Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Dmytro]

It does in my KJV of the bible.

Welcome to the site !

About the new birth I believe what Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus was literal resurrection. To be born of flesh means to be born of a fleshy mother in a fleshy body to live in this age. To be born of the Spirit means to be raised up by the Spirit of God in an immortal spiritual body at Jesus' coming and enter life of the new age and the Kingdom of God.

 

[eddif]

John 14:9 kjv
9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

About the new birth I believe what Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus was literal resurrection. To be born of flesh means to be born of a fleshy mother in a fleshy body to live in this age. To be born of the Spirit means to be raised up by the Spirit of God in an immortal spiritual body at Jesus' coming and enter life of the new age and the Kingdom of God.

I disagree.
If the new birth is the final resurrection at the return of Christ, then everyone will be "reborn".
Hardly something Jesus would go out if His way to demand...or even note.
All men are born, from their mom.
The first birth, and of water.
The second birth is of the Spirit, and occurs after our old man is crucified with Christ at our baptism into Christ and into His death and burial...from which we are also raised with Christ, from His tomb, to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)
The new man is from God's seed, (1 John 3:9-10), and is void of the characteristics of Adam's seed.

 

[Randy]

About the new birth I believe what Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus was literal resurrection. To be born of flesh means to be born of a fleshy mother in a fleshy body to live in this age. To be born of the Spirit means to be raised up by the Spirit of God in an immortal spiritual body at Jesus' coming and enter life of the new age and the Kingdom of God.

That does not follow in regard to those born of the Spirit.
This is about those still in the flesh.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Christ in us. A new creation (birth)

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

 

[Randy]

Hi all. Let me make some remarks. In the verse above most of English translations do not say 'God'. Just a fact. That verse is about the Son I believe.

Do you believe in the Son who was with the Father in the beginning or like a few here that His life began in Mary?

"He" was manifested in the flesh. - Hebrews 1 -about that Son

 

[Dmytro]

Do you believe in the Son who was with the Father in the beginning or like a few here that His life began in Mary?

"He" was manifested in the flesh. - Hebrews 1 -about that Son

Off course he was before his birth from Mary, because through him all thing were made and without him nothing was made that has been made. He was with God in the beginning.

 

[Dmytro]

I disagree.
If the new birth is the final resurrection at the return of Christ, then everyone will be "reborn".

Jesus said he will raise up and give eternal life to those whom the Father gave to him, not to everyone. All the rest will perish

The second birth is of the Spirit, and occurs after our old man is crucified with Christ at our baptism into Christ and into His death and burial...from which we are also raised with Christ, from His tomb, to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)

Rom. 6:3-4 is right. The problem is that you do not interpret it literarily but rather metaphorically. What I mean is while our literal death and resurrection are obviously still ahead there is a belief that we, somehow, have already died and been raised up in some 'spiritual' sense. This is strange. Jesus never promised us two resurrections but only one at his coming.

 

[Dmytro]

That does not follow in regard to those born of the Spirit.
This is about those still in the flesh.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Christ in us. A new creation (birth)

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

Let's first discuss John 3. How do you interpret
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

What was born of the flesh, and what must be born of the Spirit for us to be able to enter the Kingdom of God?
Do you remember some other passages from NT on this topic?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus said he will raise up and give eternal life to those whom the Father gave to him, not to everyone. All the rest will perish

Agreed, so, as I wrote earlier..."If the new birth is the final resurrection at the return of Christ, then everyone will be "reborn"." was correct.
And if rebirth is not happening on the last day at Jesus' return, then it is happening at our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life after our baptism into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-4)

Rom. 6:3-4 is right. The problem is that you do not interpret it literarily but rather metaphorically. What I mean is while our literal death and resurrection are obviously still ahead there is a belief that we, somehow, have already died and been raised up in some 'spiritual' sense. This is strange. Jesus never promised us two resurrections but only one at his coming.

I do take Rom 6:3-4, and Rom 6:5-7, literally.
If I didn't, I would still be subject to the now dead "flesh's" desires.
But I am not, because I know the "flesh" has no power over a child of God who now walks in the Spirit.
The resurrection we take part in at our Rom 6:3-4 baptism into Christ, is His resurrection.
There is still a resurrection of all mankind ahead of us.

 

[eddif]

Let's first discuss John 3. How do you interpret
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

What was born of the flesh, and what must be born of the Spirit for us to be able to enter the Kingdom of God?
Do you remember some other passages from NT on this topic?L

John 3:3 kjv
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Till you are born of the spirit a person who hears of being born again can not comprehend a spiritual birth.
Understanding parables is a mystery to them.

When I try and explain the human cerebellum as a type of the New Jerusalem
Is inside us. I generally hit a wall.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Randy]

Let's first discuss John 3. How do you interpret
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

What was born of the flesh, and what must be born of the Spirit for us to be able to enter the Kingdom of God?
Do you remember some other passages from NT on this topic?

"Born again" How can this be was asked by Nicodemus. Jesus stated flesh gives birth to flesh. Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Christ in you is Spirit. Born from "above". A new creation (birth). Those who God calls His children.
"children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God"

 

[Randy]

Off course he was before his birth from Mary, because through him all thing were made and without him nothing was made that has been made. He was with God in the beginning.

Good to know your belief as you threw me off about your statements in regard to being born from above.

 

[Dmytro]

Agreed, so, as I wrote earlier..."If the new birth is the final resurrection at the return of Christ, then everyone will be "reborn"." was correct.
And if rebirth is not happening on the last day at Jesus' return, then it is happening at our being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life after our baptism into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-4)

No, I believe that at the last day at Jesus' coming, only those whom the Father gave to him and not all mankind will be raised up. So no extra rebirth is needed. Resurrection at the last day is enough.

 

[Dmytro]

"Born again" How can this be was asked by Nicodemus. Jesus stated flesh gives birth to flesh. Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Christ in you is Spirit. Born from "above". A new creation (birth). Those who God calls His children.
"children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God"

Flesh gives birth to flesh - This means to be born in this fleshy body from parents.
The Spirit gives birth to spirit - This means to be raised up in new spiritual body by the work of the Spirit at Jesus' second coming. To be born of God and truly become a new creation. To be manifested to all as a child of God and inherit Kingdom together with Christ. Now those who belong to Jesus have the Holy Spirit sent by him. The Spirit leads them, gives power to witness and gifts to build up Christ's body but as Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:50:

50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;
and
45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit, 46 but that which is spiritual [is] not first, but that which [was] natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual.

so it belongs to us not only to receive the Spirit but also to be recreated by him, raised up.

John 3:8 what does it mean, how do you read?

 

[Randy]

Flesh gives birth to flesh - This means to be born in this fleshy body from parents.
The Spirit gives birth to spirit - This means to be raised up in new spiritual body by the work of the Spirit at Jesus' second coming. To be born of God and truly become a new creation. To be manifested to all as a child of God and inherit Kingdom together with Christ. Now those who belong to Jesus have the Holy Spirit sent by him. The Spirit leads them, gives power to witness and gifts to build up Christ's body but as Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:50:

50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;
and
45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit, 46 but that which is spiritual [is] not first, but that which [was] natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual.

so it belongs to us not only to receive the Spirit but also to be recreated by him, raised up.

John 3:8 what does it mean, how do you read?

I agree with you on flesh gives birth to flesh.

Christ in us is a "new" creation. Born from above as in born of God. Thats Born again and the answer to Nicodemus who asked about being born a 2nd time. What you speak of was not described as a 3rd birth in the NT.
This does not have a resurrection in new body context to me
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

1John3 to those in the flesh
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, I believe that at the last day at Jesus' coming, only those whom the Father gave to him and not all mankind will be raised up.

That is true, some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation

So no extra rebirth is needed. Resurrection at the last day is enough.

Can you provide a verse or two saying rebirth happens on the last day ?

 

[Dmytro]

Can you provide a verse or two saying rebirth happens on the last day ?

Rev. 1:5 calls Jesus the first-born out of the dead:

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

He is the first one raised from the dead, and here he's called the first-born from the dead so his resurrection is called birth. So we are the next to be raised/born from the dead. About references I'm not sure. But for me it's just pretty obvious that resurrection is the only real spiritual equivalent to a birth from parents, phenomenon possible to be called 2 birth.

1 birth	2 birth (resurrection/ transformation)
State before	Alive but not yet born	Dead, bound in sheol/ hades Alive at Jesus' coming
The one who gives birth	mother	The Holy Spirit
Nature of the one who gives birth	flashy	spiritual
Body is obtained	yes	yes
Nature of body	flashy	spiritual
New life entered	yes	yes
Type of life	life of this age	eternal life, Kingdom of God

For me there's nothing new or unbiblical here. It's just the modern teaching that blinds and makes unable to see the parallels.

 

[Randy]

Rev. 1:5 calls Jesus the first-born out of the dead:

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

He is the first one raised from the dead, and here he's called the first-born from the dead so his resurrection is called birth. So we are the next to be raised/born from the dead. About references I'm not sure. But for me it's just pretty obvious that resurrection is the only real spiritual equivalent to a birth from parents, phenomenon possible to be called 2 birth.

1 birth	2 birth (resurrection/ transformation)
State before	Alive but not yet born	Dead, bound in sheol/ hades Alive at Jesus' coming
The one who gives birth	mother	The Holy Spirit
Nature of the one who gives birth	flashy	spiritual
Body is obtained	yes	yes
Nature of body	flashy	spiritual
New life entered	yes	yes
Type of life	life of this age	eternal life, Kingdom of God

For me there's nothing new or unbiblical here. It's just the modern teaching that blinds and makes unable to see the parallels.

Jesus - has the Supremacy or preeminence in the creation, the church, and the resurrection.
He is the beginning of the resurrection and firstborn from the dead. (The beginning of the resurrection He spoke of and the first. (Firstborn), to rise from the dead in regard to that resurrection.)

Col 1:15-20
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[a] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in[b] him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything.

That is spoken of as the First to rise from the dead. (Firstborn) not born "again" as one who is a new creation in Christ. The 2nd birth.

 

[Dmytro]

Jesus - has the Supremacy or preeminence in the creation, the church, and the resurrection.
He is the beginning of the resurrection and firstborn from the dead. (The beginning of the resurrection He spoke of and the first. (Firstborn), to rise from the dead in regard to that resurrection.)

Col 1:15-20
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[a] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in[b] him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything.

That is spoken of as the First to rise from the dead. (Firstborn) not born "again" as one who is a new creation in Christ. The 2nd birth.

Nice quote Col 1:18. You see there are other occurrences of that 'first-born from the dead'.
So 'first-born' is used in 2 ways (there may be others:yes):

1. to describe Jesus' authority over all creation as the one and only Son of God. I mean we are also sons but he is the firstborn one and so has the supremacy. He is an heir - we are co-heirs.
2. describe him as the firstborn FROM the dead. This doesn't mean he rules over the dead, right? But that he is the BEGINNING, first one BORN from the dead, which obviously refers to his resurrection.

That is spoken of as the First to rise from the dead. (Firstborn) not born "again" as one who is a new creation in Christ. The 2nd birth.

Jesus' is referred as 'firstborn from the dead'. So his birth from Mary was the first one and birth from the dead was the second one (born again, born from above, born from God, born from the Spirit). And we, believing in him, exactly follow his way: 1 birth - from a mother, 2 one - from the dead (born again, born from above, born from God, born from the Spirit). Do you see some difficulties with Jesus being born from God? This doesn't make him inferior in nature than God the Father

 

[eddif]

No, I believe that at the last day at Jesus' coming, only those whom the Father gave to him and not all mankind will be raised up. So no extra rebirth is needed. Resurrection at the last day is enough.

So why do we disagree.

I am not really trying to convince you or anyone else of totally my way and no other way.

So sincewe all see through a glass darkly till the last trump, we need to look at every angle and discuss the problems.

(Group A non trinitarian ?)
Adam could live forever if he was in the garden eating of the tree of life. Eat of the tree of good and evil and his life would fade away and death would come. No indwelling Savior or Holy Spirit mentioned.


(Group B - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - Godhead - body soul Spirit). This group has a hundred different divisions?)

So
…………

We can look for total depravity at the time of the flood (only evil continually)? The dominion of sin broken by the flood (an early type of what?)

Jesus finally came and fulfilled the Fathers will of eternal spiritual life.

The Holy Spirit was sent so that we might have power to be witnesses about the Gospel / all things.

Where does eddif fit? Realizing I see through a glass darkly till the last trump. Realizing change will happen then. Working toward being of one mind with those who see truth. Seeing Christ in us and us in Christ.

Mississippi redneck
eddif