Why The Experts Disagree.

[Goldwing]

He excludes the possibility that parts of apocalyptic prophecy can be fulfilled at one time, and the rest at another. Furthermore,

If you were to read any of the many books authored by L. Wilson you would find that not to be true. For instance, in Dan. 2, the prophecy of the Golden Image. It spans the time from from king Nebuchadenzzar to the return of Christ (the rock). Events of that prophecy have been fulfilled in the past twenty six centuries, and the rises of the ten toes kingdom and it being destroyed by the rock is yet future. Nonetheless, each event will come to pass in the chronological order as God laid them out in His prophecy. Fulfilled apocalyptic prophecy proves this to be true in all cases. Therefore, this must be a natural law, observed and proven by anyone who cares to investigate its legitimacy. Nobody makes up a natural law, it is only observed by individuals doing study in various fields of study. Once observed they write out the law in there own words.

 

[Goldwing]

(b) is obviously sometimes true. However, it is peculiar for him to make up a rule saying that any time a day has a metaphorical meaning, it must refer to a year, and that it could have no other metaphorical meaning. By the way, the "day of the Lord" refers to an unspecified time period, and sometimes even the church age (Christ's death up to Christ's return), not just either to a literal day or a literal year

The hermeneutic for interpreting time within apocalyptic prophecy has to do with enumerated time, such as the time, times and half a time (1260 yrs.) time period of Dan.7:25, seventy weeks in chapter nine, 1290, and the 1335 days of chapter 12, vss. 11 and 12. And the enumerated time periods found within the prophecies of Rev. This in now way applies to the term " The Day of The Lord".

I encourage you to go to

Revelations is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned,

I agree with your first sentence, but where is Israel mentioned in any of the twelve prophecies in Rev. Rev. covers the seals, the trumpets judgements, the two witness, the rise of Babylon, the seven bowls, the second coming, the Day of The Lord, earth purified, and the New Heaven and earth.

The only prophecy mentioning Israel, is the selection of the 144,000 sevants/prophets who will speak for God during the tribulation. (Rev. 7:3,4; 10:7;14:1-5) The twelve tribes of Israel spoken of within this prophecy since it is yet future is the redefined Israel of the New Covenant, not the biological descendants of Abraham, as you understand it, and why your focus on Israel is irrelevant. See (Rm. 2:28,29; Gal. 3:28,29; 5:6) The 144.000 will be believers in Christ from all cultures, races, and religions of the world. Christ will know their hearts even through their minds may not be up to speed, and give them a opportunity to speak the words He wants them to speak. God choosing Paul, while persecuting early Christians is an example. Paul's heart was right but is mind was not.

 

[eddif]

God choosing Paul, while persecuting early Christians is an example. Paul's heart was right but is mind was not.

Romans 7:21 kjv
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ephesians 4:23 kjv
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Hebrews 10:16 kjv
16. Ag This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Psalms 42:1 kjv
1. To the chief Musician, Maschil, for the sons of Korah. As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

Psalms 21:2 kjv
2. Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.

Romans 7:18 kjv
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Romans 7:21 kjv
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ephesians 4:23 kjv
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Hebrews 10:16 kjv
16. Ag This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Psalms 42:1 kjv
1. To the chief Musician, Maschil, for the sons of Korah. As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

Psalms 21:2 kjv
2. Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.

Romans 7:18 kjv
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

eddif

Replying to my own post.
So
What are the two major needs of man ?
Carnal mind change
Deceitful heart change

Hebrews 10:16 kjv
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Heart of stone gets - heart of flesh
Carnal mind gets - mind of Christ Jesus

Why do experts disagree ?

Instead of recognizing the two areas of need they choose one or the other.
Flesh is looked over by heart
Mind is looked over by spirit.

Well eddif it does not say that. Not exactly. If you look at the natural pacemaker you can see the symbolic control of the heart
( crucified Jesus). If you look at the cerebellum you can see the arriving New Jerusalem symbols. Romans 1:20
Until you see the need oh law in heart and mind you just argue with the other person.

Heart of stone becomes heart of flesh
Carnal mind becomes mind of Christ

The seed is the Word of God become flesh / Jesus.
Not written in stone but more spiritual.

The ground is mens hearts not stony but broken and contrite.

Paul recognized two areas of who he was. His statements were not from two periods of his life (IMHO), but based on Hebrews 10:16

Since this is the lounge, look at this post openly.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree with your first sentence, but where is Israel mentioned in any of the twelve prophecies in Rev. Rev. covers the seals, the trumpets judgements, the two witness, the rise of Babylon, the seven bowls, the second coming, the Day of The Lord, earth purified, and the New Heaven and earth.

The only prophecy mentioning Israel, is the selection of the 144,000 sevants/prophets who will speak for God during the tribulation. (Rev. 7:3,4; 10:7;14:1-5) The twelve tribes of Israel spoken of within this prophecy since it is yet future is the redefined Israel of the New Covenant, not the biological descendants of Abraham, as you understand it, and why your focus on Israel is irrelevant. See (Rm. 2:28,29; Gal. 3:28,29; 5:6) The 144.000 will be believers in Christ from all cultures, races, and religions of the world. Christ will know their hearts even through their minds may not be up to speed, and give them a opportunity to speak the words He wants them to speak. God choosing Paul, while persecuting early Christians is an example. Paul's heart was right but is mind was not.

Before I answer the rest of your post can you tell me what you mean by the twelve prophecies of Revelation and what they are?

 

[Goldwing]

It is God's Will that all the things in Revelation be disclosed to His People, which is why John was given the vision and instructed to write it down,

I agree. It is also true that some people are more interested in understanding what God has revealed in Rev. than others. Therefore, they dig deeper into study to find the gems of truth buried beneath the surface. And the Holy spirit is eager to guide them into greater light.

I believe the courtroom scene recorded in Rev. 4 & 5 actually took place in the past, and in heaven.

That being fact, it therefore stands to reason when it did, it would have to be time stamped. (Example: you and I were born. That day was time stamped and in this case is know as our birthdays.) This is also true of events taking place in heaven. This makes sense to many individuals, therefore, we reason, well when did this courtroom event take place?

There is no mention of timing within Rev. 4&5. However, experienced students of Dan. and Rev. understand that God designed a method by which many prophecies are repeated and enlarged by giving more detail. It short its called "repetition and enlargement". It's by this means we can find the timing of the courtroom scene of Rev. 4&5. Daniel also was shown the same event six hundred yrs. earlier than John. It's recorded in chapter 7, here the event is preceded by the rise of the "Little Horn", which grew up amongst the ten horns/ ten ethnic Kings that would rise up within the Rome empire. As the "Little Horn" grew in power it uprooted three of those kings. History confirms those kingdoms were the Heruli, Ostrogoths, and Vandals. (Dan. 7:24)

The "Little Horn" then becomes the eighth horn rising out of the fourth beast (Roman Empire) represents the
Roman Catholic Church. Its leaders will falsely think that they can usurp God's sovereign authority. The special authority Justinian granted to the church will establish a church/state precedent which the church will use to persecute those who refuse to obey its doctrines. Wielding absolute authority over Christians in Europe for 1260 years. During it's rain the church will change the day of worship which God has plainly declared to be the seventh day of the week.

The next chronological event following the rise of the "Little Horn" is the courtroom event, which Daniel describes having many similarities to what John saw. Both were show the same event. According to prophecy and historical dating, we can know that the courtroom event in heaven was 1798, because God intentionally tied it to the fall of papacy in 1798, which marks the end of the 1260 years, 538-1798 (See Dan.7:25,26). God is so transparent, and allows us to know His plans if we are willing to open our minds to progressive truth. There are other prophecies within Rev., as well where heavenly events are aligned with earthly events. God has purposely orchestrated this so that students of prophecy even though they cannot see into heaven, they can know that when certain earthly events come to pass, that at the same time heavenly events are taking place.

Let me end this post by reiterating the importance of rule #1, as explained in my original post starting this thread, "Why The Experts Disagree". History bears witness that in all cases ,that the chronology given within each apocalyptic prophecy has come to pass in the order given. Any interpretation that changes the order of events is a private interpretation. Meaning it does not conform to God's natural laws, within these prophecies.













I

 

[eddif]

I agree. It is also true that some people are more interested in understanding what God has revealed in Rev. than others. Therefore, they dig deeper into study to find the gems of truth buried beneath the surface. And the Holy spirit is eager to guide them into greater light.

I believe the courtroom scene recorded in Rev. 4 & 5 actually took place in the past, and in heaven.

That being fact, it therefore stands to reason when it did, it would have to be time stamped. (Example: you and I were born. That day was time stamped and in this case is know as our birthdays.) This is also true of events taking place in heaven. This makes sense to many individuals, therefore, we reason, well when did this courtroom event take place?

There is no mention of timing within Rev. 4&5. However, experienced students of Dan. and Rev. understand that God designed a method by which many prophecies are repeated and enlarged by giving more detail. It short its called "repetition and enlargement". It's by this means we can find the timing of the courtroom scene of Rev. 4&5. Daniel also was shown the same event six hundred yrs. earlier than John. It's recorded in chapter 7, here the event is preceded by the rise of the "Little Horn", which grew up amongst the ten horns/ ten ethnic Kings that would rise up within the Rome empire. As the "Little Horn" grew in power it uprooted three of those kings. History confirms those kingdoms were the Heruli, Ostrogoths, and Vandals. (Dan. 7:24)

The "Little Horn" then becomes the eighth horn rising out of the fourth beast (Roman Empire) represents the
Roman Catholic Church. Its leaders will falsely think that they can usurp God's sovereign authority. The special authority Justinian granted to the church will establish a church/state precedent which the church will use to persecute those who refuse to obey its doctrines. Wielding absolute authority over Christians in Europe for 1260 years. During it's rain the church will change the day of worship which God has plainly declared to be the seventh day of the week.

The next chronological event following the rise of the "Little Horn" is the courtroom event, which Daniel describes having many similarities to what John saw. Both were show the same event. According to prophecy and historical dating, we can know that the courtroom event in heaven was 1798, because God intentionally tied it to the fall of papacy in 1798, which marks the end of the 1260 years, 538-1798 (See Dan.7:25,26). God is so transparent, and allows us to know His plans if we are willing to open our minds to progressive truth. There are other prophecies within Rev., as well where heavenly events are aligned with earthly events. God has purposely orchestrated this so that students of prophecy even though they cannot see into heaven, they can know that when certain earthly events come to pass, that at the same time heavenly events are taking place.

Let me end this post by reiterating the importance of rule #1, as explained in my original post starting this thread, "Why The Experts Disagree". History bears witness that in all cases ,that the chronology given within each apocalyptic prophecy has come to pass in the order given. Any interpretation that changes the order of events is a private interpretation. Meaning it does not conform to God's natural laws, within these prophecies.













I

Ok I think I have heard WUAS
May I make some comments?

Luke 16:16 kjv
16. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 17:21 kjv
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 3:20 kjv
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 4:1 kjv
1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 Corinthians 12:2 kjv (IMHO time stamp)
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Matthew 16:19 kjv
19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Revelation 21:2 kjv
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Coming down, and not fully arrived. In the last days the New Jerusalem will be fully come.When is a first view / thought of a new Jerusalem start?
Hebrews 11:8 kjv
8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

When Jesus taught the Beatitudes in Matthew 5-7 the more concrete aspect of the law changed to internal abstract thoughts.

I see the Born Again experience starting with the Quickening Spirit of Jesus, and The Holy Spirit descending from heaven. The kingdom / New Jerusalem IMHO will be completed at the end times. The start of the descent is the placing of the law in our hearts and minds.

Ezekiel 47:12 kjv
12. And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Revelation:21:2 kjv
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 22:1 kjv
1. And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

IMHO the cerebellum ( if you do a midsection dissection ) looks like a tree on either side of a river of clear spinal fluid. Near all the abstract thoughts of the New Jerusalem.


Of course i have other scriptures about Romans 1:20

Mississippi Redneck
eddif

 

[tim-from-pa]

On all Christian Forums I focus on the topic of "End Time Events" as I believe it is my spiritual gift to understand them. Like me I'm sure many on this forum have read so many diverse opinions on any one prophecy and discover after following the thread for several post that there is always two or three strong opinionated individuals who get into back and forth argumentative posts, in which one mans opinion cancels out the others. So in the end readers are left with the belief that when it comes to understanding prophecy no one seems to know, so you get discourage in the study of "End Time Events" for yourself.

I once heard my associate pastor say the Revelation is so symbolic that no one can really understand it. At this point you can't possibly understand my shock since you haven't read the following "attachment", but if you do you will certainly understand it.

Why The Experts Disagree:
https://wake-up.org/bible-prophecy/...uired-to-understand-apocalyptic-prophecy.html

That's a very good article for a "Sir Isaac Newton" type of guy that I am (I liked the math teacher parable) as he also considered carefully the book of Daniel, Revelation, and the timing sequence e.g. a day to a year or otherwise literally. I have found that there seems to be cases where BOTH apply in that prophecy has double fulfillment. In the case of Israel's 7 times punishment for example, that's a literal 7 years but also a long one of 2520 years as from the time Israel (part of the northern Kingdom) was taken captive to 2520 years later when they the punishment is up was in the 1776-1781 (Battle of Yorktown) time frame and we were free again. The same could be said of the Jews when they returned to the land of Israel. There would also be a literal 7 years (short fulfillment) during the time of the end before Christ's return. I noticed he mentioned the USA as a place in the wilderness for the woman and notice prophecy stated they would find grace in the wilderness (i.e. the house of Israel would embrace Christianity) while the Jews kept OT Torah.

Anyway, back to the timing. As we differ over biblical interpretation and prophecy, I never thought this was possible but there's even disagreements on how to keep a calendar. I would think something that scientifically straightforward would be a non-issue, but as the math teach parable went, sadly it is. Some Christian groups (e.g. Churches of God) have been keeping a biblical calendar and I noticed more and more Christians are seeing the worth in it. Unfortunately, what started as a open-minded way of interpreting God's Word by letting it interpret itself has become convoluted into praise of the founders and traditions where more learning and revelations are no longer tolerated. I feel sorry for an astronomer in such a congregation who has to bow his head in humility when those in leadership who do not know a synodic month from a sidereal month but are going to tell him how to keep a calendar despite him knowing better. They even argue amongst themselves who is right about a simple observation. So yes, if the devil himself can't get us arguing about interpretation, he will even make us attack each other on the obvious, fact based things. In the worldly realm, the supposed inability to tell a man from a woman proves my point. It's getting ridiculous.

At the end of the article, he had a link to further look into "rule 4" which I would have loved to look at, but I got a broken link 404 error. That is too bad. Rule 4 of course talks about the times that I was just mentioning. Thanks for sharing this, though.

 

[Goldwing]

Before I answer the rest of your post can you tell me what you mean by the twelve prophecies of Revelation and what they are?

There are many prophecies in Rev., as most people know. But they don't know how many. That number is twelve. How many do you think there are? In my earlier post I listed what they are about.

 

[for_his_glory]

Goldwing

Old Testament References in the Book of Revelation by Chapters

1:1 Daniel 2:28-29
1:4 Isaiah 11:2
1:5 Genesis 49:11; Psalm 89:27
1:6 Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 61:6
1:7 Daniel 7:13; Zechariah 12:10-14
1:8 Isaiah 41:4
1:12 Exodus 25:37; 37:23
1:13 Daniel 7:13; 10:5, 16
1:14 Daniel 7:9; 10:6
1:15 Ezekiel 1:7, 24; 43:2; Daniel 10:6
1:16 Judges 5:31; Isaiah 49:2
1:17 Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12; Daniel 8:17-18;10:9, 10, 12, 15, 19
1:18 Job 3:17; Hosea 13:14

2:4 Jeremiah 2:2
2:7 Genesis 2:9; 3:22-24; Proverbs 11:30; 13:12; Ezekiel 31:8 (LXX)
2:12 Isaiah 49:2
2:14 Numbers 25:1-3
2:17 Exodus 16:33-34; Isaiah 62:2; 65:15
2:18 Daniel 10:6
2:20 I Kings 16:31-32; II Kings 9:7, 22
2:23 Psalm 7:9; 26:2; 28:4; Jeremiah 11:20; 17:10
2:27 Psalm 2:7-9; Isaiah 30:14; Jeremiah 19:11

3:4 Ecclesiastes 9:8
3:5 Exodus 32:32-33
3:7 Isaiah 22:22
3:9 Isaiah 43:4; 49:23; 60:14
3:12 Isaiah 62:2; Ezekiel 48:35
3:14 Genesis 49:3; Deuteronomy 21:17
3:18 Isaiah 55:1
3:19 Proverbs 3:1

4:1 Ezekiel 1:1
4:2 Isaiah 6:1; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9
4:3 Ezekiel 1:26, 28; 10:1
4:5 Exodus 19:16; 25:37; Isaiah 11:2; Ezekiel 1:13
4:6 Ezekiel 1:5, 18, 22, 26; 10:1, 12
4:7 Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14
4:8 Isaiah 6:2-3; Ezekiel 1:18; 10:12
4:9 Deuteronomy 32:40; Daniel 4:34; 6:26; 12:7
4:11 Genesis 1:1

5:1 Ezekiel 2:9-10; Daniel 12:4
5:5 Genesis 49:9-10; Isaiah 11:1, 10
5:6 Isaiah 11:2; Zechariah 3:8-9; 4:10
5:8 Psalm 111:2
5:9 Psalm 40:3; 98:1; 144:9; 149:1; Isaiah 42:10; Daniel 5:19
5:10 Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 61:6
5:11 Daniel 7:10

6:2 Zechariah 1:8; 6:3
6:4 Zechariah 1:8; 6:2
6:5 Zechariah 6:2
6:8 Jeremiah 15:2-3; 24:10; 29:17; Ezekiel 14:21; Hosea 13:14; Zechariah 6:3
6:12 Isaiah 50:3; Joel 2:10
6:13 Isaiah 34:4
6:14 Isaiah 34:4; Nahum 1:5
6:15 Psalm 48:4-6; Isaiah 2:10-12, 19
6:16 Hosea 10:8
6:17 Psalm 76:7; Jeremiah 30:7; Nahum 1:6; Zephaniah 1:14-18; Malachi 3:2

7:1 Isaiah 11:2; Jeremiah 49:36; Ezekiel 7:2; 37:9; Daniel 7:2; Zechariah 6:5
7:3 Ezekiel 9:4-6
7:4 Genesis 49:1-28
7:9 Leviticus 23:40
7:10 Psalm 3:8
7:14 Genesis 49:11
7:15 Leviticus 26:11
7:16 Psalm 121:5-6; Isaiah 49:10
7:17 Psalm 23:1-2; Ezekiel 34:23

8:3 Psalm 141:2
8:4 Psalm 141:2
8:5 Ezekiel 10:2
8:5-6 Exodus 19:16
8:7 Exodus 9:23-24; Psalm 18:13; Isaiah 28:2
8:8 Exodus 7:17-19
8:10 Isaiah 14:12
8:11 Jeremiah 9:15; 23:15
8:12 Isaiah 13:10
Revelation
9:1 Isaiah 14:12-14
9:2 Genesis 19:28; Exodus 19:8
9:3 Exodus 10:12-15
9:4 Ezekiel 9:4
9:6 Job 3:21
9:8 Joel 1:6
9:9 Joel 2:5
9:11 Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Psalm 88:11; Proverbs 15:11
9:14 Genesis 15:18; Deuteronomy 1:7; Joshua 1:4

10:1 Ezekiel 1:26-28
10:4 Daniel 8:26; 12:4-9
10:5 Deuteronomy 32:40; Daniel 12:7
10:6 Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 32:40; Nehemiah 9:6; Daniel 12:17
10:7 Amos 3:7
10:9 Jeremiah 15:16; Ezekiel 2:8-33
10:11 Ezekiel 37:4, 9

11:1 Ezekiel 40:3-4; Zechariah 2:1-2
11:2 Ezekiel 40:17-20
11:4 Zechariah 4:1-3, 11-14
11:5 Numbers 16:35; II Kings 1:10-12
11:6 Exodus 7:19-25; I Kings 17:1
11:7 Exodus 7:3, 7, 8, 21
11:8 Isaiah 1:9-10; 3:9; Jeremiah 23:14; Ezekiel 16:49; Ezekiel 23:3, 8, 19, 27
11:9 Psalm 79:2-3
11:11 Ezekiel 37:9-10
11:15 Exodus 15:18; Daniel 2:44-45; 7:13-14, 27
11:18 Psalm 2:1-3; 46:6; 115:13

12:1 Genesis 37:9-11
12:2 Isaiah 26:17; 66:7; Micah 4:9-10
12:3 Isaiah 27:1; Daniel 7:7, 20, 24
12:4 Daniel 8:10
12:5 Psalm 2:8-9; Isaiah 66:7
12:7 Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1
12:9 Genesis 3:1; Job 1:6; 2:1; Zechariah 3:1
12:10 Job 1:9-11; 2:4-5; Zechariah 3:1

12:14 Exodus 19:4; Deuteronomy 32:11; Isaiah 40:31: Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Hosea 2:14-15
12:15 Hosea 15:10
12:17 Genesis 3:15
Revelation
13:1 Daniel 7:3, 7, 8
13:2 Daniel 7:4-6, 8
13:3 Daniel 7:8
13:4 Daniel 8:24
13:5 Daniel 7:8, 11, 20, 25; 11:36
13:7 Daniel 7:21
13:8 Daniel 12:1
13:10 Jeremiah 15:2; 43:11
13:11 Daniel 8:3
13:13 I Kings 1:9-12

14:1 Psalm 2:6; Ezekiel 9:4
14:2 Ezekiel 1:24; 43:2
14:3 Psalm 144:9
14:7 Exodus 20:11
14:8 Isaiah 21:9; Jeremiah 51:7-8
14:10 Genesis 19:24; Psalm 75:8; Isaiah 51:17
14:11 Isaiah 34:10; 66:24
14:14 Daniel 7:13
14:18 Joel 3:13
14:19 Isaiah 63:1-6
14:20 Joel 3:13

15:1 Leviticus 26:21
15:3 Exodus 15:1-18; Deut. 31:30-32:44; Psalm 92:5; Psalm 111:2; 139:14
15:4 Psalm 86:9; Isaiah 66:23; Jeremiah 10:7
15:5 Exodus 38:21
15:6 Leviticus 26:21
15:7 Jeremiah 25:15
15:8 Exod. 40:34-35; Lev. 26:21; I Kings 8:10-11; II Chron. 5:13-14; Isaiah 6:1-4

16:1 Psalm 79:6; Jeremiah 10:25; Ezekiel 22:31
16:2 Exodus 9:9-11; Deuteronomy 28:35
16:3 Exodus 7:17-25
16:4 Exodus 7:17-21; Psalm 78:44
16:5 Psalm 145:17
16:6 Isaiah 49:26
16:7 Psalm 19:9; 145:17
16:10 Exodus 10:21-23
16:12 Isaiah 11:15-16; 41:2, 25; 46:11; Jeremiah 51:36
16:13 Exodus 8:6
16:14 I Kings 22:21-23
16:16 Judges 5:19; II Kings 23:29-30; II Chronicles 35:22; Zechariah 12:11
16:19 Jeremiah 25:15
16:21 Exodus 9:18-25

17:1 Jeremiah 51:13; Nahum 3:4
17:2 Isaiah 23:17
17:3 Daniel 7:7
17:4 Jeremiah 51:7; Ezekiel 28:13
17:8 Exodus 32:32-33; Daniel 12:1
17:12 Daniel 7:24-25
17:16 Leviticus 21:9

18:1 Ezekiel 43:2
18:2 Isaiah 21:9; 34:13-15; Jeremiah 50:30; 51:37
18:3 Jeremiah 51:7
18:4 Isaiah 52:11; Jeremiah 50:8; 51:6, 45
18:5 Jeremiah 41:9
18:6 Psalm 137:8; Jeremiah 50:15, 29
18:7 Isaiah 47:7-8; Zephaniah 2:15
18:8 Isaiah 47:9; Jeremiah 50:31-32
18:9-19 Ezekiel 26:16-18; 27:26-31
18:9 Jeremiah 50:46
18:10 Isaiah 13:1
18:12 Ezekiel 27:12-25
18:20 Jeremiah 51:48
18:21 Jeremiah 51:63-64
18:22 Isaiah 24:8; Jeremiah 25:10; Ezekiel 26:13
18:23 Jeremiah 7:34; 16:9; 25:10; Nahum 3:4

19:2 Deuteronomy 32:43; Psalm 119:137; Jeremiah 51:48
19:3 Isaiah 34:9-10; Jeremiah 51:48
19:5 Psalm 22:23; 134:1; 135:1
19:6 Psalm 93:1; 97:1; Ezekiel 1:24; 43:2; Daniel 10:6
19:11 Psalm 18:10; 45:3-4; Isaiah 11:4-5; Ezekiel 1:1
19:13 Isaiah 63:3
19:15 Psalm 2:8-9; Isaiah 11:4; 63:3-6
19:16 Deuteronomy 10:17
19:17 Isaiah 34:6-7; Ezekiel 39:17
19:18 Isaiah 34:6-7; Ezekiel 39:18
19:19 Psalm 2:2; Joel 3:9-11
19:20 Isaiah 30:33: Daniel 7:11
19:21 Ezekiel 39:19-20

20:2 Genesis 3:1, 13-14; Isaiah 24:21-22
20:4 Daniel 7:9, 22, 27; 12:2
20:5 Isaiah 26:14
20:6 Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 26:19
20:8 Ezekiel 38:2; 39:1, 6
20:9 Deuteronomy 23:14; II Kings 1:9-12; Ezekiel 38:22; 39:6
20:11 Daniel 2:35
20:12 Exodus 32:32-33; Psalm 62:12; 69:28; Daniel 7:10
20:15 Exodus 32:32-33; Daniel 12:1


21:1 Isaiah 65:17; 66:22
21:3 Leviticus 26:11-12; Ezekiel 37:27
21:4 Isaiah 25:8; 35:10; 51:11; 65:19
21:9 Leviticus 26:21
21:10 Ezekiel 40:2
21:11 Isaiah 60:1-2; Ezekiel 43:2
21:12-13 Ezekiel 48:31-34
21:15 Ezekiel 40:3, 5
21:19-20 Exodus 28:17-20; Isaiah 54:11-12
21:23 Isaiah 60:19-20
21:24 Isaiah 60:3-5, 16
21:25 Isaiah 60:11; Zechariah 14:7
21:26 Isaiah 60:5, 16
21:27 Isaiah 52:1; Ezekiel 44:9; Zechariah 14:21
Revelation
22:1 Psalm 46:4; Ezekiel 47:1; Zechariah 14:8
22:2 Genesis 2:9; 3:22-24; Ezekiel 47:12
22:3 Genesis 3:17-19; Zechariah 14:11
22:4 Psalm 17:15; Ezekiel 9:4
22:5 Isaiah 60:19; Daniel 7:18, 22, 27; Zechariah 14:7
22:10 Daniel 8:26; 12:4, 9
22:11 Ezekiel 3:27; Daniel 12:10
22:12 Psalm 62:12; Isaiah 40:10; 62:11
22:13 Isaiah 44:6
22:14 Genesis 2:9; 3:22-24; Proverbs 11:30
22:15 Deuteronomy 23:18
22:18-19 Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32
22:19 Deuteronomy 29:19-20

 

[for_his_glory]

There are many prophecies in Rev., as most people know. But they don't know how many. That number is twelve. How many do you think there are? In my earlier post I listed what they are about.

I must have missed that list, which post # was that.

 

[Goldwing]

I must have missed that list, which post # was that.

Post # 82

 

[for_his_glory]

Post # 82

Thank you will go back and read it.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I'm extremely wary of anyone who claims to completely understand Revelation in all its facets. Forums are full of experts who believe they have "cracked its code" or "unravelled its secret message". There is nothing wrong with having a favourite subject and if that is the Book of Revelation then by its own admonition it will be a blessing to you.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

"Forums are full of experts who believe they have 'cracked its code' or 'unraveled' its secret message'"

Do you believe they have done so? If you don't believe it, then what motivates you to call them "experts"? Are you just being sarcastic?

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree with your first sentence, but where is Israel mentioned in any of the twelve prophecies in Rev. Rev. covers the seals, the trumpets judgements, the two witness, the rise of Babylon, the seven bowls, the second coming, the Day of The Lord, earth purified, and the New Heaven and earth.

You only give what Rev covers, but never listed what the twelve prophecies are that you mentioned.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm extremely wary of anyone who claims to completely understand Revelation in all its facets. Forums are full of experts who believe they have "cracked its code" or "unravelled its secret message". There is nothing wrong with having a favourite subject and if that is the Book of Revelation then by its own admonition it will be a blessing to you.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

There are no codes or secret messages in the book of Revelation. If one takes their time in studying every chapter and verse and allow themselves to hear what the Holy Spirit wants to reveal to them it is not that hard to understand this book.

It took me many many years studying the book of Revelation cross referencing OT scripture and Biblical history, as it is my passion to understand end time events that brought me to write my own book on Revelation that you can find in the End Times forum under the subforum Revelation. I'm no expert by any means, but I only give my understanding in what has been revealed to me.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation
4:1 Ezekiel 1:1
4:2 Isaiah 6:1; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9
4:3 Ezekiel 1:26, 28; 10:1
4:5 Exodus 19:16; 25:37; Isaiah 11:2; Ezekiel 1:13
4:6 Ezekiel 1:5, 18, 22, 26; 10:1, 12
4:7 Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14
4:8 Isaiah 6:2-3; Ezekiel 1:18; 10:12
4:9 Deuteronomy 32:40; Daniel 4:34; 6:26; 12:7
4:11 Genesis 1:1
Revelation
5:1 Ezekiel 2:9-10; Daniel 12:4
5:5 Genesis 49:9-10; Isaiah 11:1, 10
5:6 Isaiah 11:2; Zechariah 3:8-9; 4:10
5:8 Psalm 111:2
5:9 Psalm 40:3; 98:1; 144:9; 149:1; Isaiah 42:10; Daniel 5:19
5:10 Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 61:6
5:11 Daniel 7:10
Revelation
6:2 Zechariah 1:8; 6:3
6:4 Zechariah 1:8; 6:2
6:5 Zechariah 6:2
6:8 Jeremiah 15:2-3; 24:10; 29:17; Ezekiel 14:21; Hosea 13:14; Zechariah 6:3
6:12 Isaiah 50:3; Joel 2:10
6:13 Isaiah 34:4
6:14 Isaiah 34:4; Nahum 1:5
6:15 Psalm 48:4-6; Isaiah 2:10-12, 19
6:16 Hosea 10:8
6:17 Psalm 76:7; Jeremiah 30:7; Nahum 1:6; Zephaniah 1:14-18; Malachi 3:2
Revelation
7:1 Isaiah 11:2; Jeremiah 49:36; Ezekiel 7:2; 37:9; Daniel 7:2; Zechariah 6:5
7:3 Ezekiel 9:4-6
7:4 Genesis 49:1-28
7:9 Leviticus 23:40
7:10 Psalm 3:8
7:14 Genesis 49:11
7:15 Leviticus 26:11
7:16 Psalm 121:5-6; Isaiah 49:10
7:17 Psalm 23:1-2; Ezekiel 34:23
(See full list at this link: OT Cross-References in Revelation)

I too found that list and saved it.

 

[Exeter]

"Forums are full of experts who believe they have 'cracked its code' or 'unraveled' its secret message'"

Do you believe they have done so? If you don't believe it, then what motivates you to call them "experts"? Are you just being sarcastic?

The thread title references disagreeing experts, giving context to my use of the term "expert" to describe those who appeal to their extensive studies as exhaustive, some even maintaining they have cracked a code in the Book of Revelation and unraveled a secret message in it.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

The thread title references disagreeing experts, giving context to my use of the term "expert" to describe those who appeal to their extensive studies as exhaustive, some even maintaining they have cracked a code in the Book of Revelation and unraveled a secret message in it.

So you call someone "expert" about something about which you think he/she is misguided?

 

[Goldwing]

You only give what Rev covers, but never listed what the twelve prophecies are that you mentioned.

Oh, you're asking where each one starts and ends? Ok, here they are, but keep in mind in Dan. there are five, so continuing into Rev. we have twelve more, seventeen total. So the first in Rev., is prophecy #6 The Six Seals,(4;1-6:17)
#7, The 144,000., (7:1-8:1)
#8, The Six Trumpets, (8:2-9:21)
#9, The Two Witness, (10:1-11:19)
#10, Baby Jesus, 12;1-6)
#11, The Rise of Babylon, (12;7-14:5)
#12,The Eternal Gospel, (14:6-15:6)
#13, The Seven Bowls, (15:7-16-21)
#14, The Second Coming, (18;1-19:10)
#15, The Day of The Lord, (19:11-20:10)
#16, The Earth Purified, (20:11-21;1)
#17, The New Heaven and Earth, (21:2-8)

As you my know, in the original manuscripts there were no punctuation, This was all added with the King James Bible. Thus, the Prophecies, can start in one Chapter and end in another.
To determine and end to one prophecy and the start of another one must pay strict attention to chronology.