Growth Why Then the Law?

[jasoncran]

That's quite an interesting question. The first mention of homosexual behavior is in Leviticus 20, but the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is much earlier, in Genesis 18-19. How could God judge people for violating a commandment that hadn't been given yet? The answer is simple. The commandment had already been given. It just wasn't written down in the Biblical account that we have today. If we read a bit between the lines, we see implications that a number of commandments were given before the written account was given that we have today. For example, God was displeased with Cain's sacrifice. That implies that God had already told them how to offer a proper sacrifice. And why were they offering sacrifices in the first place, unless God had told them to do so? Also, before Cain murdered his brother, God spoke to him about sin (Gen. 4:6-7), as if Cain already knew what sin was. We don't know the details, but it's clear that God had already given a moral code for people to live by, and it included instructions about sacrifices and a commandment prohibiting murder. The Israelites knew about the Sabbath before the Ten Commandments were given (Ex. 16:22-26). Noah knew about clean and unclean animals (Gen. 7:2), which must mean that God had already given rules to distinguish between the clean and unclean.

And that last point implies something else. If God gave Noah (or someone before him) dietary rules then He gave them to Gentiles, as well as Jews.

The TOG​

yes but the dietary laws weren't kosher.

noah could eat pigs. all that means that. all.

the command of the shabat wasn't given then if it was the jews wouldn't have asked moses about what to do when one breaks it. they would have known. yet with circumsion they knew that death was the penalty for its failure.

 

[Deborah13]

Many people seem to think that Jesus gave us the two greatest commandments - love God and love your neighbor - to replace the Old Testament law. But that's not the case. First of all, Jesus didn't give us those commandments.

And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself". (Matt. 22:35-39 ESV)
​

These commandments are both in the law.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deu. 6:5)

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)
​

Secondly they don't replace anything.

On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 22:40)​

The law is based on these two commandments. How can they then replace the law? That would be like saying a foundation replaces a house.

The TOG​

I think and believe.....

Lev 19:18 is a good one.
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)

Your neighbor in this law is only your own people. For us this would mean only Christians. But what did Jesus say?
He said love your enemies. Your neighbor is no longer just Your People, it's the guy down the street who doesn't know the Lord. Your love towards him is a witness to the Gospel Message.

What Jesus said is over and above, more perfect for the time after the cross.
Moses' Law was perfect for the time it was given for and the people it was given to.

The commandment to love God with every thing you've got can never change because if we don't we cannot do any other law, whether it be the Royal Law or the Law of Moses. The power to obey only comes from Him.
Doings that don't come from loving God are worthless. As you pointed out so well in one of your posts. (para) "we obey God because".

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
To me that scripture says the all the law and the prophets hang on those two commandments. Which is just the opposite of what you see. Love is the bases for all law.
When I got this through my head and into my heart, it was then that I understood why Moses' Law ( a hard law, that man could not do perfectly) was given because God loved them. They had to see their need for a Savior. Just as we do.

That is why Jesus said that if we do those two commandments we fulfill all law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[jasoncran]

I think and believe.....

Lev 19:18 is a good one.
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)

Your neighbor in this law is only your own people. For us this would mean only Christians. But what did Jesus say?
He said love your enemies. Your neighbor is no longer just Your People, it's the guy down the street who doesn't know the Lord. Your love towards him is a witness to the Gospel Message.

What Jesus said is over and above, more perfect for the time after the cross.
Moses' Law was perfect for the time it was given for and the people it was given to.

The commandment to love God with every thing you've got can never change because if we don't we cannot do any other law, whether it be the Royal Law or the Law of Moses. The power to obey only comes from Him.
Doings that don't come from loving God are worthless. As you pointed out so well in one of your posts. (para) "we obey God because".

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
To me that scripture says the all the law and the prophets hang on those two commandments. Which is just the opposite of what you see. Love is the bases for all law.
When I got this through my head and into my heart, it was then that I understood why Moses' Law ( a hard law, that man could not do perfectly) was given because God loved them. They had to see their need for a Savior. Just as we do.

That is why Jesus said that if we do those two commandments we fulfill all law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

if thou seest thine enemy ass astray thou shall not fail to return it to him.

 

[Deborah13]

if thou seest thine enemy ass astray thou shall not fail to return it to him.

Yep, I was just comparing scripture to scripture that TOG had quote where the wording is the same.

I did find the answer to the question I asked you.
Lev 17:13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

 

[Deborah13]

if thou seest thine enemy ass astray thou shall not fail to return it to him.

Personally, I think this was to keep them honest. In other words you can't keep it for yourself, that would be stealing.
Not necessarily to show love to him.
But it could have been. To be a good witness to what God's people were to be like. Just like today. I like looking at that way.

 

[TOG]

yes but the dietary laws weren't kosher.

noah could eat pigs. all that means that. all.

Like I said in another post, "everything" often takes its meaning from the context in which it is used. It's obvious from the context that "everything" here referred to the clean animals, which Noah was told to take more of than the unclean animals. We are not told which animals were clean and unclean in this context, but considering that God doesn't change, it seems logical to me that it would be the same animals declared clean and unclean in Leviticus.

the command of the shabat wasn't given then if it was the jews wouldn't have asked moses about what to do when one breaks it. they would have known. yet with circumsion they knew that death was the penalty for its failure.

We are not told exactly when the Sabbath was given, but the it was before the Ten Commandments were given at Mt. Sinai. The people knew about the Sabbath in Exodus 16, but the Ten Commandments weren't given until chapter 20.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

I think and believe.....

Lev 19:18 is a good one.
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18 ESV)

Your neighbor in this law is only your own people. For us this would mean only Christians. But what did Jesus say?
He said love your enemies. Your neighbor is no longer just Your People, it's the guy down the street who doesn't know the Lord. Your love towards him is a witness to the Gospel Message.

What Jesus said is over and above, more perfect for the time after the cross.
Moses' Law was perfect for the time it was given for and the people it was given to.

When Jesus said that the second greatest commandment was "love your neighbor as you love yourself", he was asked "who is my neighbor?". Jesus' reply was the story of the Good Samaritan. After telling the parable, Jesus asked the man "Which of these was the mans neighbor?", and the man answered correctly that it was the one who had helped him. By telling this story, Jesus wasn't replacing or changing the commandment to love our neighbors. He was showing us the true meaning of the commandment. Everyone whom we come into contact with and whose actions affect us (and, by extension, anyone who is affected by our actions) is our neighbor, and we are commanded to love him.

That is why Jesus said that if we do those two commandments we fulfill all law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

"Fulfilled" doesn't mean brought to an end or replaced. If we love our neighbor, we won't kill him, steal from him, commit adultery with his wife or do any of the other things the law tells us not to do in our relationships with others. We will also help him when he is in need and do all the other things the law tells us to do in our relationships with others.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

When Jesus said that the second greatest commandment was "love your neighbor as you love yourself", he was asked "who is my neighbor?". Jesus' reply was the story of the Good Samaritan. After telling the parable, Jesus asked the man "Which of these was the mans neighbor?", and the man answered correctly that it was the one who had helped him. By telling this story, Jesus wasn't replacing or changing the commandment to love our neighbors. He was showing us the true meaning of the commandment. Everyone whom we come into contact with and whose actions affect us (and, by extension, anyone who is affected by our actions) is our neighbor, and we are commanded to love him.



"Fulfilled" doesn't mean brought to an end or replaced. If we love our neighbor, we won't kill him, steal from him, commit adultery with his wife or do any of the other things the law tells us not to do in our relationships with others. We will also help him when he is in need and do all the other things the law tells us to do in our relationships with others.

The TOG​

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

Vanished away certainly does mean brought to an end, done away with, no more, Kaput, over with, ceased, no longer in affect....


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

If God breathed scripts can be used for correction, then certainly the Moses law too, as I think.

The Moses low is holly, and no God person would dishonor the Moses law, as I think.

It is just the Moses law was not intended for Gentiles. You see?

All men are condemned by the Mosaic Law if they are not saved. Now, look at John 1:1-3, Jesus is the God and the Author of both Testaments.

Now, I am going to offend millions but, the truth is just that. Jesus instructed us to examine the fruits of a man to determine his or her condition. Another teaching of my LORD is that, if we love Him, we will obey His commands, and the Ten Commandments are His.

But, and this is one large but, we 'cannot' stop there. Here, my view of the scriptures becomes a valid point; The Bible is the books Jesus taught from and that is the first 39 books of the Christian Bible. The remaining 27 books are the God/Jesus inspired Life Application Commentary on the Bible Jesus and John commented on and taught from.

The Lost Man, you, are condemned by the Mosaic Law but the Christian, to him or her, it is the example or rule for our behavior, quite a difference. But when we examine the fruits, the acts, of Christians, some, most, must concern us.

 

[jasoncran]

Personally, I think this was to keep them honest. In other words you can't keep it for yourself, that would be stealing.
Not necessarily to show love to him.
But it could have been. To be a good witness to what God's people were to be like. Just like today. I like looking at that way.

I think it was the later given that any enemy left alive wasn't gods enemies per se but the nations around isreal. see deutermony 4.

 

[JLB]

All men are condemned by the Mosaic Law if they are not saved. Now, look at John 1:1-3, Jesus is the God and the Author of both Testaments.

Now, I am going to offend millions but, the truth is just that. Jesus instructed us to examine the fruits of a man to determine his or her condition. Another teaching of my LORD is that, if we love Him, we will obey His commands, and the Ten Commandments are His.

But, and this is one large but, we 'cannot' stop there. Here, my view of the scriptures becomes a valid point; The Bible is the books Jesus taught from and that is the first 39 books of the Christian Bible. The remaining 27 books are the God/Jesus inspired Life Application Commentary on the Bible Jesus and John commented on and taught from.

The Lost Man, you, are condemned by the Mosaic Law but the Christian, to him or her, it is the example or rule for our behavior, quite a difference. But when we examine the fruits, the acts, of Christians, some, most, must concern us.

All men are certainly not condemned by the law of Moses.

All men are condemned by the transgression of Adam.

You shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Where does this law appear in Moses law?

JLB

 

[jasoncran]

Like I said in another post, "everything" often takes its meaning from the context in which it is used. It's obvious from the context that "everything" here referred to the clean animals, which Noah was told to take more of than the unclean animals. We are not told which animals were clean and unclean in this context, but considering that God doesn't change, it seems logical to me that it would be the same animals declared clean and unclean in Leviticus.

exodus was actually first then genesis. the book of genesis was written after the events of exodus.

evidence?
exodus 6

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them

genesis 22 vs 14

And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen

so how is that Abraham called God by the name of Jehovah? when in exodus wasn't revealed to him? that means moses wrote and having the oral stories and better revalation said the names of whom they called upon.
rememember the entire 613 laws to include the levites methods of atoning and life all were given at one time or close together. it make sense that way. it was written chunks to make it easier to focus for teaching then just one book. imho.

 

[sourberry]

All men are condemned by the Mosaic Law.

I do not think Moses imposed law on "All men"

 

[jasoncran]

I do not think Moses imposed law on "All men"

isreal was given to be examples.
kosher isn't needed nor salvinical, nor is the shabat. its the rest in Christ that fulfills the shabat.

 

[sourberry]

kosher isn't needed nor salvinical, nor is the shabat.

Who said "isn't needed"?

And what is salvinical?

 

[jasoncran]

Who said "isn't needed"?

And what is salvinical?

shabat is the day of rest. we rest in Christ and can worship god any day of choice. the chapter of romans 14 is about that. its about if you feel that its a sin no to do the shabat then do the shabat , however if its a sin to you do that then don't. the same is the case with foods. only the blood is forbidden and animals strangled.

 

[sourberry]

Very few people a truly rest in Christ, as I think. Many are still worried about what to eat and what to dress. So many are not in Shabat, as I think.

Shabat is a holy day, and this holiness does not seem to begin with Moses law. It goes back to Adam and Eva.

 

[jasoncran]

Very few people a truly rest in Christ, as I think. Many are still worried about what to eat and what to dress. So many are not in Shabat, as I think.

Shabat is a holy day, and this holiness does not seem to begin with Moses law. It goes back to Adam and Eva.

actually if it was it wouldn't have to be given to them. remember much of the law already known to the children of Jacob. they knew killing was bad. they knew about circumcision. they knew about the story of joseph. they took his bones from Egypt and placed him in isreal and buried him there. they also knew the stories about all of genesis. moses merely penned it with a exodus biased event.

else how could abrham called God Jehovah if god said he wasn't known by them as such?

 

[JLB]

Very few people a truly rest in Christ, as I think. Many are still worried about what to eat and what to dress. So many are not in Shabat, as I think.

Shabat is a holy day, and this holiness does not seem to begin with Moses law. It goes back to Adam and Eva.

As long as you are still in a body of sin, whereby your spirit is at war with you flesh, you will never be at rest.

It is when we have our immortal Resurrection bodies that will never die, that we will be at true rest.

We will experience this in the age of Resurrection, which is the 1000 years, or as it is called prophetically The 7th Day, or Seven Thousandth Year.


JLB

 

[TonkaTim]

It is when we have our immortal Resurrection bodies that will never die, that we will be at true rest.

We will experience this in the age of Resurrection, which is the 1000 years, or as it is called prophetically The 7th Day, or Seven Thousandth Year.

You speak truth here.

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: .....And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:"

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

The Great Day of God Almighty.

He told us in creation.