Why I can't believe in rapture theory

[Randy]

Do you realize that these four living creatures Ezekiel saw in prophesy in the very midst of Jesus' throne (Rev 4:6) are redeemed humans? Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (And they are with Jesus in heaven prior to the part of the tribulation known as the temptation to come upon all the earth - Rev 3:10).

As I asked about Rev 3:10 a similar promised was made to king Josiah how was that fulfilled? Hint Rev 14:13
There are many Christians in heaven who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus now and the tribulation hasn't taken place yet nor any rapture.Ref (with Jesus prior to the tribulation) Yet I still get the sense these elders are older than anyone born after Jesus came down to us. Example Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph ,Enoch, Daniel any many more we don't even know about. That they would have been chosen by grace before they did good or bad like Paul . The seats given to those they would have been prepared for by grace. For only Jesus was found worthy of honor and power and glory.

 

[Eugene]

Do you realize that these four living creatures Ezekiel saw in prophesy in the very midst of Jesus' throne (Rev 4:6) are redeemed humans? Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (And they are with Jesus in heaven prior to the part of the tribulation known as the temptation to come upon all the earth - Rev 3:10).

They are not humans but 4 creatures as described in Rev. and Jesus was being found worthy of honor, power and glory because He poured out His blood for the many. And the 4 creatures could not have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb as they have been around the throne of God for ages. So maybe the statement redeemed is a general statement applying to the many that will and are redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Furthermore the 24 elders could be those who died and went to heaven as it doesn't state they were raptured.

It doesn't say they were raptured? They're in heaven with Jesus; even in the midst of His throne aren't they? Rev 4:6.
Please realize that these things John is being shown at that moment occur after Rev 4:1 where he is shown things which must be hereafter. To be in that place is due to their walk when they were on earth. I'm not sure how any we see in heaven have ever been there other than being caught up; even John in spirit as he is being shown these things.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Do you think there will be other angels or whatever reigning with Christ?

 

[Eugene]

Those are the 4 living creatures around the throne of God they were first noted in Ezekiel and are of God.
Ezekiel 1 NIV
I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now let’s consider what may be the image Ezekiel may have seen of the end time; the four characterizations shown. My bible reflects on the themes of the four gospels for instance showing Jesus.

Do we take on these different appearances as we’re changed from glory to glory?
Matthew shows Jesus the King - The Lion of Judah in Rev 5:5
Mark describes Christ the Servant - He came not to be served, but to be the offering
Luke shows Christ as man even in genealogy back to Adam. Lk 3:38
John shows the diety of Christ - the eagle in the heavens?

 

[Randy]

It doesn't say they were raptured? They're in heaven with Jesus; even in the midst of His throne aren't they? Rev 4:6.
Please realize that these things John is being shown at that moment occur after Rev 4:1 where he is shown things which must be hereafter. To be in that place is due to their walk when they were on earth. I'm not sure how any we see in heaven have ever been there other than being caught up; even John in spirit as he is being shown these things.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Do you think there will be other angels or whatever reigning with Christ?

Its still a future event and there are christians in heaven now. Rev 5:10 speaks of the resurrection not a pretribulation rapture.

 

[Eugene]

Its still a future event and there are Christians in heaven now. Rev 5:10 speaks of the resurrection not a pretribulation rapture.

The only thing I can ask to that is; are they around and in the midst of the throne? And the second sort of seals it for me. When Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2, has the tribulation began? Those of Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 had to be caught up to be there, they sing the song of being redeemed to God by tHis blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation in Rev 5:9, and they even participate in the opening of the seals opening the things to come in Rev 6:1 and other verses directing John to come and see.
These are the first John sees in heaven, and then later the great multitude arrives and stand before the throne in Rev 7:9.

 

[Randy]

The only thing I can ask to that is; are they around and in the midst of the throne? And the second sort of seals it for me. When Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2, has the tribulation began? Those of Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 had to be caught up to be there, they sing the song of being redeemed to God by tHis blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation in Rev 5:9, and they even participate in the opening of the seals opening the things to come in Rev 6:1 and other verses directing John to come and see.
These are the first John sees in heaven, and then later the great multitude arrives and stand before the throne in Rev 7:9.

Dont you believe in a bodily resurrection of all the saints on the last day?
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Th beast is released at the sounding of the 5th trump. But the kingdom of this world shall become the kingdom of God and His Christ at the sounding of the 7th trump. Rev 16:15 is at the last of the tribulation. There are christians beheaded by the beast. The beast makes war against the saints.

About the resurrection. It was well understood and taught Jesus would send out His angels to gather His elect from the ends of the heavens. The resurrection of us all on the last day. It is to be a bodily resurrection a body not of the dust of the earth. There will be saints alive on earth on that day and they will be caught up to the Lord so that they to can be clothed with immortality. Therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer. There is only one resurrection of the righteous. And one resurrection of the unrighteous.

 

[Eugene]

The only thing I can ask to that is; are they around and in the midst of the throne? And the second sort of seals it for me. When Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2, has the tribulation began? Those of Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 had to be caught up to be there, they sing the song of being redeemed to God by tHis blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation in Rev 5:9, and they even participate in the opening of the seals opening the things to come in Rev 6:1 and other verses directing John to come and see.
These are the first John sees in heaven, and then later the great multitude arrives and stand before the throne in Rev 7:9.

Dont you believe in a bodily resurrection of all the saints on the last day?
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Th beast is released at the sounding of the 5th trump. But the kingdom of this world shall become the kingdom of God and His Christ at the sounding of the 7th trump. Rev 16:15 is at the last of the tribulation. There are christians beheaded by the beast. The beast makes war against the saints.
About the resurrection. It was well understood and taught Jesus would send out His angels to gather His elect from the ends of the heavens. The resurrection of us all on the last day. It is to be a bodily resurrection a body not of the dust of the earth. There will be saints alive on earth on that day and they will be caught up to the Lord so that they to can be clothed with immortality. Therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer. There is only one resurrection of the righteous. And one resurrection of the unrighteous.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Dear brother, you are quoting the manner of our being caught up unto God to meet Him in the air, regardless the order we’re found to be in. In other words those that are caught up first bodily of Rev 4:4 are those that have been faithful unto death (The dead in Christ) of Rev 2:10 and have a crown. Those of Rev 4:6 who faithfully keep the word of God that are promised to be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world in Rev 3:10 and they too have a crown. The other five parts of the Church of Revelation Chapters Two and Three have no such commendations, but are told to repent or suffer judgments. We see them appear standing before the throne instead of around about and in the midst of it, come out of great tribulation, and are servants (Rev 7:15) instead of being priests and kings to God (Rev 5:10).

Now this order is as follows.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Since John sees different ones in Christ arriving in heaven at different times, would it make sense to you that there must needs be more than one rapture (being caught up)? For instance, the 144,000 we see in Rev 14:1 stand before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders. Can we safely assume the 24 elders and four living ones were already in heaven when the 144,000 arrived?

About the resurrection. It was well understood and taught Jesus would send out His angels to gather His elect from the ends of the heavens. The resurrection of us all on the last day. It is to be a bodily resurrection a body not of the dust of the earth. There will be saints alive on earth on that day and they will be caught up to the Lord so that they to can be clothed with immortality. Therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer.

I’ll just give this scripture in Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus is comparing life versus death, and when does a believer leave their body to be present with the Lord? The moment they die?
2 Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

There is only one resurrection of the righteous. And one resurrection of the unrighteous.

Would you consider Lazarus as having been resurrected in Jn 11:43? What of them in Mat 27:53 that came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Could it be possible there are two types of the resurrection? One of the dead, and one of them alive forever in Jesus regardless when they arrive?

 

[Randy]

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Dear brother, you are quoting the manner of our being caught up unto God to meet Him in the air, regardless the order we’re found to be in. In other words those that are caught up first bodily of Rev 4:4 are those that have been faithful unto death (The dead in Christ) of Rev 2:10 and have a crown. Those of Rev 4:6 who faithfully keep the word of God that are promised to be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world in Rev 3:10 and they too have a crown. The other five parts of the Church of Revelation Chapters Two and Three have no such commendations, but are told to repent or suffer judgments. We see them appear standing before the throne instead of around about and in the midst of it, come out of great tribulation, and are servants (Rev 7:15) instead of being priests and kings to God (Rev 5:10).

Now this order is as follows.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Since John sees different ones in Christ arriving in heaven at different times, would it make sense to you that there must needs be more than one rapture (being caught up)? For instance, the 144,000 we see in Rev 14:1 stand before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders. Can we safely assume the 24 elders and four living ones were already in heaven when the 144,000 arrived?

I’ll just give this scripture in Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus is comparing life versus death, and when does a believer leave their body to be present with the Lord? The moment they die?
2 Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Would you consider Lazarus as having been resurrected in Jn 11:43? What of them in Mat 27:53 that came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Could it be possible there are two types of the resurrection? One of the dead, and one of them alive forever in Jesus regardless when they arrive?

Those that are caught up to the lord are ALL those in Christ that are alive on earth not a special select. The dead in Christ rise first is just that the resurrection of the saints on the last day and it is a bodily resurrection. The resurrection Jesus spoke of was on the last day. That excludes any raised in their mortal body before that appoint time. And we have been promised new bodies not of the dust of the earth. I don't know why those caught up the last day would need their old bodies as they are clothed with immortality. That is their spirit could be caught up leaving their lifeless bodies on earth behind as they get the new body as well. Jesus stated he would send out His angels on the last day to gather His elect from the ends of the heavens. Thats everyone at the same time. Rev 16:15 Behold I come like a thief...Thats at the and of tribulation as Jesus strikes down the beast and His armies as well on that day. I don't see the 144000 literally in heaven in rev 14. I see them chosen and anointed and they follow Jesus. Some or many may be killed by the beast but I don't know numbers in that regard. The resurrection speaks of those who lost their heads by the beast because they remained faithful to Jesus.

I have already addressed rev 3:10.

 

[Eugene]

Those that are caught up to the lord are ALL those in Christ that are alive on earth not a special select. The dead in Christ rise first is just that the resurrection of the saints on the last day and it is a bodily resurrection. The resurrection Jesus spoke of was on the last day. That excludes any raised in their mortal body before that appoint time. And we have been promised new bodies not of the dust of the earth. I don't know why those caught up the last day would need their old bodies as they are clothed with immortality. That is their spirit could be caught up leaving their lifeless bodies on earth behind as they get the new body as well. Jesus stated he would send out His angels on the last day to gather His elect from the ends of the heavens. Thats everyone at the same time. Rev 16:15 Behold I come like a thief...Thats at the and of tribulation as Jesus strikes down the beast and His armies as well on that day. I don't see the 144000 literally in heaven in rev 14. I see them chosen and anointed and they follow Jesus. Some or many may be killed by the beast but I don't know numbers in that regard. The resurrection speaks of those who lost their heads by the beast because they remained faithful to Jesus.

I have already addressed rev 3:10.

OK Brother Randy, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, and it's not likely to change the price of rice in China. Thanks so much for your input; it made me dig again, and just to let you know, I can't remember anyone on these forums ever agreeing with my understanding of the last days.

 

[Politico]

So many people believe in a rapture without any proof or evidence except "this word means this or this word means that" when quoting scripture.
Matt.24:13 Jesus said he who endure to the end shall be saved.
24:21 He mentions the tribulation and what will happen during it,then in verse 29,He states that immediately after the tribulation the Angels will reap,verse31.
The new fad now is that Revelations 4:1 describes a rapture because John was told to "come up hither"
John had a vision like Daniel,Ezekiel,and others.He was not physically taken to Heaven.He certainly wasn't dead at that point and the Bible states plainly flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.Even Paul stated that he was caught up......would that constitute another rapture theory..

Probably because you're so ill informed.

 

[Corn Pop]

A generation in the bible is 40 or 70 years. It proves it over and over. Thats scripture, its biblical.

Jesus told his diciples this generation would not pass untill all these things be fullfilled.

From the birth of Christ until the temple was destroyed and Jerusalems great tribulation was exactly 70 years. From the time Christ started preaching these things and the Gospel in 30ad to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalems great tribulation was exactly 40 years.

When Christ said "this generation will not pass untill all these thing be fullfilled", exactly 40 years later the temple was levelled and Jerusalem had great tribulation. Believers in Christs words fleed to the mountains when they seen Jerusalem being surrounded by the army of the north. Everyine else was saying hide us from the wrath of God and Prophets on the streets saying woe woe to Jerusalem.

I think Christ returned, just not in the way people expect.

People want Jesus to return the way they want him to return and how they interpret scripture, but Jesus does not return the way people want and expect him to.

 

[Corn Pop]

"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Did everyone in the world see Jesus go to heaven, no, only a couple diciples who were in Galilee.

So should everyone in the world see and know of Jesus return in like manner its some big scene and drama. No.

 

[jasonc]

"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Did everyone in the world see Jesus go to heaven and it was big scene and drama?, no, only a couple diciples.

So should everyone in the world see and know of Jesus return in like manner. No.

uhm those alive will and trust me when He returns No soul wont know that event. it will mean they die and are judged quickly or are redeemed in that process. we cant just take all of the prophecies on the Day of the lord and assume in err that its all over. there is going to be a redemption and well Death hasn't been placed under the feet of Jesus. that means He hasn't returned nor turned the reign back the to the Father. Nor has the dead been Judged.

 

[Corn Pop]

Problem 1.

People think God should tell them everything when God tells people what he wants to tell them, and who needs to know what.

Oh, but this prophecy isn't in the bible or recorded anywhere for me to see so it cannot have happened.

God gave specific prophecy to specific people for specific times. Some we know of is fullfilled because its noted while others we may not know of because we don't need to know, or didnt live it, or its not recorded. All everyone needs is the gospel. That is all.

People look at prophecy as if if they can't find it or make it up in there own head to suit it cannot have happened because God didnt let them know. So people make things up to fit a prophecy. There is hundreds of prophecy theories out there.

When it comes to the first century for example we have some historical information from different sources but we don't know everything that went on every year and every day and every event.

 

[jasonc]

Problem 1.

People think God should tell them everything when God tells people what he wants to tell them, and who needs to know what.

Oh, but this prophecy isn't in the bible or recorded anywhere for me to see so it cannot have happened.

God gave specific prophecy to specific people for specific times. Some we know of is fullfilled because its noted while others we may not know of because we don't need to know, or didnt live it, or its not recorded. All everyone needs is the gospel. That is all.

People look at prophecy as if if they can't find it or make it up in there own head to suit it cannot have happened because God didnt let them know. So people make things up to fit a prophecy. There is hundreds of prophecy theories out there.

When it comes to the first century for example we have some historical information from different sources but we don't know everything that went on every year and every day and every event.

has the resurrection occurred of the dead? has death been dealt with?

 

[Corn Pop]

has the resurrection occurred of the dead? has death been dealt with?

As far as I know of there were two known ressurections in the bible, and in Hebrews where it says Christ broke the power of the devil through his death, so I can only conclude the devil is powerless and there has been ressurections of the dead.

Maybe there is a finally ressurection I don't know. I just believe in Christ and his work thats all, I just believe the gospel. I don't follow any doctrines. Just believe the gospel and that it.

 

[jasonc]

As far as I know of there were two known ressurections in the bible, and in Hebrews where it says Christ broke the power of the devil through his death, so I can only conclude the devil is powerless and there has been ressurections of the dead.

Maybe there is a finally ressurection I don't know. I just believe in Christ and his work thats all, I just believe the gospel. I don't follow any doctrines. Just believe the gospel and that it.

there is a physical resurrection that has yet to occur and well the devil never had full control of the earth but to say he isn't in power of the nations is really a stretch. even trump cant on his own handle the Devil without Jesus . we have yet to be transformed when you take the position of all must be taken as a preterist you will run into full preterism a heresy on this site. no position, not mine, yours or a futurist has all of it figured out.

 

[Corn Pop]

there is a physical resurrection that has yet to occur and well the devil never had full control of the earth but to say he isn't in power of the nations is really a stretch. even trump cant on his own handle the Devil without Jesus . we have yet to be transformed when you take the position of all must be taken as a preterist you will run into full preterism a heresy on this site. no position, not mine, yours or a futurist has all of it figured out.

All I know is I believe the gospel of Christ, and I hold on to that, I don't know where I stand on the rest. There is a million directions and theories and doctrine.

 

[jasonc]

All I know is I believe the gospel of Christ, and I hold on to that, I don't know where I stand on the rest. There is a million directions and theories and doctrine.

you can say that way better as the resurrection has yet to occur and final judgement very simplistic but its not a heresy. my pastor is amil and also probably partial preterist

 

[Corn Pop]

you can say that way better as the resurrection has yet to occur and final judgement very simplistic but its not a heresy. my pastor is amil and also probably partial preterist

Actually there are 4 resurrections in scripture, one in the old Testament, lazareth, the tombs that broke open, and Christ. Or 3 if tomb and Christ is same.