Why The Experts Disagree.

[Goldwing]

On all Christian Forums I focus on the topic of "End Time Events" as I believe it is my spiritual gift to understand them. Like me I'm sure many on this forum have read so many diverse opinions on any one prophecy and discover after following the thread for several post that there is always two or three strong opinionated individuals who get into back and forth argumentative posts, in which one mans opinion cancels out the others. So in the end readers are left with the belief that when it comes to understanding prophecy no one seems to know, so you get discourage in the study of "End Time Events" for yourself.

I once heard my associate pastor say the Revelation is so symbolic that no one can really understand it. At this point you can't possibly understand my shock since you haven't read the following "attachment", but if you do you will certainly understand it.

Why The Experts Disagree:
https://wake-up.org/bible-prophecy/...uired-to-understand-apocalyptic-prophecy.html

 

[Exeter]

I once heard my associate pastor say the Revelation is so symbolic that no one can really understand it.

I'm extremely wary of anyone who claims to completely understand Revelation in all its facets. Forums are full of experts who believe they have "cracked its code" or "unravelled its secret message". There is nothing wrong with having a favourite subject and if that is the Book of Revelation then by its own admonition it will be a blessing to you.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

 

[Goldwing]

Have you taken the time to visit the linked site and read, "Why The Experts Disagree"? What are your thoughts?

 

[Exeter]

Have you taken the time to visit the linked site and read, "Why The Experts Disagree"? What are your thoughts?

I have read the article. My thoughts are as stated earlier.

 

[for_his_glory]

I do not believe everyone is an expert in everything as there are always new things to learn as we could never exhaust the teachings in the Bible. What we thought we knew, another can bring a different light of truth that we did not see before. But what it all boils down to is that we need to be teachable, especially in disagreements as each of us has to search for truth on our own by allowing the Holy Spirit teach us without any of our own baggage.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

 

[Goldwing]

(I do not believe everyone is an expert in everything) as there are always new things to learn as we could never exhaust the teachings in the Bible. What we thought we knew, another can bring a different light of truth that we did not see before. But what it all boils down to is that we need to be teachable, especially in disagreements as each of us has to search for truth on our own by allowing the Holy Spirit teach us without any of our own baggage.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

I don't understand your reasoning for the statement above that I highlighted. The author doesn't claim to be an expert. He is explaining why theologians of different faiths, who are considered to be the most knowledgeable
on the prophecies, have different interpretations of the same prophecies. In the piece Mr. Wilson is sharing four hermeneutics that he had previous discovered over the course of several years. You yourself state "there are always new things to learn". "What we thought we knew, another can bring a different light of truth". This is exactly what Mr. Wilson is trying to do. As one who has taken the time to understand his discoveries and realize they are indeed the "present truth", the challenge with knowing "present truth", is finding individuals who are "teachable", as you yourself acknowledge we should be, but seem to be resistant. The discovery of the four hermeneutics, is the only means by which one can make the Bible it's own interpreter/speak for itself, overriding our individual biases and impediments, which he is making his readers aware of.

The laws of mathematics, the laws of gravity, are recognized the world over, therefore, there is worldwide unity because the world understands they are natural laws that govern their behavior. If christians recognized the four laws Mr. Wilson has discovered and applied them correctly as in dealing with math problems there would be unity, within our Christian communities instead of diversity, and this would edify the Bible teachings as Paul points out in (1Cor. 14:26)

As you understand the four hermeneutics he discovered, which ones do you think would not allow the Bible to speak for itself?

Example: rule one deals with chronology within each apocalyptic prophecy. It states events will happen in the order given, (and fulfilled prophecy as proven this every time, therefore it is a constant, therefore it must be a natural law) In all of your interpretations of Rev., have you given thought to chronology, and does your interpretation follow this rule?

A private interpretation, does not, but rather changes the chronology to fit ones bias. Which is why there are multiple interpretations. Does this sound reasonable to you?

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't understand your reasoning for the statement above that I highlighted. The author doesn't claim to be an expert. He is explaining why theologians of different faiths, who are considered to be the most knowledgeable
on the prophecies, have different interpretations of the same prophecies. In the piece Mr. Wilson is sharing four hermeneutics that he had previous discovered over the course of several years. You yourself state "there are always new things to learn". "What we thought we knew, another can bring a different light of truth". This is exactly what Mr. Wilson is trying to do. As one who has taken the time to understand his discoveries and realize they are indeed the "present truth", the challenge with knowing "present truth", is finding individuals who are "teachable", as you yourself acknowledge we should be, but seem to be resistant. The discovery of the four hermeneutics, is the only means by which one can make the Bible it's own interpreter/speak for itself, overriding our individual biases and impediments, which he is making his readers aware of.

The laws of mathematics, the laws of gravity, are recognized the world over, therefore, there is worldwide unity because the world understands they are natural laws that govern their behavior. If christians recognized the four laws Mr. Wilson has discovered and applied them correctly as in dealing with math problems there would be unity, within our Christian communities instead of diversity, and this would edify the Bible teachings as Paul points out in (1Cor. 14:26)

As you understand the four hermeneutics he discovered, which ones do you think would not allow the Bible to speak for itself?

Example: rule one deals with chronology within each apocalyptic prophecy. It states events will happen in the order given, (and fulfilled prophecy as proven this every time, therefore it is a constant, therefore it must be a natural law) In all of your interpretations of Rev., have you given thought to chronology, and does your interpretation follow this rule?

A private interpretation, does not, but rather changes the chronology to fit ones bias. Which is why there are multiple interpretations. Does this sound reasonable to you?

Sorry that statement confused you as I was actually agreeing to some of the points he made as allowing the Bible to interpret itself and how the chronology of end time events is very important to understand like the seven trumpets sounding as each event unfolds after the other and all that must come first before Christ returns on the last day. When studying the book of Revelation it takes the full context of the OT prophecies, history and culture of each era as we try to piece it all together.

It took me forty years to write my book on Revelation cross referencing OT with NT and so much history and foundation searching through the four different Empires Daniel wrote about. All I can give is my understanding of putting all this intense studying together, but never ask anyone to agree with me, but take the scriptures and history I give and study it for themselves apart from what everyone else is teaching.

 

[Exeter]

If christians recognized the four laws Mr. Wilson has discovered and applied them correctly as in dealing with math problems there would be unity, within our Christian communities instead of diversity, and this would edify the Bible teachings as Paul points out in (1Cor. 14:26)

What proof is there to substantiate any of this?

 

[Goldwing]

What proof is there to substantiate any of this?

Assuming you are referring to the four laws of interpretation, they are confirmed in all of the fulfilled Apocalyptic prophecies of Dan., and Rev. to date. If you have read these laws, ask yourself this question. If these laws are used to interpret apocalyptic prophecy will they force the Bible to speak for itself? I believe and have seen that they do. I say 8+8=16, someone else may disagreed and say thats just my opinion and that they think it = 15. You, like the rest of the world who understands the law of addition know its not my opinion, but a matter of fact, based on the proven law of addition. The four laws Mr. Wilson has discovered by God's grace, and His timing are a matter of proven fact and not his opinion. The beauty of know laws in any field of study once they are proven to be in fact a law[something that is consistent] is it creates unity with that field of study instead of private opinions, causing confusion. I'm sure you would agree that the prophecies God have us in Dan. and Rev., have only one correct interpretation. Do you not also agree that this same God must have implemented certain laws when He gave Daniel and John these prophecies, that when they should be discovered according to His timing, "at the time of the end", that those who are searching, with opened minds, could then discover their true meaning, since they could possibly experience there fulfillment?

 

[Goldwing]

When studying the book of Revelation it takes the full context of the OT prophecies,

I must certainly disagree. Sorry. Here's why. In doing as you have in your 40years of study you are mixing the prophecies under plan A, which was God's original plan, using Israel as His trustee of the Gospel and making them into a Kingdom of Priest. Had they been faithful in keeping their side of the bilateral covenant with God, God would have set up His kingdom as late as the end of the Seventy Weeks of Dan. 9. Which was the last of God's patience with Israel as a nation of trustee's. They failed again to meet the requirements spelled out (Dan. 9:24-27) Six hundred years earlier God have Daniel prophecy (plan B) that would come to pass under a unilateral covenant, God would make with mankind, should Israel fail to uphold there side of God's covenant with them. In your case and many other students of prophecy you are mixing prophecies of both plan A with Plan B. This leads to confusion and the interpretations are based on no proven hermeneutics, and are private interpretations, which makes all the prophecies into a nose of wax, meaning they can be altered to suit the expositor. Our creator nor the Bible promote confusion.

 

[for_his_glory]

I must certainly disagree. Sorry. Here's why. In doing as you have in your 40years of study you are mixing the prophecies under plan A, which was God's original plan, using Israel as His trustee of the Gospel and making them into a Kingdom of Priest. Had they been faithful in keeping their side of the bilateral covenant with God, God would have set up His kingdom as late as the end of the Seventy Weeks of Dan. 9. Which was the last of God's patience with Israel as a nation of trustee's. They failed again to meet the requirements spelled out (Dan. 9:24-27) Six hundred years earlier God have Daniel prophecy (plan B) that would come to pass under a unilateral covenant, God would make with mankind, should Israel fail to uphold there side of God's covenant with them. In your case and many other students of prophecy you are mixing prophecies of both plan A with Plan B. This leads to confusion and the interpretations are based on no proven hermeneutics, and are private interpretations, which makes all the prophecies into a nose of wax, meaning they can be altered to suit the expositor. Our creator nor the Bible promote confusion.

There are around 1239 prophecies in the OT and around 578 in the NT, but not all of them are about the end of days events, nor will everyone agree with each other no matter if they claim to be an expert or not.

Revelation was given to John in visions as prophecies that had their beginnings in the Old Testament, being fulfilled in the New Testament and yet much to be fulfilled in future events before the great and terrible day of the Lords return.

Revelations is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. Therefore, our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.​

 

[Goldwing]

Revelation was given to John in visions as prophecies that had their beginnings in the Old Testament, being fulfilled in the New Testament and yet much to be fulfilled in future events before the great and terrible day of the Lords return.

What prophecies in Rev., do you believe had their beginnings in the OT, and fulfilled in the New?

 

[Exeter]

What prophecies in Rev., do you believe had their beginnings in the OT, and fulfilled in the New?

If I may, Goldwing, numerous OT prophecies cross-references with the Book of Revelation, the whole of which is classed as Prophecy. Modern technology makes it easy to check them:

Here is the list, attributed to:
Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Th.M., Ph.D.
Founder and Director of Ariel Ministries.
Old Testament References in the Book of Revelation:

Revelation
1:1 Daniel 2:28-29
1:4 Isaiah 11:2
1:5 Genesis 49:11; Psalm 89:27
1:6 Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 61:6
1:7 Daniel 7:13; Zechariah 12:10-14
1:8 Isaiah 41:4
1:12 Exodus 25:37; 37:23
1:13 Daniel 7:13; 10:5, 16
1:14 Daniel 7:9; 10:6
1:15 Ezekiel 1:7, 24; 43:2; Daniel 10:6
1:16 Judges 5:31; Isaiah 49:2
1:17 Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12; Daniel 8:17-18;10:9, 10, 12, 15, 19
1:18 Job 3:17; Hosea 13:14
Revelation
2:4 Jeremiah 2:2
2:7 Genesis 2:9; 3:22-24; Proverbs 11:30; 13:12; Ezekiel 31:8 (LXX)
2:12 Isaiah 49:2
2:14 Numbers 25:1-3
2:17 Exodus 16:33-34; Isaiah 62:2; 65:15
2:18 Daniel 10:6
2:20 I Kings 16:31-32; II Kings 9:7, 22
2:23 Psalm 7:9; 26:2; 28:4; Jeremiah 11:20; 17:10
2:27 Psalm 2:7-9; Isaiah 30:14; Jeremiah 19:11
Revelation
3:4 Ecclesiastes 9:8
3:5 Exodus 32:32-33
3:7 Isaiah 22:22
3:9 Isaiah 43:4; 49:23; 60:14
3:12 Isaiah 62:2; Ezekiel 48:35
3:14 Genesis 49:3; Deuteronomy 21:17
3:18 Isaiah 55:1
3:19 Proverbs 3:1
(continued next post)

 

[Exeter]

Revelation
4:1 Ezekiel 1:1
4:2 Isaiah 6:1; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9
4:3 Ezekiel 1:26, 28; 10:1
4:5 Exodus 19:16; 25:37; Isaiah 11:2; Ezekiel 1:13
4:6 Ezekiel 1:5, 18, 22, 26; 10:1, 12
4:7 Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14
4:8 Isaiah 6:2-3; Ezekiel 1:18; 10:12
4:9 Deuteronomy 32:40; Daniel 4:34; 6:26; 12:7
4:11 Genesis 1:1
Revelation
5:1 Ezekiel 2:9-10; Daniel 12:4
5:5 Genesis 49:9-10; Isaiah 11:1, 10
5:6 Isaiah 11:2; Zechariah 3:8-9; 4:10
5:8 Psalm 111:2
5:9 Psalm 40:3; 98:1; 144:9; 149:1; Isaiah 42:10; Daniel 5:19
5:10 Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 61:6
5:11 Daniel 7:10
Revelation
6:2 Zechariah 1:8; 6:3
6:4 Zechariah 1:8; 6:2
6:5 Zechariah 6:2
6:8 Jeremiah 15:2-3; 24:10; 29:17; Ezekiel 14:21; Hosea 13:14; Zechariah 6:3
6:12 Isaiah 50:3; Joel 2:10
6:13 Isaiah 34:4
6:14 Isaiah 34:4; Nahum 1:5
6:15 Psalm 48:4-6; Isaiah 2:10-12, 19
6:16 Hosea 10:8
6:17 Psalm 76:7; Jeremiah 30:7; Nahum 1:6; Zephaniah 1:14-18; Malachi 3:2
Revelation
7:1 Isaiah 11:2; Jeremiah 49:36; Ezekiel 7:2; 37:9; Daniel 7:2; Zechariah 6:5
7:3 Ezekiel 9:4-6
7:4 Genesis 49:1-28
7:9 Leviticus 23:40
7:10 Psalm 3:8
7:14 Genesis 49:11
7:15 Leviticus 26:11
7:16 Psalm 121:5-6; Isaiah 49:10
7:17 Psalm 23:1-2; Ezekiel 34:23
(See full list at this link: OT Cross-References in Revelation)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There are around 1239 prophecies in the OT and around 578 in the NT, but not all of them are about the end of days events, nor will everyone agree with each other no matter if they claim to be an expert or not.

Revelation was given to John in visions as prophecies that had their beginnings in the Old Testament, being fulfilled in the New Testament and yet much to be fulfilled in future events before the great and terrible day of the Lords return.

Revelations is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. Therefore, our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.​

It’s pretty nice to have just the great day of Christ’s return before me minus the terrible part.

If Jerusalem is God’s holy city, why did He let it be leveled and plowed under?

 

[eddif]

The laws of mathematics, the laws of gravity, are recognized the world over, therefore, there is worldwide unity because the world understands they are natural laws that govern their behavior. If christians recognized the four laws Mr. Wilson has discovered and applied them correctly as in dealing with math problems there would be unity, within our Christian communities instead of diversity, and this would edify the Bible teachings as Paul points out in (1Cor. 14:26)

2 kings 6:5 kjv
5. But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
6. And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.

This passage violates the laws of gravity and bouyancy.
It does not violate the compassion laws toward humanity.
The miracles of Jesus are more toward love, compassion, understanding than science. Calling forth Lazarus from the dead after decay. After decay violates science.

The God that created time can turn back time.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

2 kings 6:5 kjv
5. But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
6. And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.

This passage violates the laws of gravity and bouyancy.
It does not violate the compassion laws toward humanity.
The miracles of Jesus are more toward love, compassion, understanding than science. Calling forth Lazarus from the dead after decay. After decay violates science.

The God that created time can turn back time.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

When did God ever turn time back?

 

[eddif]

When did God ever turn time back?

Isaiah 38:5 kjv
5. Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
6. And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria: and I will defend this city.
7. And this shall be a sign unto thee from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing that he hath spoken;
8. Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

That do?

Time stoped
Joshua 10:13 kjv
13. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Isaiah 38:5 kjv
5. Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
6. And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria: and I will defend this city.
7. And this shall be a sign unto thee from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing that he hath spoken;
8. Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

That do?

Time stoped
Joshua 10:13 kjv
13. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

eddif

No. The sundial turned back. That’s it. No report of time and events themselves moving backwards…(babies being born returned to the uterus, horses going forward suddenly started going backwards, people eating started bringing up the food unchewed, etc.

The sun stood still. No human events went backwards.

No, that does not quality.

 

[eddif]

No. The sundial turned back. That’s it. No report of time and events themselves moving backwards…(babies being born returned to the uterus, horses going forward suddenly started going backwards, people eating started bringing up the food unchewed, etc.

The sun stood still. No human events went backwards.

No, that does not quality.LOL time stopped was an added comment.

The clock we operate under was made on day 4 of creation.

Time as standing still was just an added comment.

eddif