Why I believe SDA's (& other sabbatarians) Are In Error

[wavy]

bumped for personal perusal....

thanks,
eric

 

[BobRyan]

This study does not prove lunar sabbatarian doctrine alone

True it does not prove it.

We see BOTH the weekly Sabbath AND the Lunar sabbath in Isaiah 66.

There is no such thing as deleting the 4th commandment showing us a 7 day cycle and pretending we only have a lunar cycle for Sabbath.

We also see in the language (legal code not symbolism and fable) of the 4th commandment in Ex 20:4-11 providing an exact summary of the Gen 1-2:3 creation week events. The 7th day Sabbath therefore affirms in legal code - literal creationism!

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Re:

I believe an unbiased and open-minded study of the Sabbath reveals that sabbath does not equal worship. (at least not corporate worship) Sabbath = rest. You want to do a worthy word study? Look up all the places in the OT where the word "sabbath" is used and you'll get a good idea how they kept this day.

Holy convocations were usually reserved for the Feasts. You can "see" this by reading Leviticus 23:1-44 . With all that being said, I can't find anywhere where the sabbath has been changed.

In Is 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before me to WORSHIP".

I think we get from the OT that the Sabbath was a day of worship.

We also see in Acts 13 that Jews, Gentiles and the Apostle Paul are gathered for worship on Sabbath.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Re:

Here's something that came to mind during service this morning... it isn't scriptual, as far as I know (hmm, maybe it is) but here it is...

Could we be dealing with two kinds of rest; one physical and one spiritual? God commanded a physical rest but only those in Christ can acheive the spiritual rest Jesus assures us.

In the sermon on the mount we learn that keeping the 6th commandment "do not murder" means that we also must not hate our brother. There is a literal truth to the commandment and there is also spiritual DEPTH to the commandments.

The same is probably true with the 4th commandment - the REST is both literal and physical and spiritual. That means that the OT Sabbath keeping saints of Heb 11 were reaping both benefits.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Re:

Boy, guess I will have to jump back in.

Wavy, the Hebrew laws as brought by Moses were just that. Laws. They required NO love for God by those that were commanded to follow them. They were a strict set of statutes that were often punishable by death to those that didn't follow them to the letter.

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart soul and mind"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

In Matt 22 the pre-cross teaching of Christ affirms that these two are the greatests commandments.

In other words, it didn't require a 'righteous' person to follow them out of 'love' for God and His wishes, all it took was adherence.

These people were commanded not to do ANY work on the Sabbath. Righteous or unrighteous. This is plainly offered in scripture of the OT.

True but we are getting into the mix of moral law as we see it in the Ten Commandments and civil law.

Notice that there is no civil penalty for not "loving God with all your heart soul and mind" Deut 6:5 but it is still the greatest of OT commandments.

Notice that there is now OT civil penalty for not "loving your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and yet this is the 2nd of the great OT commandments.

So, when Christ makes the comment about one's sheep falling into a pit, what was acceptable to the religion at this time was not at the time of Moses.

True - as Christ pointed out in Mark 7 they added many of their own traditions "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men".

A point that often seems neglected when referring to Christ and the law is that the 'fulfillment' of the law was; Christ as the LAST sacrifice for sin. Up until the time of Christ, sin was DEATH. God had offered the death of animals and the 'giving up of ones wealth' as a 'band-aid' to cover individuals sins. Christ died for this sin and the punishment it entailed. THAT is the fulfillment of the law. COMPLETE in Christ, the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

As Paul points out in Heb 10 the blood of animals never did anything at all to forgive sins.

So when we see Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in Matt 17 -- they stand there forgiven and in heavenly form -- by the blood of Christ alone. For as Paul points out in Romans 4 God sees those things that are not as though they are.

When Christ said pre-cross "your sins ARE forgiven" the forgiveness was through the blood of Christ alone from God who is not limited by time and sequence. Jesus Christ is the lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world.

This is why in Gal 1 Paul argues that there IS ( and has ever been) only one Gospel.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Re:

[
And knowing that the OT was a "shadow" of that to come, what does the reality of the Jewish weekly Sabbath day look like?

Sputnik says that the Jewish weekly Sabbath day is the seventh day rest of God,..... show me the verse that says this.

In love,
cj

In Ex 16 God says "tomorrow IS the Sabbath"

In Ex 20 God says "SIX days you shall labor ... but the 7th day IS the Sabbath ... FOR IN SIX DAYS the Lord MADE the heavens the earth the seas and ALL that is IN them".

Christ stood up in the synagogue to read scripture on Sabbath "as was his custom".

Christ argues in Mark 2:27-28 that "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" and then adds "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath". If He had "some other Sabbath in mind" then I would trust him to make that known 2000 years ago.

As it is today all Christians agree that Christ was raised on the FIRST day of the week and that the first day follows the SEVENTH. Interesting that both Christians and Jews agree with that weekly assignment of days.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Re:

The word used for "rest" in the verse from Psalms is very particular, inthat it defines the type of rest that is permanently found in..... marriage.

Whereas, the word you presented above, "shabbath" defines a temporary rest, a kind of intermission from one's work yet with the intention of continuing to work.

Additionally, "shabbath" is not,..... let me repeat again,..... "shabbath" is not.... the word used in relation to God's rest in Genesis,.... the word used is "shabath", which means in a sense, a putting away of something or desisting from it with no implication of any continuation of what was put away.

When God rested from His work (in Genesis) it was an eternal rest (shabath), but when a Jew rests from his work it is a temporary rest (shabbath).

In Gen 2 God rests from his work of creation after that first 7 day week.

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Re:

If you really want to believe the whole bible and not only parts of it like the SDA's do, then also believe Hebrews 4:1-9.

I do believe the whole thing. In fact, most of you are the last people that should be talking about believing the whole bible (the books from Matthew-Revelation seem to be the only ones that matter).

The problem is, Hebrews 4 doesn't tell me, in the slightest hint of understanding, not to keep the sabbath day or that Messiah is the "true rest", or that "he is our sabbath".

Heb 4 "they shall not enter my rest" is a quote from Psalms speaking of the rest of God valid both in the days of Israel at the time David mentioned it -- and valid still today.

Heb 4 does not argue for a change -- but rather the continuation of the same promised rest (salvation) given to the Sabbath-keeping Jews in David's day -- and offerred still to us today.

As you point out there is no "stop keeping Sabbath because Christ is your Sabbath" in Heb 4.

What is interesting is that the list of sabbath-keeping saints in Heb 11 are held up as examples of faith "giants of faith" if you will for NT Christians.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Re:

*
John here: Had you ever tried to understand Revelation 1:10 with John being in The Lord's 'rest' day, every day? :roll: :wink:

Please say more.

Do you have some translation of Rev 1:10 saying "Every day is the Lord's Day"?

According to the text which day is assigned that title?

What if we use Mark 2:27-28? Using that text which day would it be?

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Re:

Oh, I think I have some idea. Eccl. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man".

Well JayT, as true as the words of the above scripture are, its not the final word regarding God's will.

And the fact that you would present these words as a response to my statement simply, for me, exposes you "cluelessness" as to what God's will is.

1. 2Peter 1 "holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke FROM GOD".
2. 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the commandments of God"
3. John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments"
4. Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but rather he who DOES the will of My Father... he who hears these words of mine and does them..."
5. Romans 2 "it is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE Justified"

See JayT, "Fear(ing) God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man"....... is the response of man to God. But it is not the will of God for man.

Don't you think that God could just come to earth in all His glory, might, and authority..... and by His very presence have men fall on their faces in fear and trembling?

Just as we "do not refrain from murder" so that we can "earn heaven" neither do we "love God" or "keep Sabbath" so that we may "earn our way" to heaven.

Bob

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks Bob, but please, let others post too. The multiple posting floods the thread, doesn't allow others to respond, is frowned upon according to the ToS and in some cases, is considered spamming. 8-)

 

[BobRyan]

I started reading from page one -- and answered a few points raised in the first 4 pages.

I will refrain.

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Sabbath-antagonist: "Jesus is my sabbath!"

Sabbatharian: So the sabbath saves you?

But simply quote me where you read a Scripture that says Jesus is the Christian's sabbath?
I can quote you a Scripture that implicates Jesus is our 'rest' yes; but 'my sabbath'? No! Or, 'My Sabbath-keeping'? No! Or, 'My Sabbath Day'? No! --- no such Scripture! So don't think your Sabbath-works are going to save you, mate! They are just as good or bad as any of your own other works of self-righteousness.
The just shall live by faith. Now Hb4:8-10 says just that! "If Jesus had given them rest" --- that is faith!; "He having entered into His Own rest as God" ---- that is Faith!
"THEREFORE THEN", says verse 9 in between: "THEREFORE THEN", that is, BECAUSE we BELIEVE: Believe TWO things: A. That "Jesus had given them (God's People) Rest" --- the Rest which is Jesus Himself through victory of resurrection from the dead; and B. "BECAUSE He having entered into His Own Rest as God in His own" which again, is Jesus Himself through victory of resurrection from the dead;
"THEREFORE THEN" -- BECAUSE we BELIEVE -- says verse 9 in clearest differentiation possible from the 'Rest given' us in Christ and through Christ Himself: "THEREFORE THEN REMAINS VALID FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD (for us, Christians) KEEPING OF THE SABBATH DAY".

Until the day it becomes possible to put a = in between 'Rest/katapausis' and 'Keeping of the Sabbath Day/sabbatismos' --- until then, Christ is Lord of both His Sabbath Day and of God's keeping of his Sabbath Day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Typo: "until then, Christ is Lord of both His Sabbath Day and of God's keeping of his Sabbath Day.", must be: "until then, Christ is Lord of both His Sabbath Day and of God's PEOPLE's keeping of his Sabbath Day."

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

For me - and let the world think what it likes - the "Sabbath Day valid for the People of God", Christians, is determined not by moons or laws, but by its Lord Himself, and by that "exceeding greatness of God's Power when he raised Christ from the dead".

The Church never had trouble with using this rule for knowing WHICH day in the life of the Church SHOULD be its Day of Worship-Rest, namely, the day of the (Jewish) week Christ rose from the dead on.

Here is the ONLY 'problem', The Scriptures tell its readers "In the Sabbath", in fact, "IN Sabbath Day's fulness being mid day towards the First day of the week." So the Church CHANGED this plain and clear Text to "AFTER the Sabbath, ON the First Day of the week" SO ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN HAVE THE TRANSLATORS ALWAYS BEEN OF ON WHICH DAY the Church should 'keep Sabbath'. So accutely aware were they the Church hallowed the WRONG DAY, they actually perverted God's Word to make it say, 'Not on Sabbath; but on Sunday'.

Judgment day shall reveal the secret thoughts of men in high places; who say, "Thus saith the LORD" while the LORD has NEVER said thus!

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

cj wrote:
[
And knowing that the OT was a "shadow" of that to come, what does the reality of the Jewish weekly Sabbath day look like?

Sputnik says that the Jewish weekly Sabbath day is the seventh day rest of God,..... show me the verse that says this.

GE:
You show me the person who claims what you have said here, is in the Bible. I gaurantee you, no such great a fool will be found in all the world and history. No, but you do find in the Bible - and the more - in the New Testament, this Word written: "For God thus (that is, "through the Son", "in these last days") concerning the Seventh Day spake: And God, the Seventh Day from all His Works (in Christ Jesus and through Christ Jesus), rested."

I dare you, quote me anything one billionth of one word, "thus" "concerning" the First Day of the week, especially, by the name of "Sunday"! I dare you in the Name of Christ?

 

[duval]

Of course we all know "Sunday" is a calender day just as "Saturday" is a calendar day so we all know your "dare you" is safe.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

BobRyan:
"As it is today all Christians agree that Christ was raised on the FIRST day of the week and that the first day follows the SEVENTH. Interesting that both Christians and Jews agree with that weekly assignment of days."

GE:
Here we have that SDA audacity in all its grotesqness -- the audacity of those who investigate the genuineness of all confessing Christians, in the innermost of the heavenly sanctuary where they judge them too light or meeting the standards of SDA sanctimonuousness. "... all Christians agree that Christ was raised on the FIRST day of the week" .... any who do not believe this, they are not Christians as were it they believed not Christ rose from the dead!

But what disqualifies anyone from being judged by God not a Christian, is that he would deny and avoid to face the grand Truth of all Divine Truth, that Christ was raised by and in the Glory of the Father from the dead. He who keeps on denying this and keeps on defending Christ was raised from the dead by a created being, and was as any created being himself looked upon with riveted eye of mortal sinners, he must please explain how he, can call himself a Christian still.