Why I believe SDA's (& other sabbatarians) Are In Error

[wavy]

That's interesting, Jay.

I never made that connection. But tell me what you think about the presentation?

 

[Jay T]

That's interesting, Jay.

I never made that connection. But tell me what you think about the presentation?

Your original post ?
A bit indepth for some I suppose.
For others..... they needed knowledge.

The bottom line is, that God is using all different people, using different viewpoints to call the Christian world back, to keeping the Lord's Day...the 7th day Sabbath.

 

[Solo]

Therefore Jesus came not to destroy the law but to complete, fill up abundantly lacking nothing, consumated, accomplished and brought to realization all that the law had to offer. Jesus kept the entire law, and was the only one able to keep the law, therefore, Jesus completed the law whereby it lacked nothing. There is absolutely nothing that Jew or Gentile could do to accomplish anything more obeying the law than was already accomplished by Jesus Christ. Today those that are born of God are not under the law which was completed by Jesus Christ, but we are under grace. Those that are born of God are baptized into Jesus Christ into His death, so that as we are buried with him, we are raised from the dead just as he was. We walk in the newness of life because Jesus fulfilled the law. The law did not have to be destroyed, because Jesus completed the law. Those that believe the Word of God and are born of God have been baptized into Jesus' death and resurrection by the Holy Spirit. Paul explains this message plainly in Romans.

You've done it again. Inserted your opinion into a scripture I have read a million times. I didn't ask you to tell me WHERE he said he was going to fulfill the Torah or what "pleroo" meant. I asked you to tell me HOW he did it, WITH SCRIPTURE. You quoted the scripture. Fine. You told me how he did it...not so good. Why? You didn't tell me HOW with SCRIPTURE. You just said stuff like this:

I quoted scripture and explained the meaning of the words fulfil and fulfilled in the Greek language and you continue to impress the folks of this forum with your inability to address the scripture submitted. Jesus fulfilled the Law. Study the scripture surrounding it without your blinders on.

There is absolutely nothing that Jew or Gentile could do to accomplish anything more obeying the law than was already accomplished by Jesus
Christ.

And so basically, as I expected, you are saying that he "fulfilled" it so we don't have to keep it. But that is NOT what that means. Please prove to me, WITH SCRIPTURE how that is what that means. Because he also mentioned the PROPHETS. So if he fulfilled Torah AND prophets, by YOUR OWN logic, there is nothing we could gain from reading or heeding the prophets either. Once again, you have failed in answering my question. Also, Romans is AGAINST your point. Being "under the law" does not mean "obey Torah". Being "under the law" is under the "law of sin" outlined Romans 7. And the "law of sin" is YOU being condenmed by the Torah because of your FLESH. Paul said we should NOT sin in that Romans 6 you posted because we are not "under the law". What is sin? Trangression of Torah (1 John 3:4). So you are left with a dilemma. Sorry, but you have basically repeated yourself and have again failed to thoroughly WITH SCRIPTURE answer my questions. Just quoting scripture does not prove your point.

You are blind to the scripture. Your intent is to be an Israelite that follows the Torah. Trying to explain to you the truth of God is like asking someone that smokes to quit smoking. They are not going to quit until they determine to quit, and you are not going to get out of your false doctrines until you determine to. I have given you plenty of scripture and explanation as directed by God last night, and you are unable to even speak of the scriptures relaying what they say. That is a tactic of the enemy and I have faced him many times in my correspondance with false teachers and demonically controlled individuals over the years.

You are in error because you are attempting to bypass Jesus' work on the cross, so that you yourself can accomplish through the law what Jesus completed in his life, and on the cross, and in his resurrection, and in his ascension.

Yet more false accusation.

Truth loud and clear. You can live like you think that God would have you live while Jesus has done all that for you. You have yet to keep the Torah in your life, and if you say that you have, you are a liar.

To you the scriptures that I quoted were irrelevant because they did not match your interpretation. On one post you say that the sabbath is a day set aside for no work and rest, and in the next post you say that the sabbath is not related to the rest indicated in Hebrews 4, and then in the next post you speak of keeping the sabbath holy along with every day, and the next post................who knows what you will claim next.

And here you go again doing exactly as I predicted. Making more claims like "they did not match your interpretation". They had NOTHING TO DO WITH what I was asking. And you basically accused me of more lies here. What I said and KEEP saying is that the sabbath is a commandment for us to keep on the seventh day, of course. You got that part right. As far as Hebrews, I said Hebrews 4 was not a chapter about sabbath day keeping VERSUS the rest that is TO COME. And lastly, you keep saying this nonsense about "now we are supposed to be holy everyday". I am saying that OF COURSE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HOLY EVERYDAY. But that does not mean we do not rest on the sabbath because the sabbath was never the only day you are supposed to be holy. More false accusations and comparing apples and oranges on your part.

You have yet to come clean on what the sabbath is for. You continually attack my posts saying that the sabbath is not for rest, but it isn't for rest as Hebrews 4 speaks of. You say that every day is to be kept holy, but if you don't keep the sabbath day holy you are in error.
Your understanding of the sabbath is as if you are an Israelite wandering around in the wilderness. There were multiple Israelites that kept the sabbath, that never entered into the rest of Jesus Christ because of their unbelief. Your unbelief in Jesus has been superceded by your belief in the Torah just as these in the wilderness.

The Sabbath day commandment was given to the Israelites in Exodus, and not given before.

You don't know this. And also, the new covenant was given to ISRAELITES. Bad excuse, weak argument.

Truth. Read the Bible. The new covenant was given to all nations, and Israel was blinded to the truth.

The seventh day is mentioned in the creation as God resting, just as it is mentioned in Hebrews 4 designating that believers should cease from their own works as God ceased from His work at creation. Simple.

Simple enough, but when does that mean we do not have to keep the sabbath? And the rest we are supposed get is yet FUTURE as I point out according to Hebrews 4:6, Hebrews 4:9, and Hebrews 4:11. You do not listen.

We are to keep every day holy and we are to rest from our works and be about the business of God. When we do these things we are keeping the sabbath holy as well as resting from our works. Why would you want to keep the sabbath differently than Jesus did? Why would you want to follow man's ordinances that the Pharisees were continually rebuked for.

This is precisely the point. Your understanding of salvation is dependent upon your ability to keep commandments, and the truth of the matter is that your keeping any commandments will not gain you access into the Kingdom of God. The only way that you will see or enter the Kingdom of God is by being born of God. If you do not accomplish this process, then you will see an eternity apart from God no matter how many Sabbath's you keep.

Yet again more of your false accusations are represented here. My understanding of salvation is by grace through faith in Yahshua our Messiah. And after that is established, to OBEY him.

Then obey him by living in the New Covenant, and not the Old covenant that was meant for the Israelites. Keeping one foot in one covenant and the other foot in the other is not going to fool God one bit. He knows you inside and out.

Your problem is that you think we do not have to obey Torah (which you have not proven). And what you don't understand is that if you don't obey, you WILL NOT be saved and will be exposed as a hypocrite and a person who does not know Messiah Yahshua. Please read Matthew 7:21-23.

Your lack of understanding the born of God process has limited your understanding of who you are in Jesus Christ, and how the mortal, corrupt flesh combats the Spiritual inward man. The law was for the Israelites and they proved that the Law was unable to be kept. If you need to keep the Torah to be saved, then you better keep the entire Torah without breaking one single ordinance. Why do you not offer sacrifices as the Torah demands?

Oh, I think that Nicodemus was very well grounded in the Torah, as was Paul as he was persecuting believers.

Irrelevant. And you, once again, ignored my point. He asked him how he could be a teacher and not know you have to be born again (John 3:10). That implies that he DID NOT KNOW TORAH ENOUGH. Being "born again" is not a new concept introduced by Yahshua. Please read Deuteronomy 10:16 for one reference.

That is the same question that I was inferring that you do not understand. You being rapped up in the Torah are unaware of the born again process and what it means. You and Nicodemus are similar in your understanding of the truth of God, and I can assure you that Nicodemus understood the Torah better than you.

The future sabbath rest that you are so assured of is not future at all, thus your error and flawed understanding.

That's great that you know how to repeat my words ("error" and "flawed") but it is to bad you do not explain why with scripture.

I have explained all of my points with scripture which is something that you continue to fail at.

The rest that is equated to God's rest during creation is attributed to the rest in Jesus Christ through faith. The rest that is spoken of is not the one day per week sabbath. No it is the spiritual rest given those born of God in Jesus Christ, the rest depicted by the rest for the Israelites in the wilderness that they failed to obtain because of unbelief. Your understanding of the sabbath is flawed, and your determination of it being a sign as one being a child of God is flawed, for some of those that kept the seventh day in the wilderness, did not enter into God's rest because of unbelief.

You did not answer one of my questions or refutations othe than with these opinions. Please use scripture.

Yes I have. You have just failed to accept them as truth because they go against the flawed position that you hold onto.

You keep the Torah if you want to, but remember to keep the entire Torah. Where does God tell you in the Word that you can just keep a portion of the Torah? Where does God tell you in the Word that you do not have to abide by the entire levitical law?

All 613 commandments don't apply to one person, I hope you know. And I hope you know there is provision in the Torah, prophets, and in the Psalms that establish Messiah as our High Priest. I do not have to abide by Levitical law because they became corrupt. And if the priest become corrupt, their priesthood is taken from them (Leviticus 21:17-24, Leviticus 22:2-9; Zechariah 3:1-10).

And it is nice that you can form your own opinions and make comments like above, but you have to use SCRIPTURE to prove or disprove a point in a SCRIPTURAL debate. You fail yet again at answering or explaining. Just more of your false accusations and more comments like above..

Your position and beliefs are incongruant with the scripture, and as I have already shown, you fail to accept scripture when it goes against your personal doctrines. You continue to fail at explaining the verses that go against your doctrines as you pick and choose what portions of Torah that you want to follow.

I have shown you, where I am not under the law, but under grace. I rest in Jesus Christ's work just as he taught.

Yet again you take the Matthew out of context. And I am not "under law" either. Sadly, you do not know what this means.

You take the entire old testament out of context. You consistantly show you inability to understand the Word of God. The first indicator is that the Holy Spirit is not in residence, but if he is, then you have quenched his guidence.

No where did I say that those who keep the sabbath are not holy. I said that if you are going to keep one day holy, you are in error, for everyday should be kept holy unto God for God now lives inside everyone that is born of God.

You keep saying this. How is a day kept holy? There is only one day that can be kept holy (the day being set-apart, not the people) and those are the days that Yahweh has APPOINTED. The sabbath is an appointed time we rest on, and that is how it is kept sanctified. As far as PEOPLE being holy, we are to be holy by obedience everday. Once again, you compare apples with oranges.

That is you earthly, rudimentary understanding of the sabbath and its purpose. You have failed to also understand the Old Covenant Law.

Hebrews 4 says that as God rested on the seventh day, we who believe should rest by ceasing from our own works. Every day should be a holy day of worshipping God.

That rest is yet future, as I proved by listing various Hebrews 4 scriptures. So we work now till we get there. Everyday, however, is not a set-apart day. Everyday WE are supposed to be set-apart, but absolutely NOTHING in Hebrews 4 says everyday is a set-apart day. You are SUPERIMPOSING that into the context. Where does is say that? And you failed to answer my question (no surprise) about verse 8. You also failed to explain how the sabbath should not be kept according to Hebrews 4 or how Hebrews 4 is sabbath vs. spiritual rest. And, for that matter, you have failed to explain with Hebrews 4 how it says anything about "Jesus" being our rest as opposed to the sabbath. He is our rest, but his rest has nothing to do with it being versus the sabbath day. You keep SAYING IT, but have not PROVEN IT. You take me to a scripture and put your FEELINGS into to it. You don't show how the scripture states it.

You have such a sad understanding of work. God's work is to be done as Jesus was our example. Your works are wood, hay, and stubble.

Where do you get off thinking that only one day is a day of resting from your own works so that you can worship God.

Comparing apples and oranges again. We are to do Yahweh's works everday. But only one day is the sabbath of rest from labor (earthly labor/job/occupation) and an appointed time for believers to gather (along with the feasts). You are putting things where they do not apply. The problem is, you don't see it and keep repeating the same thing...

Now you have finally admitted that the sabbath day is the day that you cease from performing vocational work, and be about whatever your definition is of work depending on your own tradition. This form of sabbath keeping has absolutly nothing to do with the New covenant of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 4 explains the work that you should rest from.

Your dilemma is that you do not understand worship or rest, and you don't know who fulfilled the law so you did not have to.

So you finally stated, after about ten times of my asking, what Messiah's "fulfill the law" statement was about (although I knew the whole time what you were going to say). However, you have not proven this with scripture. So please, take this and prove it with scripture, as I have asked several times. We all have our opinions, but if it is not backed by scripture, please do not tell me what I do not understand.

I have proved it. You just deny the definition of the words in scripture so that you can continue in your own false doctrine.

You keep changing apples to oranges and then back to apples, but the bottom line is that the Keeping of the Sabbath was given to the Israelites as the Law of Moses, and Jesus completed the law so abundantly that you and I and all believers did not have to.

I'm looking for your supporting scripture, give me a minute...





















I didn't find it.

That my friend is not the first time that I have noticed that you couldn't find applicable scripture to back your claims.

Yahshua is rest, but not rest as opposed to the sabbath day. You have NOT proven that with scripture. And again, what does it mean for him to have "fulfilled the law"? Explain with SCRIPTURE please, please, PLEASE.

I have, over and over.

In your head you have.

Your head is closed to the truth so you were not able to see.

The Israelites went to the synagog on the Sabbath and God dwelt in the Holy of Holies at the Temple, but now that God dwells right inside of all who are born of God, they should worship God every day by their ceasing from their own works, and every day should be kept holy. One of these days if I keep repeating over and over again, God can use this truth to make a dent in your stubborness and lack of understanding what he is saying to you in the Word of God.

Why are you making things up? Sabbath in a synagogue came only after return from Babylonian captivity. Tell me where, in Torah, does it say anything about where Israelites are supposed to be in the temple on the sabbath to watch Yahweh come down. You won't be able to find it. Your opinions are nice. But scripture doesn't support made up doctrine, I hope you know.

Again your reading comprehension has made a completely false representation of my quote. The scriptures teach the Torah and all of the practices that the Israelites are to perform. You do not follow the Torah completely, and you do not understand the synagog or temple, so I laugh at your inadequacies.

Not comparing apples and oranges. Taking your definition of sabbath up keep and explaining that Hebrews 4 makes it plain that we are to cease from our own works and be about the works of God, and not go to the chuch on saturday passing through some litergy here and there because we decided on our own that because God did not work on the seventh day, then we should not work either. Hebrews 4 does not explain God's rest as the Sabbath keepers do. No wonder you want to look at Hebrews 4 in a different light.

Hebrews 4, and this is the last time I will say this, talks about a future rest. Please show me why verses 4, 9, and 11 aren't future. And please tell me why we do not have to keep the sabbath because of something future. Show me the conflict. And please tell me why the scripture said Yahweh commanded the sabbath because he rested on the seventh day, and not the we "decided" to rest on the seventh because he did. You are lying. And again, let me look for scripture that said the sabbath was a decision...

















I didn't find any.

And your other error is assuming we think true spiritual fulfillment is keeping the sabbath and that Yahshua is not rest. We keep the sabbath as it is given to us because it was commanded. But Yahshua as "rest" has to do with the YOKE of MEN, not "rest" as in sabbath rest. The sabbath is a day, not a person. Please tell me in scripture where Messiah says that he is the sabbath, or that even if he is, that means we do not have to keep the literal day (you won't find it, trust me). Keeping the sabbath is not "our own works" as you seem to be asserting. The sabbath belongs to Yahweh and it his HIS work if we obey it to keep it as he commanded.

You misinterpret Hebrews 4. That's is too bad. You will wallow in your false doctrine until you allow the Holy Spirit to teach you His truth. I noticed that you just had a problem finding scripture necessary for your wild ideas about truth.

Jesus kept the sabbath day because he was Jewish and under the law. I am not under the law, and if you are born of God, you are not under the law either. If you keep the law then you better keep the whole law or you are wasting your time.

So he was not "born of God"? Don't you realize how stupid this sounded?

Your lack of understanding does not constitute stupidity on someone else's behalf.

#1. "Jesus" was under the law.

#2. Those born of God are not under the law.

#3. "Jesus" must not have been born of God.

As far as your "whole law" excuse, we keep it as a lifestyle. We are not required to go without sinning or be damned. We are required to do it in faithful obedience, however, and love (John 14:15, 1 John 5:1-3). Torah keeping is a lifestyle, done in love and obedience to Yahweh. It is not a means of salvation. If, however, you are referring to your Levitical priesthood excuse, that has already been exposed as error.

Then it all is a game to promote a doctrine apart from the Word of God. Amazing.

Galatians is against your point, btw. If we do not continue (as a lifestyle in perseverance) in all the things written in Torah, we are cursed. You reject it. You must therefore be cursed.[/color]

I noticed that you never post scripture, you just post your interpretation that follows your false doctrine. The Galatians scripture proves your walk is in error, and your doctrine is false. You are a Judaizer and a false teacher.

The Word of God tells us that the eating of food, drinking of drinks, holy days, new moons, sabbath days are a shadow of things to come.

They are. And this is a good thing, because we are not in the "to come" yet. So we show forth was is to come to the world by the feasts, shabbats, new moons, etc.

It is nice that you can use a lot of space posting scripture, but if you want true understanding of Colossians 2, read my thread on it and refute that. As also my thread on how Messiah fulfilled the scriptures. I've read Colossians. I do not need you to quote it to me. I know what it is saying. You have problems understanding that quoting a scripture does not mean you are right (especially when the scripture is irrelevant to the point). You must take that scripture and use what it says and tell us why, directly, it backs up your point in light of other scripture. You cannot just quote it and merely expect and hope it to agree with you.

Your definition is as skewed as the rest of your doctrine. I know that you hate to post scripture and I know why. It refutes you ridiculous stance on the Word of God.

You do not keep the Torah either. You keep what is convienent for you to keep.

Wrong. We learn and we grow in the grace of Messiah and obedience to his Torah. If we stumble, we ask for forgivness and repent and pick it back up. Don't tell me how I keep Torah. Now you are getting ridiculous (as if that did not start a long time ago, lol). More false accusations.

No man is able to keep the Torah. You are not Jesus. The claim that you do not keep the Torah is a simple truth when one knows the carnal flesh and the doctrine that one keeps.

The Sabbath day is kept holy by your own opinion, and you cease from vocational work, but continue in your own works apart from God's will.

So I guess Yahweh lied when he told us to keep it holy. And who said I continue in my own works apart from his will? Torah is his will (if you have brotherly love and trust in Yahweh). Do you have a hidden camera in my room or that follows me around that shows you how I conduct myself?

The Holy Spirit explains perfectly what the rest of God is, and you are way off base.

Jesus completed the law, and as we abide in him, we are about God's work, not our own.

This was my point. You don't know me. How is keeping the sabbath doing my own work (although Yahweh commanded it)? Or how because I keep the sabbath am I forgetting about Yahweh every other day? More error and false accusations and false dichotomies on your part. And your "complete" the law excuse is flawed because you have not proven it.

I know how you keep the sabbath by your posts, and I know your lacking understanding by your posts, and I know your inability of keeping the Torah by your nature, and I know when you break one little commandment, you break them all. Do you ask forgiveness for breaking each and every commandment and law that you break in so doing? Are you lost and on your way to hell if you forget to confess a sin, or do you make that up by keeping the Torah better the next time?

But in case you refuse to read my thread on this, I am going to ask you a question: Do we have to be righteous or heed the Word of Yahweh?

Because Messiah fulfilled (pleroo) all righteousness in Matthew 3:15. Paul fulfilled (pleroo) the Word of Yahweh according to Colossians 1:25. What is your answer?

We are to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ and the Law which God wrote on our hearts after we were born of God, the Spirit. The commandments of Jesus Christ are fuller now with the understanding of the Spirit available to us. The Sabbath day commandment is expounded to mean rest from our works, not vocations. The Murder commandment is expounded to mean be angry with out of cause at our brother. The Adultery commandment is expounded to mean lusting after a woman within ones heart. We are not bound by the Law as we are not under the law, but as we abide in Jesus Christ we are to live submitting ourselves to him, crucifying the flesh and walking in the Spirit.

It is not some let's copy the Israelites way of life according to the Old Testament that Jesus was our example to follow. Why would he have us follow the law when we are now under grace; and why would he have had to die on the cross if man was able to keep the law?

This is not copying the Israelites. This is obeying Yahweh and becoming part of his elect (Israel). And your comment about following Torah vs. grace is flawed because being "under law" has nothing to do with obeying it. Being under law has to do with sin having dominion over us. Having grace from Yahweh is that sin forgiven us because of Messiah. However, we do not sin (break Torah; 1 John 3:4) because of grace (Romans 6:1-2, Romans 6:15).

Good, then you can start living apart from the bondage of the Law which imputes sin, and start living in Grace which imparts obedience.

As for the reason he died, it was to reunite Israel and Judah (Jerermiah 31:31-34) remarry one bride of Israel (Hosea 2; Romans 7:1-4) redeem all from Torah-less-ness (Titus 2:14), and allow Ephraim to be graffed back into the fold along with all nations who believe on the name of Yahshua (Ezekiel 37:16-28). He also died so the Spirit could be given. The Spirit is given because of our flesh, which breaks Torah. Now that we have the Spirit and the righteousness and atonement of Messiah that saves, we can become Yahweh workmanship (Ephesians 2:10) and walk in his Torah without being cursed if we stay faithful (Ezekiel 36:27).

Well that is about the best thing that you ever posted that reveals a semblance of truth. But the tight reins that you place on your understanding of the Word of Jesus Christ pales in comparison to the whole truth. The mystery of God in this last age is the Church. Your understanding of uniting Israel with Judah is refuted by Israelites and Messianic Jews today. You are in a small group that believes this and it is refuted in the scriptures.

Your ole corrupt, mortal flesh combats your ability to walk in the Spirit 100% of the time day in and day out, and your finite mind is not able to remember or know the sins that you commit by trying to keep the Torah.

This is irrelevant to any point. "Trying" is not the issue. You are preaching the "you will fail, don't try" doctrine. We do sin and stumble at Torah, but we have hope because of Messiah. Sin does not mean "don't keep Torah". Sin means you just need atonement and the good heart to do it willingly and joyfully to obey Yahweh. That's how David felt (Psalm 1 & Psalm 119).

Another good post where I understand what you are saying. I don't agree with it as it is Judaizing in my eyes, but hey, knock yourself out. This is the closest that I have read where you haven't seemed to claim masterdom over the Law of God and sin. At least you recognize that it is impossible to keep the Law. I will let you have the last word, wavy as I believe we will both go to our graves before we will agree.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving,
Michael

 

[cj]

...... We keep the sabbath as it is given to us because it was commanded.

You're now exposing yourselfr, for if you really "keep" the Sabbath day of the Jews you would first "keep" the first and second commandments, the two on which all the commandments and ordinances stand.

But you don't, and thus neither do you "keep" the Sabbath day of the Jews.

...... But Yahshua as "rest" has to do with the YOKE of MEN, not "rest" as in sabbath rest.

Was Jesus at rest during His thirty-three years before His death?

Was He not under the "yoke" of men during this time?

Do you even know what this "yoke" is?

Do you think there is any "rest" for men simply because they take a day off from physical work?

...... The sabbath is a day, not a person.

Actually, in reality all things of God is a Person, including His rest.

You obviously don't understand what is meant by the word shadow.

...... Please tell me in scripture where Messiah says that he is the sabbath,...

Try having "rest" without having Life.

Try having "rest" without having Peace.

Try having "rest" without having Hope.

...... or that even if he is, that means we do not have to keep the literal day....

Since the Person is our Life, our Peace, and our Hope, actually, since this Person is everything to us, and we are found in Him, and are even one with Him, we are beyond having to keep anything as we simply are what He is.

...... Keeping the sabbath is not "our own works" as you seem to be asserting. The sabbath belongs to Yahweh and it his HIS work if we obey it to keep it as he commanded.

Is that so,.... tell you what, why don't you point out the scripture that tells us what the work of God is so that we can see if it really says His work is to cause us to keep the Jewish Sabbath day.

To tell you the truth, based on your statement above I have to wonder if you even know what the work of God is.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

So he was not "born of God"? Don't you realize how stupid this sounded?

Jesus died; so tell me Wavy, can that which is born of God die?

Yet, we know that Jesus was born of God, so what gives?

Can God's seed suffer death?

The last Adam.... became.... the life-giving Spirit.


In love,
cj

 

[SputnikBoy]

.... tell you what, why don't you point out the scripture that tells us what the work of God is so that we can see if it really says His work is to cause us to keep the Jewish Sabbath day.

How many more times does one have to make the point that the Sabbath was initiated at Creation, not for the J-E-W but for for M-A-N (who had just been created), before people eventually catch on?

 

[cj]

How many more times does one have to make the point that the Sabbath was initiated at Creation, not for the J-E-W but for for M-A-N (who had just been created), before people eventually catch on?

Nobody's listening because we all know what you're saying just ain't so.

I know you desperately want to have this false assumption accepted as it will make your erroneous doctrine more paletable, but scripture is simply and clearly against what you're saying.


In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[SputnikBoy]

How many more times does one have to make the point that the Sabbath was initiated at Creation, not for the J-E-W but for for M-A-N (who had just been created), before people eventually catch on?

Nobody's listening because we all know what you're saying just ain't so.

If 'nobody' is listening because they just can't see the contents of the scripture that Vic posted above ...then that's too bad. What did I say that 'just ain't so', cj? Point it out to me and I'll concede that I'm wrong.

I know you desperately want to have this false assumption accepted as it will make your erroneous doctrine more paletable, but scripture is simply and clearly against what you're saying.

What false assumption, cj? Please respond. What erroneous doctrine? Please respond. Which scripture is simply and clearly against what I'm saying? Please respond.

Here's a challenge for you, cj. For starters, read the scripture contained in Vic's post and refute it. Then refute the 4th-commandment where God refers to that 'special day' of Creation week. Then refute the scripture where Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man when He could just as well have said that the Sabbath was made for the Jew. Refute these scriptures with other scriptures and get back with me, cj. Please!

 

[wavy]

Solo, alright. I'm done. You just want to argue ad hominem. No scripture. I can't continue.

The bible says to avoid strivings about Torah, and I need to repent for not heeding this Torah command.

Whatever you say, solo, just keep believing what you want.

But for the record, this:

I noticed that you never post scripture, you just post your interpretation that follows your false doctrine.

...is untrue and this:

Your definition is as skewed as the rest of your doctrine. I know that you hate to post scripture and I know why. It refutes you ridiculous stance on the Word of God.

Is more false accusation, and really is not necessary and very agressive for some one who claims to be "born of God".

Let freedom and truth ring by all those who actually (which I doubt) read all that fruitless nonsense...

As far as YOU, cj you must have a secret camera that follows me around too because I do not know how in the world you could make these statements:

You're now exposing yourselfr, for if you really "keep" the Sabbath day of the Jews you would first "keep" the first and second commandments, the two on which all the commandments and ordinances stand.

But you don't, and thus neither do you "keep" the Sabbath day of the Jews.

Thus I am done with you too. No hard feelings anyone, sorry if I have offended anyone. But this can't continue. The whole purpose of the scriptures is defeated doing this bickering.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Now just hold on, wavy. Put the ball in their court. Our friend, cj, needs to respond to a couple of challenges I threw his way. All of the appropriate scriptures for one's remaining obedient to the Sabbath have been presented on this thread. There really are not that many necessary for the point to have been made. What is required now is for cj to refute scripture with scripture. Let us see how game he is to do so.

 

[cj]

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Praise the Lord.

Now tell me, scripture tells us that "... in it...." He rested from "... all..." His work.

Where is the verse that tells us He came "out of it" and began working again.

And knowing that the OT was a "shadow" of that to come, what does the reality of the Jewish weekly Sabbath day look like?


Sputnik says that the Jewish weekly Sabbath day is the seventh day rest of God,..... show me the verse that says this.


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

You people are doing just what the Jews do who as Jesus says are obeying "teachings that are rules taught by men." Do you not understand what Paul means in Colosians when he says that it doesn't matter if someone honors one day or no days? We worship the living God, not rules, regulations, or days of the week! Your really do need to figure out what Jesus means by "teachings that are rules taught by men." And if you finally understand that, you will see why it's ridiculous to quibble about the law or on which days of the week to worship which Paul tells us in Titus. Hebrews 4:1-9 tells us what the Sabbath rest is. I'm sorry that so many people don't believe him and could care less.

 

[cj]

If 'nobody' is listening because they just can't see the contents of the scripture that Vic posted above ...then that's too bad. What did I say that 'just ain't so', cj? Point it out to me and I'll concede that I'm wrong.

I really hope that Vic did not post those verses as some sort of support for what you are saying, as I hold his scriptural understanding in higher regard.

See my response to Vic for clarification.

What false assumption, cj? Please respond. What erroneous doctrine? Please respond. Which scripture is simply and clearly against what I'm saying? Please respond.

See my response to Vic for clarification.

Here's a challenge for you, cj. For starters, read the scripture contained in Vic's post and refute it.

Refute what Sputnik? There is no connection made between those verses and what you have said.

Make a point and then I will consider my response to it.

Then refute the 4th-commandment where God refers to that 'special day' of Creation week.

You're straw-maning again; what is there to "refute" about a verse that is there for all to see?

Make a point and then perhaps I'll refute your point, but don't speak in a foolish way and then try to get me tp participate in your foolishness.

Then refute the scripture where Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man when He could just as well have said that the Sabbath was made for the Jew. Refute these scriptures with other scriptures and get back with me, cj. Please!

Sputnik, see if you can follow me..... I have nothing to "refute" concerning the scriptures, they say what they say and what they say is true.

But the spin you are attempting to apply to them is nothing but falsity.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

As far as YOU, cj you must have a secret camera that follows me around too because I do not know how in the world you could make these statements:....

No camera needed,..... I can because scripture does.

See Wavy, none of us are perfected as yet.

In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

wavy, please refrain from posting like you did above.

Lets all review our posts and ask ourselves, "is this what God wants me to say and is this the way He wants me say it?".

Thanks,
Vic

 

[Vic C.]

How many more times does one have to make the point that the Sabbath was initiated at Creation,...

Nobody's listening because we all know what you're saying just ain't so.

I know you desperately want to have this false assumption accepted as it will make your erroneous doctrine more palatable, but scripture is simply and clearly against what you're saying.

If 'nobody' is listening because they just can't see the contents of the scripture that Vic posted above ...then that's too bad. What did I say that 'just ain't so', cj? Point it out to me and I'll concede that I'm wrong.

I really hope that Vic did not post those verses as some sort of support for what you are saying, as I hold his scriptural understanding in higher regard.

See my response to Vic for clarification....
In love,
cj

Whoa! LOL I'm about to fall off the pedestal you keep putting me on, cj. My views on certain traditional doctrines are on the unorthodox side, in case you haven't noticed.

Let me break down the quotes above and explain why I quoted from Genesis.

Sputnik said sabbath was initiated at creation. You said no one is listening because what he is saying "ain't so".

I posted scripture showing sabbath was instituted at creation. As Moderator, I'm trying to expand the dialogue, maybe even play a little "devil's advocate". You did bring up something interesting when you said,

"Where is the verse that tells us He came "out of it" and began working again."

Although there is no explicit scripture saying so, I would disagree. I would ask this... if God never came out of His rest, when did He create Woman? When did He sacrifice animals to clothe them after the Fall? When did He do a lot of things that were done after the seventh day?

 

[guibox]

Let me break down the quotes above and explain why I quoted from Genesis.

Sputnik said sabbath was initiated at creation. You said no one is listening because what he is saying "ain't so".

I posted scripture showing sabbath was instituted at creation.

Yes, to say that the seventh day of creation is not the same as Sabbath is to ignore the contextual and linguistic link to both Gensis and Exodus 20. Any cursory reading of the 4th commandment from the scriptures blows this lame theory out of the water

"Where is the verse that tells us He came "out of it" and began working again."

Although there is no explicit scripture saying so, I would disagree. I would ask this... if God never came out of His rest, when did He create Woman? When did He sacrifice animals to clothe them after the Fall? When did He do a lot of things that were done after the seventh day?

Again, I agree. To say that God never 'ceased' resting is to ignore the humanistic link and emphasis of God resting and then commanding man to do the same thing. This is also where the 'Christ is our rest' thing breaks down with Hebrews 4.

As God rested from His works on the 7th day, so are we. As it took 6 days to create, the 7th day is also part of creation week too. In Exodus we see this reiteration and emphasis and with Hebrews are commanded to enter that Sabbath rest (sabbtismos- literal sabbath keeping) that has been left behind (or that remains).

Only a complete ignorance of the obvious link between creation week and the 7th day sabbath for mankind can lead to foolish and 'grasping for straws' theological errors that many Pauline worshipping/Christ ignoring people on this board are spewing

 

[Imagican]

Now, Wavy my friend, you just did the same thing that you accused me of. You demanded that I offer scripture. Then you come right back and offer NOTHING of Christ. EVERYTHING that you offer is from the OT. I KNOW what the NT, Christ Himself offered concerning the LAW. It has been fulfilled by the shedding of His blood, death, and resurrection.

You choose to live by THE LAW, you are bound by ALL THE LAW. I however revel in the freedom offered by Christ. While I must admit that one that is truly saved will be conformed by the Spirit, that individual is no longer bound by the ancient laws of the Hebrew, (unless you WANT to be. That's your choice). But beware my friend, you are doing just as those Paul warned us about. Re-teaching the 'old' laws as if Christ had NOT fulfilled these. Dangerous my friend. From what you offer, Christ's death isn't needed. We could have just continued in the Mosaic law to obey God. Sorry, that was impossible for them and impossible for us. Try it my friend, just for a week. It would take you YEARS to work it into your daily life in this generation. For if you choose to follow ONE 'LAW' your are bound to them all. I choose freedom and that's the gift that Christ offered to those that 'understand'. Freedom to sin, God forbid, NAY, but freedom FROM sin. Thank you JESUS.

 

[SputnikBoy]

If 'nobody' is listening because they just can't see the contents of the scripture that Vic posted above ...then that's too bad. What did I say that 'just ain't so', cj? Point it out to me and I'll concede that I'm wrong.

I really hope that Vic did not post those verses as some sort of support for what you are saying, as I hold his scriptural understanding in higher regard.

All I saw from Vic was scripture as written. He wasn't offering support for either side of this issue as far as I could see, just The Word.

And, cj, don't exalt yourself above other Christians on this forum in regard to your higher understanding of scripture. You are not debating these issues with a bunch of slouches. You should surely know that by now.

What false assumption, cj? Please respond. What erroneous doctrine? Please respond. Which scripture is simply and clearly against what I'm saying? Please respond.

See my response to Vic for clarification.

I've yet to read that. But how would a response to Vic answer my particular questions to you?

Here's a challenge for you, cj. For starters, read the scripture contained in Vic's post and refute it.

Refute what Sputnik? There is no connection made between those verses and what you have said.

It's a 'general' connection, cj. You have a problem with the Sabbath. Vic presented the scripture stating where it all began. I saw no point in re-posting what Vic had already posted.

Make a point and then I will consider my response to it.

The point is 'the Sabbath' and your aversion to continued observance of it. Is it necessary for me to keep spelling out the obvious?

Then refute the 4th-commandment where God refers to that 'special day' of Creation week.

You're straw-maning again; what is there to "refute" about a verse that is there for all to see? Make a point and then perhaps I'll refute your point, but don't speak in a foolish way and then try to get me to participate in your foolishness.

Please ...stop going simple on me, cj. You know the issue that is being discussed here. The debate concerns itself on whether or not the Sabbath Day is important enough for Christians to observe it today. You, cj, don't like the 4th-commandment (the Sabbath in general) and so I'm progressing along a line of thought here. You need to refute the Creation Sabbath as long as you refuse to acknowledge it. Okay? Then you need to refute the 4th-commandment as long as you refuse to acknowledge it. Get the idea?

Then refute the scripture where Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man when He could just as well have said that the Sabbath was made for the Jew. Refute these scriptures with other scriptures and get back with me, cj. Please!

Sputnik, see if you can follow me..... I have nothing to "refute" concerning the scriptures, they say what they say and what they say is true.

THEN ...you need to refute the above remark from Jesus about the Sabbath as long as you refuse to acknowledge it.

But the spin you are attempting to apply to them is nothing but falsity.

There is no spin, cj. No underhandedness. No falsities. None of this (my side of the argument anyway) is to do with denominational beliefs at all. It's all scripture. As far as this issue is concerned, the SDA Church doesn't exist.

In love,

You sure? Okay.

cj