Growth Why Then the Law?

[sourberry]

Was Homosexuality a sin before the law of Moses?

Yes, as I think.

This has nothing to do with the law, as I think.

 

[JLB]

Yes, as I think.

This has nothing to do with the law, as I think.

Here is a hint: Sodom.

Why was Sodom destroyed by fire 430 years before the law of Moses?


JLB

 

[digging]

The law is about the things that lead to death, that will never change, but the Jew's believed and tried very hard to gain life through simply avoiding the negative. We gain life through the gift God gives us and God's love gives us the strength to turn away from evil things.

Digging

 

[sourberry]

the Jew's believed and tried very hard to gain life through simply avoiding the negative.

Jews had an agreement with God, and received instructions from God on what to do, as I think. They have got Temple, they have got saints, they also received continual supervision through prophets, as I think.

 

[jasoncran]

I think because they were Godly men and God impresses on the hearts of those who love Him and wish to service Him.

But I also believe that God gave all men a conscious. Kathi gave a very good post about this.

actually its likely that when god said things like

for the sins of the amorites are not yet full. Abraham would have asked or had to know what sins they did

 

[jasoncran]

I did not refer to all jews, only the ones that built the congregation of the church at that time. I understand it was a Jerusalem church.

I am not suggesting anything here, just share what I think. I think that jews as a congregation arrived at the thinking that Moses law needs to be imposed on the Gentiles. I am not talking of the individual jews, but of the whole congregation.

The acts do not say "all", they just do not mention jews who would think otherwise. I might be mistaking here, so please feel free to correct me.

the torah does teach the law was given to isreal so that they could be the light of the nations. but it doesn't really say that gentiles were to convert. it could be taken as an implication, but also has merely teaching them the seven laws. likely by them being blessed the goy would ask and learn and convert if they choose to live as a Hebrew. case in point ruth, rachab, urijah the Hittite. but if they choose to remain in the their land and love isreal's god it wouldn't be under the torah

 

[Deborah13]

actually its likely that when god said things like

for the sins of the amorites are not yet full. Abraham would have asked or had to know what sins they did

That's possible too.

 

[jasoncran]

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Noah

some are from the apochrya book called japeth, also remember some of that could be implied

You know I have tried to get 7 laws out of Genesis 9 but these are the only ones I am clearly getting?
1) do not murder
2) don't not eat the flesh from a living animal

its implied by the story of Dinah for the courts
the mentioning rebecah having the house diety, and also that idolatry was bad by that. its not logical to say that god allowed false gods and him to worshipped in the days of the noahides
the idea of murder being bad is from cain and able
sexual sins? see the accounts of joseph, Abraham in Egypt and philestia, and also Dinah.
if one cuts meat from the animal is alive how would one bleed it?

 

[Deborah13]

the torah does teach the law was given to isreal so that they could be the light of the nations. but it doesn't really say that gentiles were to convert. it could be taken as an implication, but also has merely teaching them the seven laws. likely by them being blessed the goy would ask and learn and convert if they choose to live as a Hebrew. case in point ruth, rachab, urijah the Hittite. but if they choose to remain in the their land and love isreal's god it wouldn't be under the torah

You know, I was thinking about this very thing yesterday. I'd been reading an article written by a Rabbi and he was explaining that when they say Torah they are referring to all the first five books, not just the law. So then I was thinking about how they were suppose to be the light of the world and it dawn on me that, that prophecy (if it can be called that) was fulfilled in Christ, the light of the world.

 

[Deborah13]

It did it to you again. No Content in your post.
This has happened to me too. I had to delete and edit.

 

[Deborah13]

some are from the apochrya book called japeth, also remember some of that could be implied


its implied by the story of Dinah for the courts
the mentioning rebecah having the house diety, and also that idolatry was bad by that. its not logical to say that god allowed false gods and him to worshipped in the days of the noahides
the idea of murder being bad is from cain and able
sexual sins? see the accounts of joseph, Abraham in Egypt and philestia, and also Dinah.
if one cuts meat from the animal is alive how would one bleed it?

Thanks Jason, I knew most of these things are there but I just couldn't get them out of Genesis 9.
I didn't know put together Dinah and the courts at all. I'll have to read again.
Yep, Rebecca taking her father's idol with her, the sneak.
Who would be so cruel as to cut meat from a live animal? God showed them how to kill an animal so it wouldn't suffer, so we know He cares for the critters.

 

[TOG]

I knew the certain things including this one was immoral before I was a Christian or knew anything that God said about it.
I wouldn't have called it sin, just wrong, unnatural, against nature. So it's not a surprise that people who are indwell-ed with the Holy Spirit would know. The Lord writes His law on their hearts.

That doesn't seem surprising to me at all. God said, through the prophet Jeremiah, that He would write His laws on our hearts. I believe that He was referring to the law He gave through Moses. The problem is that some people seem to think that He was going to write some other law on our hearts, and the law in the books of Moses isn't valid for us. If that's the case, then why would people say that something from the OT law is valid, when the law as a whole is (according to them ) not valid?

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

Sodom and gommorah why did god judge them?

That's quite an interesting question. The first mention of homosexual behavior is in Leviticus 20, but the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is much earlier, in Genesis 18-19. How could God judge people for violating a commandment that hadn't been given yet? The answer is simple. The commandment had already been given. It just wasn't written down in the Biblical account that we have today. If we read a bit between the lines, we see implications that a number of commandments were given before the written account was given that we have today. For example, God was displeased with Cain's sacrifice. That implies that God had already told them how to offer a proper sacrifice. And why were they offering sacrifices in the first place, unless God had told them to do so? Also, before Cain murdered his brother, God spoke to him about sin (Gen. 4:6-7), as if Cain already knew what sin was. We don't know the details, but it's clear that God had already given a moral code for people to live by, and it included instructions about sacrifices and a commandment prohibiting murder. The Israelites knew about the Sabbath before the Ten Commandments were given (Ex. 16:22-26). Noah knew about clean and unclean animals (Gen. 7:2), which must mean that God had already given rules to distinguish between the clean and unclean.

And that last point implies something else. If God gave Noah (or someone before him) dietary rules then He gave them to Gentiles, as well as Jews.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

That's quite an interesting question. The first mention of homosexual behavior is in Leviticus 20, but the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is much earlier, in Genesis 18-19. How could God judge people for violating a commandment that hadn't been given yet? The answer is simple. The commandment had already been given. It just wasn't written down in the Biblical account that we have today. If we read a bit between the lines, we see implications that a number of commandments were given before the written account was given that we have today. For example, God was displeased with Cain's sacrifice. That implies that God had already told them how to offer a proper sacrifice. And why were they offering sacrifices in the first place, unless God had told them to do so? Also, before Cain murdered his brother, God spoke to him about sin (Gen. 4:6-7), as if Cain already knew what sin was. We don't know the details, but it's clear that God had already given a moral code for people to live by, and it included instructions about sacrifices and a commandment prohibiting murder. The Israelites knew about the Sabbath before the Ten Commandments were given (Ex. 16:22-26). Noah knew about clean and unclean animals (Gen. 7:2), which must mean that God had already given rules to distinguish between the clean and unclean.

And that last point implies something else. If God gave Noah (or someone before him) dietary rules then He gave them to Gentiles, as well as Jews.

The TOG​

Well, there you go, a change of the dietary laws After the flood, because in Genesis 9 it says....

en 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

hmm..... After the flood I'm thinking, need to pray about that. Why different after the flood when they had just preserved more clean animals than unclean?

 

[JLB]

That's quite an interesting question. The first mention of homosexual behavior is in Leviticus 20, but the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is much earlier, in Genesis 18-19. How could God judge people for violating a commandment that hadn't been given yet? The answer is simple. The commandment had already been given. It just wasn't written down in the Biblical account that we have today. If we read a bit between the lines, we see implications that a number of commandments were given before the written account was given that we have today. For example, God was displeased with Cain's sacrifice. That implies that God had already told them how to offer a proper sacrifice. And why were they offering sacrifices in the first place, unless God had told them to do so? Also, before Cain murdered his brother, God spoke to him about sin (Gen. 4:6-7), as if Cain already knew what sin was. We don't know the details, but it's clear that God had already given a moral code for people to live by, and it included instructions about sacrifices and a commandment prohibiting murder. The Israelites knew about the Sabbath before the Ten Commandments were given (Ex. 16:22-26). Noah knew about clean and unclean animals (Gen. 7:2), which must mean that God had already given rules to distinguish between the clean and unclean.

And that last point implies something else. If God gave Noah (or someone before him) dietary rules then He gave them to Gentiles, as well as Jews.

The TOG​

It seems you are beginning to understand that God's laws, which were kept by Abraham 430 years before the Law of Moses have been in affect since the beginning with Adam, and are in affect today.

The Law of Moses was added until the Seed should come... Galatians 3:19

The law of Moses was unique to the children of Israel, for the land of Israel

By saying added, we see the Holy Spirit is indicating some different laws than the Laws of God that Abraham walked in.

By saying until, the Holy Spirit is indicating the Law of Moses was temporary.


JLB

 

[TOG]

Well, there you go, a change of the dietary laws After the flood, because in Genesis 9 it says....

en 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

hmm..... After the flood I'm thinking, need to pray about that. Why different after the flood when they had just preserved more clean animals than unclean?

It's not that complicated. Consider this analogy. A store is going out of business, and advertises "Every item in the store for must go! Everything is just one low price - $5"

Okay... So I'm not good at writing advertisements. You know what I mean. Now, you go into the store and say "I'd like to buy the cash register (with everything in it, of course). Here's $5." Would they sell you the cash register? Of course not. But the advertisement said that "every item" cost's $5. Why doesn't that apply to the cash register?

The fact is that "everything" doesn't always mean every single thing, but rather everything that is in a group of things implied by the context. In the case of the store, what the ad really meant was "Every item which is for sale must go." In the case of Noah, what God was saying was "Every clean moving thing that lives..." It's really obvious if you think about it. If Noah had 2 pair of foxes and ate both males, we wouldn't have any foxes today. But with 7 pair of sheep, cows, oxen, goats and all other clean animals, he had enough to last him and his family until the animals could reproduce.

The TOG​

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

That's quite an interesting question. The first mention of homosexual behavior is in Leviticus 20, but the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is much earlier, in Genesis 18-19. How could God judge people for violating a commandment that hadn't been given yet? The answer is simple. The commandment had already been given. It just wasn't written down in the Biblical account that we have today. If we read a bit between the lines, we see implications that a number of commandments were given before the written account was given that we have today. For example, God was displeased with Cain's sacrifice. That implies that God had already told them how to offer a proper sacrifice. And why were they offering sacrifices in the first place, unless God had told them to do so? Also, before Cain murdered his brother, God spoke to him about sin (Gen. 4:6-7), as if Cain already knew what sin was. We don't know the details, but it's clear that God had already given a moral code for people to live by, and it included instructions about sacrifices and a commandment prohibiting murder. The Israelites knew about the Sabbath before the Ten Commandments were given (Ex. 16:22-26). Noah knew about clean and unclean animals (Gen. 7:2), which must mean that God had already given rules to distinguish between the clean and unclean.

And that last point implies something else. If God gave Noah (or someone before him) dietary rules then He gave them to Gentiles, as well as Jews.

The TOG​

I accept the ministries of the Apostles and I trust that they were lead by the Holy Spirit and that the Lord had told them many things that were not written down in the 4 Gospels. So when I see the verse that says the Law was given UNTIL the Seed should come, I believe it.
The Messiah came. He clearly said that He fulfilled the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
He gave us the 2 Commandments that James calls the Royal Law, the law of love.
Jesus said if we do things two commandments that we fulfill all law. Not just the Law of Moses but all law, from Adam to the Messiah.

This is what I believe...
The laws of love given by the Messiah are complete, they encompass more than any law that was ever given.
Moses' Law, mediated by the man Moses can never come up to the standards of the Messiah's Law that He spoke while here living with men, and that He is the mediator of that Royal Law. Why? Because of the Mediator.
Moses' was a man born of Adam. The Messiah, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, the Alpha and the Omega.

All things begin and end with Him. It doesn't matter how many times He changes THINGS, whether it be laws or how He communicates with man, He is still the same.
For instance, did man always have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? No, IT changed, God didn't.

And I had to take a break from this post. Why? To listen to my grandson quote the 10 Commandments for his Sunday school class! He missed two. lol, the Sabbath, he gave himself a facepalm, and adultery which I doubt he really knows what the even means.

 

[Deborah13]

It's not that complicated. Consider this analogy. A store is going out of business, and advertises "Every item in the store for must go! Everything is just one low price - $5"

Okay... So I'm not good at writing advertisements. You know what I mean. Now, you go into the store and say "I'd like to buy the cash register (with everything in it, of course). Here's $5." Would they sell you the cash register? Of course not. But the advertisement said that "every item" cost's $5. Why doesn't that apply to the cash register?

The fact is that "everything" doesn't always mean every single thing, but rather everything that is in a group of things implied by the context. In the case of the store, what the ad really meant was "Every item which is for sale must go." In the case of Noah, what God was saying was "Every clean moving thing that lives..." It's really obvious if you think about it. If Noah had 2 pair of foxes and ate both males, we wouldn't have any foxes today. But with 7 pair of sheep, cows, oxen, goats and all other clean animals, he had enough to last him and his family until the animals could reproduce.

The TOG​

The TOG​

You could be right about that, that it meant every clean moving thing that lives. Good point.

I just looked at that Noah would have the common sense not to eat what there was only two of. But look at some men today, they don't care if they kill of endangered species.

 

[TOG]

He gave us the 2 Commandments that James calls the Royal Law, the law of love.

Many people seem to think that Jesus gave us the two greatest commandments - love God and love your neighbor - to replace the Old Testament law. But that's not the case. First of all, Jesus didn't give us those commandments.

And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself". (Matt. 22:35-39 ESV)
​

These commandments are both in the law.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deu. 6:5)

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)
​

Secondly they don't replace anything.

On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 22:40)​

The law is based on these two commandments. How can they then replace the law? That would be like saying a foundation replaces a house.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

Many people seem to think that Jesus gave us the two greatest commandments - love God and love your neighbor - to replace the Old Testament law. But that's not the case. First of all, Jesus didn't give us those commandments.

And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself". (Matt. 22:35-39 ESV)
​

These commandments are both in the law.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deu. 6:5)

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)
​

Secondly they don't replace anything.

On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 22:40)​

The law is based on these two commandments. How can they then replace the law? That would be like saying a foundation replaces a house.

The TOG​

When the phrase the Law and the Prophets are used together, it is a reference to the whole entire Old Testament, not just the law of Moses, which was added.

The Law, Torah included Genesis. It is to this Law, the Law of god that Jesus makes His reference.

Love God, and love your neighbor is what all the Old Testament scriptures hang on, not just the law of Moses.

The Law and the Prophets include Genesis which pertains to all mankind.

The Law of Moses was unique to the Children of Israel in the land of Israel.


JLB