why modern premillenialism fails

[jasoncran]

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain (kingdom): for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea!" (Is.11:9 .) Since there's nothing that will hurt nor destroy, there will be no venomous insects or beasts or serpents or scorpions or any of those Devil's pests!--I think a lot of them will probably just be completely eliminated! But those that will still be here will become our pets!--Not pests! Even the once-deadly asps and vipers will almost be like toys for the children to play with!--No bite, no sting, no poison, no venom!
There will be no more thorns or thistles or any of the sort of thing that came after the Fall of man when God said the ground would be cursed and produce thorns and briars etc., to keep fallen man busy and out of trouble. (Gen.3:17-19 .) This, of course, will be a great blessing to the natural flesh-and-blood men of the Earth who are still going to till the land and build houses and marry and be given in marriage, etc. No doubt they will proclaim, "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other! Truth shall spring out of the Earth; and righteousness shall look down from Heaven. Yea, the Lord shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase!" (Ps.85:10-12 .)
What a wonderful place to live!--The curse will be removed, all viciousness gone, and all killing and hurting stopped! That's why I know that there aren't going to be any more cars there, no automobiles: "For nothing shall hurt nor destroy in all His holy mountain!"--Cars are one of the greatest destroyers of mankind today and kill more people than anything else.
The only forms of transportation that are going to be left will be the God-given, God-created, God-ordained ones--horses, camels, mules, wagons, etc.--which were good enough for the World for more than five thousand years before they ever heard of anything else! Most of the World lived in peace and plenty without all these God-damned, gasoline-powered, pollution-spouting, environment-hurting and life-destroying automobiles!
in the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ there won't be any of these stinking automobiles belching fumes anymore, or any of these big smokey smoke-belching factories! So they won't have to worry about oil anymore! They're not going to have all of this modern destructive machinery and smoke and oil and nuclear power and whatnot! The World is going to go back to animal transportation and carriages and wagons etc.! They'll sure appreciate the animals then! Perhaps for transporting heavy loads of raw materials, foods, etc., they'll go back to sailing vessels, powered by God's Own good clean winds and currents!
The world's going to go back to those beautiful days with only the beautiful creation of God around them and the wonderful creatures of God to help them plow and power and transport what little they have to supply their meager needs, even as the poor of the World still do to this very day in the most remote parts of the Earth!
In fact, today's poorer, so-called "under-developed" nations are going to be a lot better off! They're going to be the ones that will be ahead of things then, the Third World. They'll already have their beasts of burden and oxcarts and wagons, and even their sailboats! The Third World will hardly know that anything has even happened! Life is not going to change very much for them, except it's going to be better, because they won't be oppressed by the First and Second World anymore!--Everything's going to be much better! PTL!
There will also probably be much less disease, much less sickness, etc., because in Isaiah it says that if someone dies when he's 100 years old, he'll be considered merely a child! "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old." (Is.65:20 .)
Life is obviously again going to be lengthened to great longevity, as it was before the Flood, when men lived to be nearly a thousand years of age! If somebody died at the age of 100 you would have thought, "Poor fellow, just a babe!" And that's what it means in that Scripture, "for the child shall die an hundred years old."--In other words, anybody dying at 100 will be considered just a child!
The people over whom we rule will still be living in their natural physical bodies and will still be having children, still dying and so on. But because the curse will be removed and things will be so natural and it will be such a slower pace, they're going to live like they did before the Flood.--Everybody will live like Methuselah!--For a thousand years! (Gen.5:27 .) So the people who enter the Millennium alive are going to look like they're almost the same age at the end of the thousand years! They just won't seem to grow old anymore, or very little.--How wonderful! (Continued in part III)

 

[jasoncran]

It appears that the Millennium could be an additional period of grace for those who didn't have a chance to really hear the Gospel or really know the Lord during this life, perhaps even because of our own failure and the failure of the Church to reach the whole World with the Gospel, or at least to reach everybody we should have.--Particularly lots of children and young people who never had a chance and never knew any better, maybe lots of natives in the deepest jungles who never heard, or in the wildest wilderness--to give them a chance to hear and see and know the Lord!

@ hitch this is what i meant and that alone says to me that the futurist think very lowly of the cross! who controls the church? is our failure so bad that even God cant overide it? is he so weak that he cant use that or circumvent our failure and still reach the lost? i have learned when i least think that im a vessel i find out otherwise.

 

[Hitch]

@ hitch this is what i meant and that alone says to me that the futurist think very lowly of the cross! who controls the church? is our failure so bad that even God cant overide it? is he so weak that he cant use that or circumvent our failure and still reach the lost? i have learned when i least think that im a vessel i find out otherwise.

It appears that the Millennium could be an additional period of grace for those who didn't have a chance to really hear the Gospel or really know the Lord during this life, perhaps even because of our own failure and the failure of the Church to reach the whole World with the Gospel, or at least to reach everybody we should have.--Particularly lots of children and young people who never had a chance and never knew any better, maybe lots of natives in the deepest jungles who never heard, or in the wildest wilderness--to give them a chance to hear and see and know the Lord!

And you are correct. This is an outright rebellion against God's personally chosen and implemented system of reconciliation.

It shows even more drastically in DF as Chafer taught the 1,000 would be a return to judaism. Complete with bloody sacrifices.

 

[Hitch]

None.

Then you cant have the departed saints bodily present with Christ during the 1,000 years. Which I believe you said is your position, but Im not sure I remember correctly. It is the standard DF position.

 

[felix]

Felix,, When do you say is the resurrection?

There are two resurrections.

Tribulation => First resurrection (Rev 20:5) => 1000 yr reign => second resurrection (Rev 20:13a) => Judgment (Rev 20:13b)=> New Heavens and Earth.

 

[felix]

Then you cant have the departed saints bodily present with Christ during the 1,000 years. Which I believe you said is your position, but Im not sure I remember correctly. It is the standard DF position.

I want to be honest with you. The 1000 year reign is something that I don't understand very well as it is a bit contradicting.

Let me explain:
During the 1000 year reign, only the saints who were beheaded for Christ and had not received the mark of the beast lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years as in Rev 20:4.
However, after the 1000 years and before the second resurrection and the white throne judgement, the devil will be released and he will deceive nations. Since, second resurrection hasn't yet happened during the 1000 year reign and immediately after, I have two important questions:

1. During the 1000 year reign, who is Christ and the saints who are blessed to be a part of first resurrection ruling?
2. Who are the people being deceived by Satan immediately after the 1000 yr reign?

 

[Hitch]

I want to be honest with you. The 1000 year reign is something that I don't understand very well as it is a bit contradicting.

Let me explain:
During the 1000 year reign, only the saints who were beheaded for Christ and had not received the mark of the beast lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years as in Rev 20:4.
However, after the 1000 years and before the second resurrection and the white throne judgement, the devil will be released and he will deceive nations. Since, second resurrection hasn't yet happened during the 1000 year reign and immediately after, I have two important questions:

1. During the 1000 year reign, who is Christ and the saints who are blessed to be a part of first resurrection ruling?
2. Who are the people being deceived by Satan immediately after the 1000 yr reign?

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The believer today meets all the requirements of the definition.

He is 'blessed and made holy '(II cor 5;21) because he is a partner in the Resurrection of Christ.This is how we become joint -heirs.


Pete refers to the Church as;


1 Pet 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

John of course concurs; (note the tense)

Rev 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(KJV)

This 'priesthood' is entirely populated by those who 'overcome'. As Paul writes;


Rom 8:36-37
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
(KJV)


Conquerors and overcomers are translated from the same original word. Every christian is expected to be faithful even unto death, so being 'more than conquerors' is the status of all believers in Christ, whether events demonstrated this in life (martyerdom) or not. Every believer is passed from death unto life. And is securely covered under the Blood of Christ. This renders him free from the power of the 'second death' and allows him to' reign in life by one, Jesus Christ'.

Thus each requirement as lineated in v6 is already accomplished in the believer.

#2 There will be rebels to the last day.

 

[felix]

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The believer today meets all the requirements of the definition.

He is 'blessed and made holy '(II cor 5;21) because he is a partner in the Resurrection of Christ.This is how we become joint -heirs.


Pete refers to the Church as;


1 Pet 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

John of course concurs; (note the tense)

Rev 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(KJV)

This 'priesthood' is entirely populated by those who 'overcome'. As Paul writes;


Rom 8:36-37
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
(KJV)


Conquerors and overcomers are translated from the same original word. Every christian is expected to be faithful even unto death, so being 'more than conquerors' is the status of all believers in Christ, whether events demonstrated this in life (martyerdom) or not. Every believer is passed from death unto life. And is securely covered under the Blood of Christ. This renders him free from the power of the 'second death' and allows him to' reign in life by one, Jesus Christ'.

Thus each requirement as lineated in v6 is already accomplished in the believer.

True but, who are they ruling over?
To be clear, Satan does not exist during the 1000 yr reign and Christ Himself will rule and everything will be in perfect order. Even if there are rest of the people alive, they aren't rebels.

 

[Hitch]

There are two resurrections.

Tribulation => First resurrection (Rev 20:5) => 1000 yr reign => second resurrection (Rev 20:13a) => Judgment (Rev 20:13b)=> New Heavens and Earth.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You're half right. There are two resurrections but only one is physical . The First Resurrection is when the believer is converted ,passing from death unto life' those blessed with ears that hear.

The Last Day bodily resurrection is general and all (each and every) will respond like it or not.

 

[Hitch]

True but, who are they ruling over?
To be clear, Satan does not exist during the 1000 yr reign and Christ Himself will rule and everything will be in perfect order. Even if there are rest of the people alive, they aren't rebels.

Dont forget what Jesus said about his kingdom . Look again at Matthew 13, when are the wheat and the tares separated?

Who is being ruled ?

You and me. Every descion we make we come to the Lord in prayer and to the Scriptures to see what Moses or Paul taught us. Millions of believer search out and discuss what Paul wrote every day. How many ever care about anything Nero taught?

 

[felix]

You're half right. There are two resurrections but only one is physical . The First Resurrection is when the believer is converted ,passing from death unto life' those blessed with ears that hear.

The Last Day bodily resurrection is general and all (each and every) will respond like it or not.

No. Both are physical. What you say as 'passing from death unto life' is explained in a few verses below.

(John 5:29) "and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

1. first resurrection = passing from death unto life = resurrection of life
2. second resurrection = resurrection of condemnation

 

[Hitch]

No. Both are physical. What you say as 'passing from death unto life' is explained in a few verses below.

(John 5:29) "and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

1. first resurrection = passing from death unto life = resurrection of life
2. second resurrection = resurrection of condemnation

Not even close Felix,

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Clearly this is an even that began when Jesus walked on earth and continues to this day.

This is why Jonh writes ;

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Now you;re right about v 29.

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There are two groups, the good and the evil , but one resurrection . TAs you said earlier this is Judgement Day, the last day. After this event there are no years, there is eternity.

 

[felix]

Dont forget what Jesus said about his kingdom . Look again at Matthew 13, when are the wheat and the tares separated?

Who is being ruled ?

You and me. Every descion we make we come to the Lord in prayer and to the Scriptures to see what Moses or Paul taught us. Millions of believer search out and discuss what Paul wrote every day. How many ever care about anything Nero taught?

Are you saying that we are being ruled by Paul and Moses because we follow their teachings?

If that is the case, then you are greatly mistaken because they are not their teachings but Christ's. Neither do I want to follow Paul or Moses but only God and His Son, Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

 

[felix]

Not even close Felix,

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Clearly this is an even that began when Jesus walked on earth and continues to this day.

This is why Jonh writes ;

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

What are are referring is the born again experience or the new creation being born - not resurrection.

Scripture clearly refers as "First" resurrection by number. If there is only one resurrection, then Scripture would not have referred that way. Also, first resurrection is not for all believers.

(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of

1. those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
2. who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and
3. had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now you;re right about v 29.

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There are two groups, the good and the evil , but one resurrection . TAs you said earlier this is Judgement Day, the last day. After this event there are no years, there is eternity.

No, they are two resurrections because, Scripture itself mentions as 'First' only for the "resurrection of life". If it includes the "resurrection of condemnation", then Rev 20:6 terribly fails.

 

[felix]

May be I will be a bit more clearer.

passing from death to life = we receive eternal life [but our life is "hidden" in Christ]

(Col 3:3-4) For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ [who is] our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

It means, we will receive our life when Christ appears in His glory and we had to wait. This agrees with (Dan 12:2) which says, And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

First resurrection = people who overcame the great tribulation and was beheaded for Christ and His testimony [not all believers in Christ]

Second resurrection = all people ever lived will be raised and judged accordingly which includes even believers. This is where we have boldness in the day of Judgement as in 1John 4:17.

As I already said, I am happy to change my position but I want all verses to agree upon.

 

[jasoncran]

And you are correct. This is an outright rebellion against God's personally chosen and implemented system of reconciliation.

It shows even more drastically in DF as Chafer taught the 1,000 would be a return to judaism. Complete with bloody sacrifices.

send me that info, im debating this with messanic jews who think that im off.its funny they and those that agree say we ought to embrace the heritage of the hebrew roots and when i did then i saw what the cross was all about even more clearly!

 

[Hitch]

send me that info, im debating this with messanic jews who think that im off.its funny they and those that agree say we ought to embrace the heritage of the hebrew roots and when i did then i saw what the cross was all about even more clearly!

"the regathering of Israel and the restoration of Judaism "

L Chafer Dispensationalism p 413



D Pentecost devotes an entire chapter to millenial sacrifices in Things To Come , chapter heading Worship In the Millennium p 512-531

 

[Hitch]

Are you saying that we are being ruled by Paul and Moses because we follow their teachings?

If that is the case, then you are greatly mistaken because they are not their teachings but Christ's. Neither do I want to follow Paul or Moses but only God and His Son, Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

Dont be childish Felix. The Holy Spirit chose whos documents would be canonized ,not you.

 

[Hitch]

What are are referring is the born again experience or the new creation being born - not resurrection.

Scripture clearly refers as "First" resurrection by number. If there is only one resurrection, then Scripture would not have referred that way. Also, first resurrection is not for all believers.

(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of

well where are the resurrected bodies,why cant John see them ?

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now if youre going to be literal, where is earth mentioned ? And what about the 'souls' John sees?

No, they are two resurrections because, Scripture itself mentions as 'First' only for the "resurrection of life". If it includes the "resurrection of condemnation", then Rev 20:6 terribly fails.

Well you dont have to believe what Jesus said , but you 'll never get is straight that way .

 

[Hitch]

May be I will be a bit more clearer.

passing from death to life = we receive eternal life [but our life is "hidden" in Christ]

(Col 3:3-4) For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ [who is] our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

It means, we will receive our life when Christ appears in His glory and we had to wait. This agrees with (Dan 12:2) which says, And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

What is it about Jesus you dont like Felix?
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Thus the living believer has eternal life. Now .

First resurrection = people who overcame the great tribulation and was beheaded for Christ and His testimony [not all believers in Christ]

If your are now in Christ you were 'dead in sin' . If you are now in Christ you reign in this life. If you are now in Christ the Second Death has no power over you . If you are in Christ you are more than a conquorer (overcomer ) And if you are in Christ and you pass on NONE of this is lost, you will live in his presence , awaiting resurrection .

Second resurrection = all people ever lived will be raised and judged accordingly which includes even believers. This is where we have boldness in the day of Judgement as in 1John 4:17.

As I already said, I am happy to change my position but I want all verses to agree upon.

Back to Jesus , when did Jesus say the resurrection would take place?

Hint

John 6;39 -54 .