Why The Experts Disagree.

[Dorothy Mae]

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

This present heaven and earth will be renewed in order for the New Jerusalem to be established here on earth.

Why do you think there will be therefore no science?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Isaiah 38:8 kjv
8. Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Two witnesses he sees the sundial and he sees the sun position change in the sky.
Deuteronomy 19:15 kjv
15. One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Here is an example of a concept in different context areas (2 witnesses).
1 Timothy 5:17 kjv
17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

eddif

. Doesn’t mean human activity went into reverse. It wasn’t Groundhog day in a few minutes.

I guess my problem is saying God reverses time. For particular reasons he twice extended or changed the length of sunlight. People observing stayed in the time they were in. They didn’t stop growing or aging or even had any of that reversed. The sun shines activity was affected. That’s it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Metaphysics is something beyond the physical.
Parable of sower:
Seed is Word of God , ground is mens hearts.

The seed exists. The spiritual Word exists, and is related, but on a higher level. (PaRDeS)

Metaphor is kind of similar, but dine mostly with words. I would think some metaphor are serious concepts.

eddif

Hebrew metaphors communicate matters that will happen in time and space (the physical) to real people but not as described literally. Jesus said he was going to judge Jerusalem and metaphors were used to describe this.

 

[eddif]

Hebrew metaphors communicate matters that will happen in time and space (the physical) to real people but not as described literally. Jesus said he was going to judge Jerusalem and metaphors were used to describe this.

if you want hard fast answers here, you are going to have to get those answers from God.

The Jew and Gentile are made into one new man. So I think this new Jerusalem is taking the place if the old Jerusalem.

Heavens and earth gone in fire.
No more sea
God present

All the physical of today seems to be Gone.

The physical of the New Jerusalem seems pretty much undefined by our present science. No sun or moon ( Jesus is the light).

No stars to define position.

Our time is defined by the cosmos of day 4 of creation. Days seasons night day have some new description when time is no more.

Street of transparent gold?

What is the gravity index of this new Jerusalem?

God has been preparing a place for us, but the things he defines are outside our comprehension.

I just trust Gods designing ability. eddif was not asked to be involved with the first earth and it seems my services are not needed for the coming one.

Is hell like a black hole ( which is not described in the Bible)?

God has the plan.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Moving the sun dial backwards doesn’t mean time and all human activity rewound. What we know is the sun dial moved backwards. That is it. There is a problem with literally thinking he saw the sun move backwards and that is man cannot look at the sun directly, too strong. But I won’t press that point. In any case he didn’t see human activity reversed and start again. That is what time going backwards means.

At high noon you can’t look at egghead sun. What about near sundown?

Have you actually read day four to see how time came about?

Psalms 8:3 kjv
3. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

The why is in day 4

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

At high noon you can’t look at egghead sun. What about near sundown?

Have you actually read day four to see how time came about?

Psalms 8:3 kjv
3. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

The why is in day 4

eddif

Have you actually read Isaiah 38? The shadow on the steps retreated 10 steps. That’s it. Time didn’t go backwards. The earth didn’t stop and revolve the other direction. The shadow on the steps retreated. No one looked at the sun at all.

 

[Goldwing]

I am an exponent of Systematic Biblical Theology so I have the whole body of material covering all the Books of the Bible at my disposal and have acquainted myself with much that pertains to the Book of Revelation. I make a point of asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in all that I study and discuss, and the Spirit has led me to understand that some of the things of God are beyond human comprehension.

The Seven Sealed Scroll has been opened. John saw it opened and wrote about what he saw which is what God intended for him to do so that we could know what lies ahead. In one sense the Book of Revelation is like a department store in that if you go to it regularly you learn where everything is, and you get a feel for the layout so that you know what you will find in each different section, often with the help of a numbered store plan.

Bible-believers know that God communicates through visions and dreams, and discussions of these visions and dreams involve much examination of their symbolic imagery.

Will any of us ever actually get to see Jesus as the Lamb as John did in his vision? We see such metaphorical things in our minds, and accept them in our spirit as God intends, so if God wants us to see and be in the presence of Jesus as the Lamb of God He will make it so.

That's all for now. I would like to come back to the other points raised, but sufficient to say that we know from the opening of the Seven Seals that Conquest, Conflict, Commodities, Carnage, Complaint, Catastrophe, & Clarion are integral to the Perfect Completion of the Divine Plan.

Appreciate your response. Will postpone any comment until you post further post on my earlier questions.

 

[eddif]

Have you actually read Isaiah 38? The shadow on the steps retreated 10 steps. That’s it. Time didn’t go backwards. The earth didn’t stop and revolve the other direction. The shadow on the steps retreated. No one looked at the sun at all.

Isaiah 38:8 kjv
8. Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

A. Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward.
So
B. the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

The sundial registered 10 degrees backward.
The sun returned 10 degrees ( it was gone down)

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Isaiah 38:8 kjv
8. Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

A. Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward.
So
B. the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

The sundial registered 10 degrees backward.
The sun returned 10 degrees ( it was gone down)

eddif

the prophet Isaiah called on the LORD, and the LORD made the shadow go back the ten steps it had gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.

Still just the shadow moved, not time. No one actually said time goes backwards, just the shadow.

 

[for_his_glory]

Moving the sun dial backwards doesn’t mean time and all human activity rewound. What we know is the sun dial moved backwards. That is it. There is a problem with literally thinking he saw the sun move backwards and that is man cannot look at the sun directly, too strong. But I won’t press that point. In any case he didn’t see human activity reversed and start again. That is what time going backwards means.

We can not witness or testify of things we do not understand. God said He moved time back, made time stand still and I will take His word for it. None of us could understand what that would have caused in the natural events of others and only leads to speculations. Can any of us truly understand the supernatural of the Spiritual realm of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why do you think there will be therefore no science?

I never said there would be no more science. Science is in the supernatural realm of God in all His creation and that which will be burned up and made new gain.

Science proves there is a God of creation and science disproves the creation of God. It will make no difference within the New Jerusalem.

 

[for_his_glory]

. Doesn’t mean human activity went into reverse. It wasn’t Groundhog day in a few minutes.

I guess my problem is saying God reverses time. For particular reasons he twice extended or changed the length of sunlight. People observing stayed in the time they were in. They didn’t stop growing or aging or even had any of that reversed. The sun shines activity was affected. That’s it.

There are certain things that our logical minds can not understand. This is all pretty much pointless as there is no natural reasoning so we should move pass this.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We can not witness or testify of things we do not understand. God said He moved time back, made time stand still and I will take His word for it. None of us could understand what that would have caused in the natural events of others and only leads to speculations. Can any of us truly understand the supernatural of the Spiritual realm of God.

No, He moved back the shadow. Please find where he says he moves back time. This is only inferred. I am taking the account as written no additions. He moved back the shadow, that’s it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I never said there would be no more science. Science is in the supernatural realm of God in all His creation and that which will be burned up and made new gain.

Science proves there is a God of creation and science disproves the creation of God. It will make no difference within the New Jerusalem.

You don’t work in science, am I right? Science is not in the supernatural. Science will not be burned up. One can burn down a library but it doesn’t mean there are therefore no books.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Isaiah 38:8 kjv
8. Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Two witnesses he sees the sundial and he sees the sun position change in the sky.
Deuteronomy 19:15 kjv
15. One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Here is an example of a concept in different context areas (2 witnesses).
1 Timothy 5:17 kjv
17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

eddif

One can look at a sundial. One cannot look directly at the sun to see which direction it moves

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There are certain things that our logical minds can not understand. This is all pretty much pointless as there is no natural reasoning so we should move pass this.

I agree on moving past. I will tell you some wise men wrote “it is the glory of kings to search out a matter.”

 

[Exeter]

Do you understand when in time the courtroom scene in chapters 4&5 took place in heaven?

Do you understand why the Father wrote the book sealed with seven seals at the foundation of the world?

Do you understand the responsibility the Father placed on Jesus after the moment He(Jesus) was found worthy to receive the book and to open it's seals?

Do you understand at what point in time Jesus opened the first Seal?

Hi again, Goldwing.

I'm not asking for agreement from you or anyone so I hope my thinking doesn't upset those who have a different view of John's vision.

I don't believe anyone can attach a specific date to the courtroom scene, or the opening of the seals.

I have come to see the Seven Sealed Scroll as a Divine Deed of Destiny. The spiritual conceptualisation is of a legal document that exists to establish the evidence and authority from which various Divine Rights and Judgments proceed. We only become aware of this Seven Sealed Scroll because John is given a vision of it so that we can know what is in it.

It is God's Will that all the things in Revelation be disclosed to His People, which is why John was given the vision and instructed to write it down, no mean feat for him to do, but he is obviously aided by the Holy Spirit.

Just as Genesis speaks of beginnings, so Revelation speaks of endings, and both of them make it abundantly clear that from beginning to ending God deals righteously, justly, and mysteriously with His Creation.

Just as no-one can determine when in Eternity God spoke the Universe into being, I don't believe anyone with a worldly timeline can exactly pinpoint when the contents of the Scrolls manifest, but rather we can observe similarities to world events and predict that they will accummulate and come to a climax, ultimately as disclosed in the Book of Revelation.

 

[eddif]

I don't believe anyone can attach a specific date to the courtroom scene, or the opening of the seals

2 Corinthians 12:14 kjv
14. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Any chance that this statement could be attached to Revelation chapter 4?

The throne in heaven, really closely fits (IMHO) the hidden man of the heart in human anatomy.

If you wish not to comment that is ok.

eddif

 

[Exeter]

2 Corinthians 12:14 kjv
14. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Any chance that this statement could be attached to Revelation chapter 4?

The throne in heaven, really closely fits (IMHO) the hidden man of the heart in human anatomy.

If you wish not to comment that is ok.

eddif

There is quite a time period between the two events but they are often cross-referenced.

I believe Paul is talking about himself in this way to deflect criticism of boasting.

He is not sure whether he was caught up physically or in the Spirit, but John has no doubt that he was in the Spirit.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1-2 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." (2) Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is quite a time period between the two events but they are often cross-referenced.

I believe Paul is talking about himself in this way to deflect criticism of boasting.

He is not sure whether he was caught up physically or in the Spirit, but John has no doubt that he was in the Spirit.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1-2 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." (2) Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

I agree except the motive for Paul’s motive. Paul had little to no fear of man and so wasn’t afraid of being accused by man of boasting. He had a great deal of the fear of the Lord and didn’t want to boast as that is something God disapproves of. He knew he would give an answer to Jesus one day for the deeds done in the body.