why modern premillenialism fails

[Hitch]

You are missing the whole point. It is not about which throne is greater, but rather the fulfillment of a prophecy.

Do you really believe that Christ is to be humiliated again ?

Besides I have demonstrated directly, that the throne Dave sat on and passed to Sol was the Lord's throne .

But you are mistaken it has a great deal to do with Christ's humility and aascendancy.

 

[Hitch]

There is no comparison of which is glorious but rather fulfillment of prophecy. To prove a position, no scripture verse must be contradicted.

Felix what is Christ doing today?

 

[felix]

Since Christ has ascended to the highest throne and claims 'all power in heaven and earth' and the departed saints are present with him,,,,what are they doing today?

Putting all enemies under feet:
(1Cor 15:25-26) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy [that] will be destroyed [is] death.

While Christ reigns by sitting on the right hand of God, the kingdoms of this earth are not directly under Him. It only happens when the 7th Angel sounds:
(Rev 11:15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

 

[felix]

Felix what is Christ doing today?

Waiting patiently that none should perish:
(2Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
(2Pet 3:10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

 

[Hitch]

Putting all enemies under feet:
(1Cor 15:25-26) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy [that] will be destroyed [is] death.

Exactly .He is reigning right now .And all his departed saints with him '

While Christ reigns by sitting on the right hand of God, the kingdoms of this earth are not directly under Him. It only happens when the 7th Angel sounds:
(Rev 11:15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

Oh and who are they under?

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.


You need to explain why Jesus claims all the power and authority in heaven and earth when it is not true.

Now since you seem to like literalism, at least to a point, I'll remind you of a plain prophetic utterance Jesus repeats four times in a row.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

IS Paul correct teaching that the last enemy is death and death is destroyed by resurrection ?

Where in history does Jesus place the resurrection ?

 

[felix]

Do you really believe that Christ is to be humiliated again ?

Besides I have demonstrated directly, that the throne Dave sat on and passed to Sol was the Lord's throne .

But you are mistaken it has a great deal to do with Christ's humility and aascendancy.

The reason why throne of David was specified and not Solomon's is because God promised and made a covenant only with David not Solomon. So, it is very essential for that prophecy to be fulfilled. It is not a matter of humiliation. If you think so, Christ was already humiliated to an extend that no man can be humiliated further and even died while He being the king of king.

He came to this world as a servant while He was still a "King" of His own Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven as in John 18:36 which says, Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

So, Jesus is yet to fulfill that prophecy.

 

[felix]

Exactly .He is reigning right now .And all his departed saints with him ' Oh and who are they under?

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.


You need to explain why Jesus claims all the power and authority in heaven and earth when it is not true.

Now since you seem to like literalism, at least to a point, I'll remind you of a plain prophetic utterance Jesus repeats four times in a row.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

IS Paul correct teaching that the last enemy is death and death is destroyed by resurrection ?

Where in history does Jesus place the resurrection ?

You are frequently deviating from the point we are discussing:

(Rev 20:3) and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

If Amillennialism, when did this happen?

If Christ is ruling this world, why is sin still abundant?

(John 14:30) "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

 

[Hitch]

The reason why throne of David was specified and not Solomon's is because God promised and made a covenant only with David not Solomon. So, it is very essential for that prophecy to be fulfilled. It is not a matter of humiliation. If you think so, Christ was already humiliated to an extend that no man can be humiliated further and even died while He being the king of king.

Get it Felix that throne was typical of the Right Hand of God. It is fulfilled today as you said yourself Christ is reigning currently

He came to this world as a servant while He was still a "King" of His own Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven as in John 18:36 which says, Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

So, Jesus is yet to fulfill that prophecy.

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son


So you have a lot of work to do.

you need to correct Jesus because you say he does NOT have all the power and authority in heaven and earth.

And you need to rewrite Paul's letter to the Collosisans. I mean how could we possibly be in his kingdom since you say it does not exist ?

 

[Hitch]

You are frequently deviating from the point we are discussing:

(Rev 20:3) and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

If Amillennialism, when did this happen?

If Christ is ruling this world, why is sin still abundant?

First I'll direct you to Matthew 13 and the parable of the wheat and the tares.

you notice that Jesus teaches the wheat and the tares grow AT THE SAME TIME . And are separated at the end of time.

OK?

Now earlier you quoted Paul , and the text Paul was quoting is in the Psalms ;

1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.



This RULE takes place in the proximty of the enemy. Just as described in M13.


Niterz

 

[felix]

Get it Felix that throne was typical of the Right Hand of God. It is fulfilled today as you said yourself Christ is reigning currently Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son


So you have a lot of work to do.

you need to correct Jesus because you say he does NOT have all the power and authority in heaven and earth.

And you need to rewrite Paul's letter to the Collosisans. I mean how could we possibly be in his kingdom since you say it does not exist ?

(John 14:30) "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
(Eph 2:2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Who is the ruler of this world and the prince of the power of the air? if Christ is reigning over this earth, how can there be two rulers?

 

[jasoncran]

so its a jewish thing, you do realise that isreal isnt needed for that anymore. what was the function of isreal in the ot? to be used as a light unto the gentiles? yes its clearly in the law of moses.

why would you call the ot and its torah and abonimation then say we are going back to that. for in order for their to be literal throne then there must a tribal nation and that my friend is why modern premillianilism fails.

isreal after the Lords final redemption of the earth wont be needed. sure there will be a hebrew people as he said that he would keep a remnant of the nation, and i believe that they all will be in isreal as the land promise isnt negated.

 

[jasoncran]

j: Well, I see.

Which aspect of the second coming do you mean? His coming for His church, to meet in the air (1 Thess. 4, etc.) or judgment on the earth (2 Peter 3.7, etc.).

theres isnt going to be a secret rapture then a judgment. if you notice in both accounts a ressurection being mentioned then a judgment.

@hitch, i have found a futurist site that says openly that the sinners will be those that church failed to reach in the millenium.what i dont get is how they were be grace and yet no wars in the millenium. like persons wont murder or conspire or be well sinners and strong willed. and some god goes from slow to wrath to quick wrath.

 

[Hitch]

(John 14:30) "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
(Eph 2:2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Who is the ruler of this world and the prince of the power of the air? if Christ is reigning over this earth, how can there be two rulers?

17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The One with all thepower is the ruler, but some doubt.

 

[Hitch]

theres isnt going to be a secret rapture then a judgment. if you notice in both accounts a ressurection being mentioned then a judgment.

@hitch, i have found a futurist site that says openly that the sinners will be those that church failed to reach in the millenium.what i dont get is how they were be grace and yet no wars in the millenium. like persons wont murder or conspire or be well sinners and strong willed. and some god goes from slow to wrath to quick wrath.

The contrivances to get Jesus sitting in Jerusalem can be amazing. But if you can flatly deny John 6; 39 anything is possible.

 

[Hitch]

I dont want to interfere with Jason's thread so I have 1 question I hope the Millennialist will seriously consider.

Jesus is bodily enthroned in Jerusalem, its seen allover the world by television and internet, just like you want.

Its obvious every one will want to have a minute of personal audience, certainly more folks will want to see him than do the pope.

If Jesus gives 1 minute per pilgrim per day how many can he see ,if he does nothing else at all?

No mater how you figure it he line will grow continuosly for 1,000 years.

 

[felix]

17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The One with all thepower is the ruler, but some doubt.

(Luke 4:6) And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for [this] has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

When devil said the above to Jesus, was God the Father have authority or not? This is not a question of sovereign nature of God. Now, Jesus Christ sits on the throne of His Father ruling His entire creations and the devil have still the same authority over this world, reporting to God as in Job 1:6.

 

[jasoncran]

not to mention that all them verses say that supposedly support the millenium mention a new earth and heaven and most chruches teach that the new earth is after the millenium!

 

[Hitch]

(Luke 4:6) And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for [this] has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

gee Felix Im with you because I know for sure the devil never ever tells a lie .

When devil said the above to Jesus, was God the Father have authority or not? This is not a question of sovereign nature of God. Now, Jesus Christ sits on the throne of His Father ruling His entire creations and the devil have still the same authority over this world, reporting to God as in Job 1:6.

Perhaps you missed an important event that is recorded later in Luke's book.

 

[felix]

(Luke 4:6) And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for [this] has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

gee Felix Im with you because I know for sure the devil never ever tells a lie .

While the devil can lie, He cannot lie to Christ for He knows everything, even the thoughts of the devil.

if you carefully look at what the devil says, the authority "has been delivered". However, if you look at Gen 1, the authoirty over the earth was originally given to man not the devil. In Isa 50:1, God says, through our iniquity, we sell ourselves. Sell what? ourselves. When we sell ourselves, we become slaves to devil and allow his rule. But Jesus came to redeem us from the rule of the devil to restore us the authority over the earth. This will happen when He comes again.

Perhaps you missed an important event that is recorded later in Luke's book.

I didn't miss it. You are ignoring it because, even before Christ is given all powers in heaven and earth, God the Father was already having it all the time. Now, Christ seated as the right hand of God, the devil is required to report to Christ who is seated at the throne of God. Christ is waiting for His marriage when He will be one with His children, after which He will put an end to all worldly authority by taking control of it Himself from the devil.

 

[jasoncran]

While the devil can lie, He cannot lie to Christ for He knows everything, even the thoughts of the devil.

if you carefully look at what the devil says, the authority "has been delivered". However, if you look at Gen 1, the authoirty over the earth was originally given to man not the devil. In Isa 50:1, God says, through our iniquity, we sell ourselves. Sell what? ourselves. When we sell ourselves, we become slaves to devil and allow his rule. But Jesus came to redeem us from the rule of the devil to restore us the authority over the earth. This will happen when He comes again.



I didn't miss it. You are ignoring it because, even before Christ is given all powers in heaven and earth, God the Father was already having it all the time. Now, Christ seated as the right hand of God, the devil is required to report to Christ who is seated at the throne of God. Christ is waiting for His marriage when He will be one with His children, after which He will put an end to all worldly authority by taking control of it Himself from the devil.

and leaves the sin curse, so its part redemption not a full comeback,one foot in heaven and the other on the earth. sorry that is in no wise what the bible says.