Growth Why Then the Law?

[JLB]

I agree. Moses didn't give any laws. God gave laws through Moses. I prefere to call it "God's law" or "the law of God", if I want to give an origin. Otherwise I simply call it "the law".

The TOG​

The law was added...

The law was added until...

The law of Moses was added to the Covenant of Abraham.


Not the Torah, but the law of Moses was added until ...

That defines the law of Moses as being a part of something greater, as well as temporary.

The Law of God on the other hand, is Eternal.

JLB

 

[sourberry]

[Reply to Sidebar conversation deleted]

It is just that from the Gentile standpoint it is very easy to speculate on torah, however the jew would be facing stoning to death, as I think. And this in not something that is just written, but real rocks would be breaking the bones, as I think.

You escaped second time from my question about "All men".

 

[th1b.taylor]

No, I did not touch scripture.

It is just that from the Gentile standpoint it is very easy to speculate on torah, however the jew would be facing stoning to death, as I think. And this in not something that is just written, but real rocks would be breaking the bones, as I think.

You escaped second time from my question about "All men".

Sorry 'bout that. Not in the Troah anywhere but that is an uneducated question. The question needs to be expressed as, "Does the Bible (Christian implied) say all men? and then I would ask you to read the 13 Epistles written by Paul on the application of the Laws. That, of course, would be because the answer is now, certainly.

Did not mean to evade that question.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You totally misunderstand me and what I have posted.

God Bless you.

Sorry then.

 

[jasoncran]

I wonder how messianic jews can be guilty in following torah? The torah agreement was made with jews as an everlasting agreement, as I think.

most messianic jews aren't even of the seed of Abraham. but are gentiles. the law after the cross was render obeselete in parts. the way of atonement is gone. one cant atone the old way with the feasts.

 

[sourberry]

Sorry 'bout that. Not in the Troah anywhere but that is an uneducated question. The question needs to be expressed as, "Does the Bible (Christian implied) say all men? and then I would ask you to read the 13 Epistles written by Paul on the application of the Laws. That, of course, would be because the answer is now, certainly.

Did not mean to evade that question.

Would 13 Epistles say that 10 commandments, for example, be imposed on (or given to) Gentiles?

Would Gentiles recognize the authority of such commandments, for example?

 

[jasoncran]

Would 13 Epistles say that 10 commandments, for example, be imposed on (or given to) Gentiles?

Would Gentiles recognize the authority of such commandments, for example?

yes, its implied as the torah has what given to adam unto moses. so its valid. please see that. its a list and most of it has what already commanded, save the shabat.

 

[sourberry]

yes, its implied as the torah has what given to adam unto moses. so its valid. please see that. its a list and most of it has what already commanded, save the shabat.

Are there any (out of 10 ?) commandments that Paul even mentions to Gentiles?

 

[jasoncran]

Are there any (out of 10 ?) commandments that even mentions to Gentiles?

yes, honor thy mother and they father. the gospel was preached to whom after the events acts2? everybody. so in the gospels what does it have mentioned? the law, and what was the bible then that is called inspired? the tanach! so its implied.

 

[sourberry]

yes, honor thy mother and they father. the gospel was preached to whom after the events acts2? everybody. so in the gospels what does it have mentioned? the law, and what was the bible then that is called inspired? the tanach! so its implied.

May I ask for an example? And, if possible, please, not an example from the synagogue. Are there any (out of 10 ?) commandments that Paul even mentions to Gentiles?

 

[jasoncran]

May I ask for an example? And, if possible, please, not an example from the synagogue. Are there any (out of 10 ?) commandments that Paul even mentions to Gentiles?

Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

ephasians 6:2 Ephesus is a greek city in modern day turkey. the jews don't make up much of the roman empire. that's a good example there

 

[sourberry]

Agreed. This is one of the ten commandments.

Although, Paul does not introduce ten commandments.

What Paul does seems to be of a different nature, a living water is running out of a belly.

 

[jasoncran]

Agreed. This is one of the ten commandments.

Although, Paul does not introduce ten commandments.

What Paul does seems to be of a different nature, a living water is running out of a belly.

because that is what jesus said all that would believe in him would be. that statement of yours is most Hebrew. the idea of living water is the concept of the torah dwelling in men and also God himself.

 

[TOG]

Although Paul doesn't quote the Ten Commandments very often, he does allude to them.

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. (Ephesians 4:25)

Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. (Ephesians 4:28)

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. (Ephesians 5:3)
​

In these three verses we see 4 of the Ten Commandments:

• Thou shallt not bare false witness against thy neighbor
• Thou shallt not steal
• Thou shallt not commit adultery
• Thou shallt not covet.

I'm sure there are others as well, but those are the ones that first come to mind.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

Although Paul doesn't quote the Ten Commandments very often, he does allude to them.

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. (Ephesians 4:25)
Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. (Ephesians 4:28)

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. (Ephesians 5:3)
​

In these three verses we see 4 of the Ten Commandments:

• Thou shallt not bare false witness against thy neighbor
• Thou shallt not steal
• Thou shallt not commit adultery
• Thou shallt not covet.

I'm sure there are others as well, but those are the ones that first come to mind.

The TOG​

These Laws did not originate with Moses Law on Sinai.

These were God's laws that were in the earth from the beginning, as Abraham walked in, as well as Noah, Job and those that walked with God before the law of Moses was added to the Covenant.

The Sabbath was given to Adam.


Remember the law was added because of transgression.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

God's laws of the Covenant were being transgressed before the law of Moses. The law was added as a specific guide, a fence if you will, around the Covenant, until the Seed should come.

The Seed is the One who gave The Covenant with Abraham, and The Seed is the One who added the law of Moses, to the Covenant, until He became flesh and ratified the Covenant with His own Blood.

That is why the scripture says we have a better covenant based on better promises, not a different covenant, a more complete covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant is superior to the law of Moses, as it was the Law of Moses that was added to the Covenant as a part, because of transgressions.

The law does not annul the Covenant, it guards it as a fence to Tudor the children of Israel, for the purpose of keeping them.

Abraham walked with God, in His presence and learned from Him what was good and what was evil.

This has always been God's intent for mankind, from the beginning.

This principle is seen in the New Covenant, with the words:

No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:34

This is the cry of God's heart.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To me, the most significant misunderstanding in contemporary Christendom concerning the Law is that it was never intended for Gentiles...

To me, the most significant misunderstanding in Christendom concerning the Law is that it is the WAY of the law that was never intended for any of God's people. The requirements of the law themselves are, and always have been, God's intention for his people. Requirements that do indeed separate us and distinguish us from the heathen.

The requirements of the law are holy and good. And God wants all his people, Jew and gentile alike, to uphold those holy requirements through the now revealed WAY of faith in Christ, not through the WAY of the law itself, mere written words and figures that have no power in and of themselves to lead his people into righteousness.

... this was to show the world God chooses people to be separate (Hebrews/Jews first) to Him, which He shows now in Christianity; from being separated from the majority of those in this life—all the way to being separate from the indwelling of our “old man.”

Until this is understood I do not think there can be a sufficient comprehension concerning the Law, for it was only to teach man how God was bringing him to union and fellowship through the Lord Jesus (Galatians 3:24,24).

But a people brought into unity and fellowship with Him who then uphold the requirements of the law, whether literally, or not so literally, through the new WAY of faith in Christ, not the old WAY of powerless written words and shadows of realities.

If the Law had never ceased, it would leave man in the same place where Israel was and now is--in union with God, but not in fellowship, esp. being without Christ at this time (Heb 10:9).

The WAY of the law ceased. What the law requires did not cease, but is now upheld in the new WAY of faith in Christ. Sometimes that upholding of what the law requires is still quite literal, while sometimes it is not. But the requirements of the law are still upheld, not abolished. The old WAY of relating to God through the law was abolished, not the requirements of the law themselves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Although Paul doesn't quote the Ten Commandments very often, he does allude to them.

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. (Ephesians 4:25)
Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. (Ephesians 4:28)

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. (Ephesians 5:3)
​

In these three verses we see 4 of the Ten Commandments:

• Thou shallt not bare false witness against thy neighbor
• Thou shallt not steal
• Thou shallt not commit adultery
• Thou shallt not covet.

I'm sure there are others as well, but those are the ones that first come to mind.

The TOG​

James, also, teaches things right out of the law.

Not teaching the way of the law, and relying on that as the way to relate to God, but teaching the righteousness of the law--the righteousness of God--to Christians who have faith in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

The requirements of the law themselves are, and always have been, God's intention for his people. Requirements that do indeed separate us and distinguish us from the heathen.

The Law of God is indeed for all people and does create a distinction between the people of God and the world.

Please consider the following verse -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

I would like to draw your attention to this phrase - It was added because of transgressions...

Before there was a "law of Moses", there were transgressions to the law of God.

The very purpose of the law of Moses being added, was because of these transgressions. Transgressions to God's law.

This is the law that Abraham walked in 430 years before the law of Moses.

Abraham was able to keep these laws and precepts because he walked "before" God, in His presence.



Maybe you could clarify which "requirements", from the law of Moses that Christians today are required to keep.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think what you should be asking, JLB, is, "which requirements of the law need not be upheld anymore?" That is the more appropriate question since 1) not all the righteous requirements of the law are upheld by us, personally, but still upheld nonetheless, and 2) that would be easier to answer instead of listing the many laws that do get upheld, not abolished, in this New Covenant.

So, I'd have to think what righteous requirement of the law does not now have to be fulfilled, whether literally, or in regard to the spiritual reality it represented, in this New Covenant.

I can't think of one right off.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Law of God is indeed for all people and does create a distinction between the people of God and the world.

Please consider the following verse -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

I would like to draw your attention to this phrase - It was added because of transgressions...

Before there was a "law of Moses", there were transgressions to the law of God.

The very purpose of the law of Moses being added, was because of these transgressions. Transgressions to God's law.

This is the law that Abraham walked in 430 years before the law of Moses.

Abraham was able to keep these laws and precepts because he walked "before" God, in His presence.



Maybe you could clarify which "requirements", from the law of Moses that Christians today are required to keep.


JLB

Yes, the system and way of law was added. And that way that was added has been laid aside. But the righteousness of God contained in it endures, and is fulfilled in this New Covenant, not abolished. But, yes, the old way of law was taken out of the way in favor of the 'new' way of faith. But the righteousness contained in the law remains. The new way of faith in Christ is how we fulfill our part.