF..you love me, keep my commandments"