Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Hopeful 2]

IMHO angels. Were carrying the message of what Jesus accomplished.
Prophets were giving the message of what Jesus would and did do.
We are messengers of what Jesus did.
God sent the words (this is my son in whom I am well pleased).
We send the word of what Jesus did.

That said: It does not mean everyone is equal, but the message is similar across many levels.

The concept of PaRDeS is speaking. All those ?marks (question marks) you wrote down are related. I am not saying the messangers are equal, but different ways of exalting the Godhead differently, yet similar.

A seed at creation is similar to the Word of God in a parable. A parable is a riddle/mystery in action.

I wonder how many ????? Marks can follow what I tried to say?

Seen through a glass darkly.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

What did any of that have to do with my proofs that Jesus was the Son of God before He was resurrected ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Several posts back by now I told you I agree with those verses. They aren't a problem for the fact that in resurrection is when people become God's child, as Jesus plainly taught. What is your understanding of what Jesus said below?

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

It isn't a fact, as the scriptures you say you agree with testify.
They are just some man of group's interpretation.
It seems off to me that nobody will reveal which group.

"Son's of the resurrection" refer to those made anew at their baptism into Christ, His death, and His burial.
And then raised with Christ at His resurrection to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)
Those new creatures have been reborn of God's seed, and thus are sons of God.

 

[Randy]

Several posts back by now I told you I agree with those verses. They aren't a problem for the fact that in resurrection is when people become God's child, as Jesus plainly taught. What is your understanding of what Jesus said below?

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

You told him wrong in regard the timing one is a born child of God. If one belongs to Christ, as in, Christ in them and they in Him they are heirs as being Gods children as well as Jesus.

Sons of the resurrection doesn't state that is when those found worthy of that resurrection were born of God. Its those Children receiving their inheritance. It follows that those born of God, THE CHILDREN OF GOD, are those who will be resurrected on that last day. THAT THEY ARE INDENTIFIED AS THE CHILDREN OF GOD AS GOD HAS DAUGHTERS AS WELL.

This is about those who are in the flesh. They are born children of God. Those God calls His children. The 2nd birth Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about. Born of the Spirit.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God


So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

 

[Randy]

yes exactly. Jesus became the Son of God in a different sense, while still remaining the Son of God prior to his resurrection.

When people are believing in the "Son of God" they are believing in the post-resurrection Son of God.

Thats your belief. You don't speak for all as if what you state is truth. It's not what all the Christain mainline churches state.
Many believe Jesus has always been the Son. So, the Son who was, the Son of Man, and the Son who is now is the very same Son.

The glory He had in the Fathers presence before the world began, before the angels of God, before authorities and thrones were established in their heavenly places was returned to Him. He was made a little lower than the angels for a little while.

 

[Runningman]

It isn't a fact, as the scriptures you say you agree with testify.
They are just some man of group's interpretation.
It seems off to me that nobody will reveal which group.

"Son's of the resurrection" refer to those made anew at their baptism into Christ, His death, and His burial.
And then raised with Christ at His resurrection to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)
Those new creatures have been reborn of God's seed, and thus are sons of God.

Water baptism isn't resurrection. There is a real, literal, bodily resurrection to immortality coming. Jesus was the first, more will be be later. Jesus is the "firstborn" (the title of a son) of the dead -- meaning he is a Son of God by the resurrection.

Colossians 1
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

1 Corinthians 15
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

 

[eddif]

Gets real interesting.
Changed at:
Fall of Adam
Changed at Flood
Changed at Babel
Changed under law
Changed disciples
Changed at Pentecost
Changed at gentile inclusion
Changed at last trump
More?

Some changes are physical
Some changes are temporal
Some are New Job erusalem
Some changes are eternal

All we have to do is keep it all straight.

We are not yet what we will be.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

You told him wrong

I've been told before that saying words to the effect of being "wrong" is not allowed in the forums.

in regard the timing one is a born child of God. If one belongs to Christ, as in, Christ in them and they in Him they are heirs as being Gods children as well as Jesus.They won't get the inheritance until after their resurrection. My point reminds.


Sons of the resurrection doesn't state that is when those found worthy of that resurrection were born of God. Its those Children receiving their inheritance. It follows that those born of God, THE CHILDREN OF GOD, are those who will be resurrected on that last day. THAT THEY ARE INDENTIFIED AS THE CHILDREN OF GOD AS GOD HAS DAUGHTERS AS WELL.

They won't get the inheritance until after their resurrection. My point remains. Are you excited? I am.

1 Peter 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,

This is about those who are in the flesh. They are born children of God. Those God calls His children. The 2nd birth Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about. Born of the Spirit.

According to Romans 8, they are not born children of God, but through a process of being conformed to the image of God's Son they become a brother to the firstborn of the dead through resurrection.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God

There's a lot of reading between the lines there. Doesn't say exactly when that happens.

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

The usage of being a son of God is different for different contexts.

 

[Runningman]

Thats your belief. You don't speak for all as if what you state is truth. It's not what all the Christain mainline churches state.
Many believe Jesus has always been the Son. So, the Son who was, the Son of Man, and the Son who is now is the very same Son.

And not everyone believes that either. Being a "Christain mainline church" isn't really a point. You're free to follow them if you wish. They were tremendously fractured on a global scale, split into (by some estimates) over 33K denominations, sub-denominations, and sects.

The glory He had in the Fathers presence before the world began, before the angels of God, before authorities and thrones were established in their heavenly places was returned to Him. He was made a little lower than the angels for a little while.

The angels existed before the world began, too. What is necessary is to demonstrate that Jesus is God, if you can. Seems it isn't a very straightforward task.

 

[Randy]

I've been told before that saying words to the effect of being "wrong" is not allowed in the forums.

Mistaken then. If your witness is that "you" are not yet a child of God then I believe you.

They won't get the inheritance until after their resurrection. My point remains. Are you excited? I am.

Is that inheritance given to the children of God or others?

1 Peter 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you,

According to Romans 8, they are not born children of God, but through a process of being conformed to the image of God's Son they become a brother to the firstborn of the dead through resurrection.

According to Jesus and John's testimony they are "born" of the Spirit as "Born" of God. Otherwise they can't enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

So, Gods plan of salvation was in place before the world began. That negates nothing I stated.

There's a lot of reading between the lines there. Doesn't say exactly when that happens.

If it doesn't happen in the flesh then you don't belong to Jesus and you are not born of God.

The usage of being a son of God is different for different contexts.

As in all the mainline "Christain" churches Jesus is that very same Son. A Son is a son.

 

[Randy]

And not everyone believes that either. Being a "Christain mainline church" isn't really a point. You're free to follow them if you wish. They were tremendously fractured on a global scale, split into (by some estimates) over 33K denominations, sub-denominations, and sects.

It shows what you state, "when people are believing in the "Son of God" they are believing in the post-resurrection Son of God" is mistaken, (not true), in regard to all the mainline Christian churches. They believe He has always been the person of the Son and that the very same Son. I don't believe what you state in how you state either.

The angels existed before the world began, too. What is necessary is to demonstrate that Jesus is God, if you can. Seems it isn't a very straightforward task.

Jesus is stated before all things in the NT and eternally begotten by the mainstream churches so again what you state doesn't speak the beliefs of all. It states your belief.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Water baptism isn't resurrection.

Agreed, but it is when and where the new creature is "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)

There is a real, literal, bodily resurrection to immortality coming.

Yes.

Jesus was the first, more will be be later. Jesus is the "firstborn" (the title of a son) of the dead -- meaning he is a Son of God by the resurrection.

Jesus was God's Son from the moment of conception.

 

[Runningman]

Mistaken then. If your witness is that "you" are not yet a child of God then I believe you.

I am a child of God, but I am not a son of the resurrection. Only Jesus is.

Is that inheritance given to the children of God or others?

According to Jesus and John's testimony they are "born" of the Spirit as "Born" of God. Otherwise they can't enter the kingdom of God.

It applies to everyone.

So, Gods plan of salvation was in place before the world began. That negates nothing I stated.

The "firstborn among many brothers." When did Jesus become the firstborn of the dead according to Colossians 1:18? It refers to the resurrection.

If it doesn't happen in the flesh then you don't belong to Jesus and you are not born of God.

It isn't about the flesh. It isn't about "children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God."

As in all the mainline "Christain" churches Jesus is that very same Son. A Son is a son.

Do you base everything you believe on what's trending in the mainline church?

 

[Runningman]

It shows what you state, "when people are believing in the "Son of God" they are believing in the post-resurrection Son of God" is mistaken, (not true), in regard to all the mainline Christian churches. They believe He has always been the person of the Son and that the very same Son. I don't believe what you state in how you state either.

It's literally a point in the gospel that Jesus is God's Son whom God raised from the dead.

Jesus is stated before all things in the NT and eternally begotten by the mainstream churches so again what you state doesn't speak the beliefs of all. It states your belief.

Refers to the context of the church. See Colossians 1:15-20 where it didn't happen until the cross. Also see Hebrews 1:1,2, 1 John 1:1,2

 

[Runningman]

Agreed, but it is when and where the new creature is "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)

Not quite. Baptism isn't literally death or resurrection, but it's symbolic of it. Obedience to the water baptism is one of the perquisites for the resurrection, as strange as that sounds, but that's exactly what Paul's point was in 1 Corinthians 15:29.

29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

The answer to the question is that the dead are in fact raised from the dead, or will be, therefore people were attempting to get baptized on their behalf so they could have a resurrection.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not quite.

Yes, quite.
The Rom 6:4 scripture I provided proved it.

Baptism isn't literally death or resurrection,

If it isn't literal, it is of no value.
I died with , was buried with, and was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

but it's symbolic of it. Obedience to the water baptism is one of the perquisites for the resurrection, as strange as that sounds, but that's exactly what Paul's point was in 1 Corinthians 15:29.
29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

I have no idea how you got obediently being water baptized from that scripture.
For one thing, folks can't get baptized for other people.

The answer to the question is that the dead are in fact raised from the dead, or will be, therefore people were attempting to get baptized on their behalf so they could have a resurrection.

What a waste of time, eh ?
The people must ,of their own accord, obey the doctrines of Godliness.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, quite.
The Rom 6:4 scripture I provided proved it.

If it isn't literal, it is of no value.
I died with , was buried with, and was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

There is a comparison being made between those who are baptized and Jesus himself. Let's go with it being literal. So can we rightly say Jesus wasn't "born of water and spirit" until his baptism? That seems to be the only way to make this literal. I can accept that if that's the case.

Romans 6
4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is a comparison being made between those who are baptized and Jesus himself.

What are you referring to ?

Let's go with it being literal. So can we rightly say Jesus wasn't "born of water and spirit" until his baptism?

Jesus was born of a woman's "water".
He had no need to be reborn of the Spirit.

That seems to be the only way to make this literal. I can accept that if that's the case.
Romans 6
4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

I have found that everyone who claims Rom 6:3-7 is only figurative or spiritual still manifests the works of the flesh that was supposedly killed and buried with Christ.
However, those who beleive it is literal actually believe their old man was destroyed .
And show it everyday in their lives walking in the Sprit instead of in the "flesh".

 

[Randy]

I am a child of God, but I am not a son of the resurrection. Only Jesus is.

You stated we became Son's at the resurrection as in not before. If you have the Spirit of Christ in you as you claim then you are a child of God. If your male then you are now God's son.

It applies to everyone.

No it doesn't apply to everyone. Only those who the Father has given Jesus as those in Christ, those God calls His children, will be raised in the resurrection of the righteous. They are the seed of Abraham, the children of the promise, and heirs according to that promise.

The "firstborn among many brothers." When did Jesus become the firstborn of the dead according to Colossians 1:18? It refers to the resurrection.

He is the first to rise from the dead in regard to the resurrection He spoke of. He is also the firstborn of all creation.
However didn't you read:" For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

It isn't about the flesh. It isn't about "children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God."

I stated born of the Spirit. And can now add born from above. Thet are those God gave the right to be called the children of God.

Do you base everything you believe on what's trending in the mainline church?

It refuted what you stated as in everyone believes as you believe. Below is what you believe. I agree with the church that Jesus has always been the Son. That is, He who descended is the very one who ascended to where He was before.

You wrote this as if it's actually the belief of all. To those of us who believe Jesus has always been the Son we are believing in that very same Son who was, and who is now.
You wrote: "When people are believing in the "Son of God" they are believing in the post-resurrection Son of God."

 

[Runningman]

What are you referring to ?

Romans 6

Jesus was born of a woman's "water".

Embryonic fluid isn't just water. That would be like saying a cup of coffee is water just because it has a water content.

It's unnecessary to inform a living person they need to be born of a woman in order to be born again.

The idea being conveyed is is water baptism and a spiritual anointing such as what Jesus received at John's water baptism of repentance:

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

He had no need to be reborn of the Spirit.

Indeed. Jesus was born from above, not born again from above.

I have found that everyone who claims Rom 6:3-7 is only figurative or spiritual still manifests the works of the flesh that was supposedly killed and buried with Christ.
However, those who beleive it is literal actually believe their old man was destroyed .
And show it everyday in their lives walking in the Sprit instead of in the "flesh".

In order to take it literal, there is a consequence that few are willing to take. It would require believing Jesus died and was resurrected at his water baptism. That means he was born again. It's theologically unsound. I hope that helps.

 

[Runningman]

You stated we became Son's at the resurrection as in not before. If you have the Spirit of Christ in you as you claim then you are a child of God. If your male then you are now God's son.

I'm a child of God before the resurrection and in the resurrection I'll be a Son of God of the resurrection. That's what Jesus taught.

No it doesn't apply to everyone. Only those who the Father has given Jesus as those in Christ, those God calls His children, will be raised in the resurrection of the righteous. They are the seed of Abraham, the children of the promise, and heirs according to that promise.

It applies to all of the true believers.

He is the first to rise from the dead in regard to the resurrection He spoke of.

Indeed.

He is also the firstborn of all creation.

Because he was created.

However didn't you read:" For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

There are different senses in the Bible in which someone is a brother of Jesus. One of them is through resurrection.

You're conflating the post-resurrection Jesus with the pre-resurrection Jesus. I think you are only just now hearing about this difference.

I stated born of the Spirit. And can now add born from above. Thet are those God gave the right to be called the children of God.

Do you believe what Jesus taught?

Luke 20
36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

It refuted what you stated as in everyone believes as you believe. Below is what you believe.

What did a trinitarian church refute?

I agree with the church that Jesus has always been the Son.

Not according to scripture.

That is, He who descended is the very one who ascended to where He was before.

Then he hasn't always been the Son. Read John 6 where Jesus compared himself to the manna from heaven. Eternal, immortal, God-manna isn't a sound doctrine.

You wrote this as if it's actually the belief of all. To those of us who believe Jesus has always been the Son we are believing in that very same Son who was, and who is now.

Jesus didn't pre-exist at as the Son. Where are you seeing that? How many times do you want to go over this?

You wrote: "When people are believing in the "Son of God" they are believing in the post-resurrection Son of God."

Correct.