Why I can't believe in rapture theory

[Randy]

2000 years ago the Apostle Paul wrote to the congregation of the Thessalonians.

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve"

So Paul is speaking about people who are dead.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

Paul is saying himself and the Thessalonian congregation at that time who were alive and not dead will not prevent them that are dead until the coming of the Lord, as the spoken word of the Lord.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul tells the Thessalonians that himself and the Thessalonians who are alive because they are not dead, will meet the Lord and the dead in the air.

Did all the Thessalonians in that generation die and no one was alive who the letter was acturally written to at that time and who read the letter meet the Lord in the air and Paul also just died?

Any Thessalonians around these days?. Paging the Church of the Thessalonians. Anyone seen the Thessalonians?

Just a coincendence no one knows what happened to Paul or how or why or where he died. Its like he dissapeared like he just vanished.

Closest is 2 timothy where he was ready to be rewarded with others waiting for his appearing on that Day.

Or the we in which Paul stated applies to the church - those that remain alive at the 2nd coming and the resurrection.
as you posted="For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."
No one knew of the day or hour of that day not even the Son Only the Father so Paul couldn't have been given/known a date that it was in His lifetime. The "we" is speaking of all christians as Jesus will gather His elect from the ends of the heavens on that day. It is not a possible answer that Paul was speaking of His day. I think Paul saw His death in Rome beforehand. But went anyway so that the gospel could be preached in Rome.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Or the we in which Paul stated applies to the church - those that remain alive at the 2nd coming and the resurrection.
as you posted="For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."
No one knew of the day or hour of that day not even the Son Only the Father so Paul couldn't have been given/known a date that it was in His lifetime. The "we" is speaking of all christians as Jesus will gather His elect from the ends of the heavens on that day. It is not a possible answer that Paul was speaking of His day. I think Paul saw His death in Rome beforehand. But went anyway so that the gospel could be preached in Rome.

AMEN!

 

[Corn Pop]

Have any seen the return of the Lord Jesus in the air with those that died (a cloud of witnesses - Heb 12:1) prior to Paul? Where in scripture is John shown the appearance of those departed saints in heaven? Do you realize that those caught up to meet Jesus in the air of 1 Thes 4:17 refers to heaven?

I concur.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I iust read the title closely and Man, what a question! The Rapture is not science and there by was never a theory, The Rapture is a God breathed Truth. And if one cannot believe God for what has for us, you might want to do a Spiritual Inventory.

 

[Eugene]

I iust read the title closely and Man, what a question! The Rapture is not science and there by was never a theory, The Rapture is a God breathed Truth.

Like the song "God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me." :amen

 

[Randy]

Like the song "God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me." :amen

Yes,those alive on earth caught up to meet Jesus at the 2nd coming and resurrection of us all on the last day. Not a pretribulation rapture. When people hear the term rapture they tend to put it together with pretrib rapture.

 

[Eugene]

Yes,those alive on earth caught up to meet Jesus at the 2nd coming and resurrection of us all on the last day. Not a pretribulation rapture. When people hear the term rapture they tend to put it together with pretrib rapture.

I reckon you know I have to disagree.

OK. let me give it to you according to my understanding.
The Lord's Day (Rev 1:10) & the Day of the Lord are one and the same. (1Th 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Being on Patmos, John was caught forward to that day future in spirit, and given three viewpoints from that point in time: past, present, and future.
In Rev 4:1 we see John invited into heaven: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.."

Next John is shown Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2. ". . a throne was set in heaven, and One (Jesus) sat on the throne", and we see in Rev 4:8 the four beasts saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Jesus).
If there are no saints caught up prior to the tribulation (Rev 3:10), what are the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 doing with Jesus in heaven at that time, and how did they get there?

I punt, and await your return.

 

[n2thelight]

I reckon you know I have to disagree.

OK. let me give it to you according to my understanding.
The Lord's Day (Rev 1:10) & the Day of the Lord are one and the same. (1Th 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Being on Patmos, John was caught forward to that day future in spirit, and given three viewpoints from that point in time: past, present, and future.
In Rev 4:1 we see John invited into heaven: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.."

Next John is shown Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2. ". . a throne was set in heaven, and One (Jesus) sat on the throne", and we see in Rev 4:8 the four beasts saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Jesus).
If there are no saints caught up prior to the tribulation (Rev 3:10), what are the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 doing with Jesus in heaven at that time, and how did they get there?

I punt, and await your return.

They are those who have died throughout time.

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The flesh at death is done with,and will not rise,as it's just dirt,those alive at the return of Christ will be changed to like those Christ brings with Him....

 

[Eugene]

If there are no saints caught up prior to the tribulation (Rev 3:10), what are the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 doing with Jesus in heaven at that time, and how did they get there?

They are those who have died throughout time.

Hi Brother n2thelight, are you saying that all the righteous dead from all time will be grouped together as the body of Christ? Returning to Rev 4:1, how would this be of things which must be hereafter from the perspective of the beginning of the Lord's Day?
I read of those Jesus went first to in the lower parts of the earth to preach to when He died according to Eph 4:8-10. That's where paradise was that Jesus took the thief in Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Where is paradise today? 2Co 12:4 How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise.

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Please notice something concerning these souls under the altar (I do not know exactly what that suggests), but in Rev 6:10-11 we see them clothed in white robes of righteousness which shows them to be in Christ, and they're waiting for their brethren that should be killed as they were. Is this really a company made up of Old Testament believers?

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

In my opinion there was not one of the righteous of the Old Testament that could claim that scripture in 2 Cor 5:8, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord;" Jesus had not even risen at that time.

The flesh at death is done with,and will not rise,as it's just dirt,those alive at the return of Christ will be changed to like those Christ brings with Him....

I really have no idea where you're getting this thinking, because if all we who are in Christ are absent from our bodies, and present with Christ, and our bodies in the grave, what is it about us that will be caught up to be with Jesus when the time comes?

 

[Randy]

I reckon you know I have to disagree.

OK. let me give it to you according to my understanding.
The Lord's Day (Rev 1:10) & the Day of the Lord are one and the same. (1Th 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Being on Patmos, John was caught forward to that day future in spirit, and given three viewpoints from that point in time: past, present, and future.
In Rev 4:1 we see John invited into heaven: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.."

Next John is shown Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2. ". . a throne was set in heaven, and One (Jesus) sat on the throne", and we see in Rev 4:8 the four beasts saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Jesus).
If there are no saints caught up prior to the tribulation (Rev 3:10), what are the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 doing with Jesus in heaven at that time, and how did they get there?

I punt, and await your return.

May saints have fallen asleep. There were those that pleased God before Jesus came as well. Moses, Abraham, enoch etc.. Ref 24 elders
In regard to Rev 3:10 a simular promise was made to king Josiah- how was that fulfilled?

This is at the end of the tribulation - the great battle of God almighty
Rev 16:15 -the bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness
2 thess 2:8

also what is to come can have past events included:Ref Rev 12:5

 

[Eugene]

May saints have fallen asleep. There were those that pleased God before Jesus came as well. Moses, Abraham, enoch etc.. Ref 24 elders

What do you think of Rev 4:2 when taking into account Rev 5:8-10? Those of the 24 elders sing the song of redemption by the blood.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (actually over the earth with Jesus in heaven) the earth.

What portion of the Church might be considered to be those elders in heaven before us?
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. These represent the faithful unto death versus those remaining alive until the promise to those of Rev 3:10 who faithfully keep the word of God that will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world.

What is to come can have past events included: Ref Rev 12:5

What do you think of keeping the context of the scripture of Rev 12:5 as being subsequent to the viewpoint of things shown John he is told in Rev 4:1? . . I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. When is this hereafter? From the time Jesus takes His own throne in Rev 4:2 to begin His reign? Many see this man child and point to Jesus who was not immediately caught up to God when He was born. No it is hereafter just prior to the beginning of the second half of the tribulation.

Well, just who is this man child?
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works (Whose works?) unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: (Which nations if this at the end?)
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Also notice something about the woman of Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (does this bring to mind the time left of the second half of the week of tribulation?)

For the moment notice something about the 144,000 caught up to God told us in Rev 14:3. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders (Notice those there in heaven prior to them even being caught up to God): and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (firstfruits of who? Israel? The 24 elders, the 4 beasts, and the great multitude that came out of great tribulation were there ahead of them.

I’ll stop here before going forward to await your thinking on this. Thanks for your replies.

 

[Randy]

What do you think of Rev 4:2 when taking into account Rev 5:8-10? Those of the 24 elders sing the song of redemption by the blood.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (actually over the earth with Jesus in heaven) the earth.

What portion of the Church might be considered to be those elders in heaven before us?
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. These represent the faithful unto death versus those remaining alive until the promise to those of Rev 3:10 who faithfully keep the word of God that will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world.

What do you think of keeping the context of the scripture of Rev 12:5 as being subsequent to the viewpoint of things shown John he is told in Rev 4:1? . . I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. When is this hereafter? From the time Jesus takes His own throne in Rev 4:2 to begin His reign? Many see this man child and point to Jesus who was not immediately caught up to God when He was born. No it is hereafter just prior to the beginning of the second half of the tribulation.

Well, just who is this man child?
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works (Whose works?) unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: (Which nations if this at the end?)
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Also notice something about the woman of Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (does this bring to mind the time left of the second half of the week of tribulation?)

For the moment notice something about the 144,000 caught up to God told us in Rev 14:3. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders (Notice those there in heaven prior to them even being caught up to God): and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (firstfruits of who? Israel? The 24 elders, the 4 beasts, and the great multitude that came out of great tribulation were there ahead of them.

I’ll stop here before going forward to await your thinking on this. Thanks for your replies.

Ref rev 12:6 The dragon couldn't get to them so
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s
commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Ref rev 13
It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.b

9Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10“If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

The angel of the abyss is released at the sounding of the 5th trump of God-the One who kills the 2 witnesses in Rev 11 after their testimony has been completed (1260 days). He will trample on the holy City for 42 months and be destroyed by the 2nd coming of Jesus Rev 16:15-16 2thess 2:8 on that last day Jesus spoke of

It is not until the sounding of the last trump (7th) that the kingdom of this world becomes the Kingdom of God and His Christ. So from the sounding of 5th to 7th trumps the bowl judgments take place - for it is those judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness and they are the last of Gods wrath for with them Gods wrath is completed. Ref REV 15 and 16

 

[Eugene]

It is not until the sounding of the last trump (7th) that the kingdom of this world becomes the Kingdom of God and His Christ. So from the sounding of 5th to 7th trumps the bowl judgments take place - for it is those judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness and they are the last of Gods wrath for with them Gods wrath is completed. Ref REV 15 and 16

No problem with this if I’m understanding the point you’re attempting to make, but what of those saints with Christ prior to the seventh trump? Some such as the four beasts in Rev 6:1 are instrumental in the seals being opened at the beginning of the tribulation. (they were in heaven before the tribulation began.) “And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.”

 

[Randy]

No problem with this if I’m understanding the point you’re attempting to make, but what of those saints with Christ prior to the seventh trump? Some such as the four beasts in Rev 6:1 are instrumental in the seals being opened at the beginning of the tribulation. (they were in heaven before the tribulation began.) “And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.”

Don't you think now almost 2000 years from the beginning that there are many saints in heaven ?

 

[Randy]

Saints in heaven Ref Rev 6
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,e were killed just as they had been.

 

[Eugene]

Don't you think now almost 2000 years from the beginning that there are many saints in heaven ?

I surely do, and yet their bodies have not been caught up yet. The first group of saints that will experience that is those elders of Rev 4:4, to be joined by those alive at Jesus' coming in the air to meet those alive that are ready in Rev 4:6. And there are those Old Testament righteous taken captive at Jesus ascension in paradise.

 

[Eugene]

Saints in heaven Ref Rev 6
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Did you also notice the four beasts in Rev 6:1, Rev 6:3, Rev 6:5, and Rev 6:7. And if there is no rapture, how'd they get there?

 

[Randy]

Did you also notice the four beasts in Rev 6:1, Rev 6:3, Rev 6:5, and Rev 6:7. And if there is no rapture, how'd they get there?

Those are the 4 living creatures around the throne of God they were first noted in Ezekiel and are of God.
Ezekiel 1 NIV
I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

 

[Eugene]

Those are the 4 living creatures around the throne of God they were first noted in Ezekiel and are of God.
Ezekiel 1 NIV
I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

Do you realize that these four living creatures Ezekiel saw in prophesy in the very midst of Jesus' throne (Rev 4:6) are redeemed humans? Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (And they are with Jesus in heaven prior to the part of the tribulation known as the temptation to come upon all the earth - Rev 3:10).

 

[Randy]

Do you realize that these four living creatures Ezekiel saw in prophesy in the very midst of Jesus' throne (Rev 4:6) are redeemed humans? Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (And they are with Jesus in heaven prior to the part of the tribulation known as the temptation to come upon all the earth - Rev 3:10).

They are not humans but 4 creatures as described in Rev. and Jesus was being found worthy of honor, power and glory because He poured out His blood for the many. And the 4 creatures could not have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb as they have been around the throne of God for ages. So maybe the statement redeemed is a general statement applying to the many that will and are redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Furthermore the 24 elders could be those who died and went to heaven as it doesn't state they were raptured.