Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[eddif]

Nice quote Col 1:18. You see there are other occurrences of that 'first-born from the dead'.
So 'first-born' is used in 2 ways (there may be others:yes):

1. to describe Jesus' authority over all creation as the one and only Son of God. I mean we are also sons but he is the firstborn one and so has the supremacy. He is an heir - we are co-heirs.
2. describe him as the firstborn FROM the dead. This doesn't mean he rules over the dead, right? But that he is the BEGINNING, first one BORN from the dead, which obviously refers to his resurrection.

Jesus' is referred as 'firstborn from the dead'. So his birth from Mary was the first one and birth from the dead was the second one (born again, born from above, born from God, born from the Spirit). And we, believing in him, exactly follow his way: 1 birth - from a mother, 2 one - from the dead (born again, born from above, born from God, born from the Spirit). Do you see some difficulties with Jesus being born from God? This doesn't make him inferior in nature than God

Born of flesh
Born of spirit - Delivered from dominion of sin by second birth (Christ in us hope of glory)
Changed at last trump to be what we shall be.

There is so much I do not see yet.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

For those into symbolism. Ezekiel chapter 4 is about the left and right side. Viewpoints differ.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Dmytro]

Born of flesh
Born of spirit - Delivered from dominion of sin by second birth (Christ in us hope of glory)
Changed at last trump to be what we shall be.

There is so much I do not see yet.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Yes, the ones who the Holy Spirit lives in now are being led by him and belong to Christ Jesus. So they live according to the Spirit not to the flesh, and the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace Rom. 8:6. The only thing is that it is called baptism with the Spirit not a birth from the Spirit. Now we live by the Spirit in this flesh of sin. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. So at the resurrection, by the mighty work of the Holy Spirit we gonna be made fully perfect and those who are alive at that moment will be changed, get spiritual body and enter the Kingdom. The dead who belong to Christ will be delivered from sheol and raised up in spiritual bodies and enter the Kingdom. This is the second birth

 

[Dmytro]

So why do we disagree.

I am not really trying to convince you or anyone else of totally my way and no other way.

So sincewe all see through a glass darkly till the last trump, we need to look at every angle and discuss the problems.

(Group A non trinitarian ?)
Adam could live forever if he was in the garden eating of the tree of life. Eat of the tree of good and evil and his life would fade away and death would come. No indwelling Savior or Holy Spirit mentioned.


(Group B - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - Godhead - body soul Spirit). This group has a hundred different divisions?)

So
…………

We can look for total depravity at the time of the flood (only evil continually)? The dominion of sin broken by the flood (an early type of what?)

Jesus finally came and fulfilled the Fathers will of eternal spiritual life.

The Holy Spirit was sent so that we might have power to be witnesses about the Gospel / all things.

Where does eddif fit? Realizing I see through a glass darkly till the last trump. Realizing change will happen then. Working toward being of one mind with those who see truth. Seeing Christ in us and us in Christ.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Follow Jesus alone, study from him only and not from preachers, scholars or denominations. This is what I've came to. Then his words start getting clearer and clearer, you get the way, the truth, the light. We're just confused by modern teachings full of controversies. Throw everything out, come to Jesus and never leave.

Ukrainian redneck

 

[JLB]

Hi all. Let me make some remarks. In the verse above most of English translations do not say 'God'. Just a fact. That verse is about the Son I believe.

Yes this verse is about the Son, as God, becoming flesh.


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV


God - G2316 - Theos


So you believe the Greek word Theos (God) refers to a man?






JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Rev. 1:5 calls Jesus the first-born out of the dead:

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

He is the first one raised from the dead, and here he's called the first-born from the dead so his resurrection is called birth. So we are the next to be raised/born from the dead. About references I'm not sure. But for me it's just pretty obvious that resurrection is the only real spiritual equivalent to a birth from parents, phenomenon possible to be called 2 birth.

1 birth	2 birth (resurrection/ transformation)
State before	Alive but not yet born	Dead, bound in sheol/ hades Alive at Jesus' coming
The one who gives birth	mother	The Holy Spirit
Nature of the one who gives birth	flashy	spiritual
Body is obtained	yes	yes
Nature of body	flashy	spiritual
New life entered	yes	yes
Type of life	life of this age	eternal life, Kingdom of God

For me there's nothing new or unbiblical here. It's just the modern teaching that blinds and makes unable to see the parallels.

While I do see from where you have drawn you conclusions, our own rebirth is from the death of trespasses and sins.
Here are a couple of verses mentioning it..."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" Ephesians 2:1
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" Colossians 2:13
Made alive from the dead...with Christ.
That is our rebirth.

 

[Randy]

Nice quote Col 1:18. You see there are other occurrences of that 'first-born from the dead'.
So 'first-born' is used in 2 ways (there may be others:yes):

1. to describe Jesus' authority over all creation as the one and only Son of God. I mean we are also sons but he is the firstborn one and so has the supremacy. He is an heir - we are co-heirs.
2. describe him as the firstborn FROM the dead. This doesn't mean he rules over the dead, right? But that he is the BEGINNING, first one BORN from the dead, which obviously refers to his resurrection.

Jesus' is referred as 'firstborn from the dead'. So his birth from Mary was the first one and birth from the dead was the second one (born again, born from above, born from God, born from the Spirit). And we, believing in him, exactly follow his way: 1 birth - from a mother, 2 one - from the dead (born again, born from above, born from God, born from the Spirit). Do you see some difficulties with Jesus being born from God? This doesn't make him inferior in nature than God the Father

It means He is the first to rise from the dead. The beginning of that event (resurrection) and the first to rise from the dead in that resurrection. Born of God is referred to those in the flesh by John. The first birth was from their mothers womb. The 2nd birth is by the Spirit of Christ a New creation. As in "Born" "Again"
1john 3
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister

 

[eddif]

. So they live according to the Spirit not to the flesh, and the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace Rom. 8:6. The only thing is that it is called baptism with the Spirit not a birth from the Spirit.

One immersion, but maybe three aspects of baptism. Not just a ceremony, but physical creation teaching the things about God, Romans 1:20

Understanding John the Baptists baptism is much easier because there is an external
visable component. Repentance is inward though.

Internal birth is a little different. A human is birthed from a water sack. They come out of the water.

The human brain is in a water sack. This water (spinal fluid) flows past the cerebellum.
The spirit of our mind (a Google scripture) is born in us. God used anatomy to hide truth right in front of us. Without revelation it stays hidden.

There is some benefit in studying the Greek word meaning for baptism.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Randy]

About the new birth I believe what Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus was literal resurrection. To be born of flesh means to be born of a fleshy mother in a fleshy body to live in this age. To be born of the Spirit means to be raised up by the Spirit of God in an immortal spiritual body at Jesus' coming and enter life of the new age and the Kingdom of God.

To be born of God has been shown to you twice. Which you ignore. You have never heard the term "Born again Christain"? This is not something new. That birth is from above and by the Spirit. A new creation -(birth) Christ in us.
Those God calls His children. The praise from God.
John 1:13 "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God"

Same writer and He's not talking about new bodies at the resurrection but those still in the flesh. "The children of God"
1 John 3
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

You think those who are in heaven can't see the Kingdom of God until the resurrection and have not yet entered that kingdom? Have you not read if you don't have the Spirit of Christ in you then you do not belong to Him?

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I'm not sure what Born again has to do with the trinity anyway.

 

[Runningman]

About the new birth I believe what Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus was literal resurrection. To be born of flesh means to be born of a fleshy mother in a fleshy body to live in this age. To be born of the Spirit means to be raised up by the Spirit of God in an immortal spiritual body at Jesus' coming and enter life of the new age and the Kingdom of God.

But wasn't Jesus raised up as an immortal man consisting of "flesh and bone and not spirit" at his resurrection?

He was taken to heaven by God in this state and there is no mention of him losing his body in transit to the sky. By all accounts, they continued calling Jesus a man after he was taken to heaven because that is exactly what he still is; a glorified man, resurrected and immortal.

Luke 24
39Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

 

[Dmytro]

Yes this verse is about the Son, as God, becoming flesh.


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV


God - G2316 - Theos


So you believe the Greek word Theos (God) refers to a man?






JLB

'God' is only in 17 out of 63 English translations available on biblegateway. Unfortunately cannot paste screenshots here but there is no Theos in some of Greek Texts also. So let's start from Scripture not from my beliefs.

 

[Dmytro]

While I do see from where you have drawn you conclusions, our own rebirth is from the death of trespasses and sins.
Here are a couple of verses mentioning it..."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" Ephesians 2:1
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" Colossians 2:13
Made alive from the dead...with Christ.
That is our rebirth.

Yes, those verses are about the work the Holy Spirit is doing in us right now. But they are also about resurrection on the last day, read carefully. Jesus was quickened/ raised up literally and in the same way the work the Holy Spirit is doing now will be made complete on the last day at resurrection.

Rom. 8:23 And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

We're still in these fleshy bodies of sin and death and this is to be fixed. It's not without reason that flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom. Only dead are completely free from sin, so this body must die and be reborn from the Spirit for us to be able to see/ enter the Kingdom.

My conclusion is not from those verses but from what is written in gospels, understanding of John 3, epistle to Romans and 1 Cor. 15.

 

[Dmytro]

It means He is the first to rise from the dead. The beginning of that event (resurrection) and the first to rise from the dead in that resurrection. Born of God is referred to those in the flesh by John. The first birth was from their mothers womb. The 2nd birth is by the Spirit of Christ a New creation. As in "Born" "Again"
1john 3
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister

Yes, all is right except that 'born from above/ again' is not about those who are in flesh. First of all Jesus says we must be born 2-nd time, differently to what was in the first time (flesh born from flesh) otherwise we cannot enter and see the Kingdom. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom 1Cor. 15:50

50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

So 2-nd birth is different in the sense that it is from the Spirit so that what is born is spiritual. And it is we in the new body. Spiritual one. Check John 3:7-8

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

pay attention to these words: THUS IS everyone who has been born of the Spirit. Verse 8 depicts spiritual, not fleshy being.

 

[Dmytro]

But wasn't Jesus raised up as an immortal man consisting of "flesh and bone and not spirit" at his resurrection?

He definitely was. But then check Revelation and what he looked like at that time. The rule is the same for everybody both Jesus and us:

1Cor. 15:50
50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

And also: God is spirit. So those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. For such worshipers he is seeking to him.

By all accounts, they continued calling Jesus a man after he was taken to heaven because that is exactly what he still is; a glorified man, resurrected and immortal.

I don't think he's a man. He is deity, that same as the Father is. Now we hit the Trinity topic

 

[Dmytro]

To be born of God has been shown to you twice. Which you ignore.

Ah, no. Don't wanna waste my time on arguments of such a kind. Bye Randy.

 

[Dmytro]

Internal birth is a little different. A human is birthed from a water sack. They come out of the wate

The problem is in our fleshy nature. According to Romans our bodies are bodies of sin and death and there is no other solution to this except death. The sentence is: our old self must die. Glory to God we're not alone but the Holy Spirit helps and leads us now.

Rom 8:1-2
8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;

No internal birth can solve this problem. Our current state when we're led by the Spirit while living in our old bodies of sin and death is transitional and I personally am waiting for redemption of the body

Rom 8:23 And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

Resurrection is prescribed to us by God himself

 

[eddif]

The problem is in our fleshy nature. According to Romans our bodies are bodies of sin and death and there is no other solution to this except death. The sentence is: our old self must die. Glory to God we're not alone but the Holy Spirit helps and leads us now.

Rom 8:1-2
8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;

No internal birth can solve this problem. Our current state when we're led by the Spirit while living in our old bodies of sin and death is transitional and I personally am waiting for redemption of the body

Rom 8:23 And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

Resurrection is prescribed to us by God himself

The spirit of our mind begins inside our mind / cerebellum? The New Jerusalem has a tree on either side of a river clear as crystal. A midsection dissection of the cerebellum looks like a tree. We are not made without imagery. Let us make man in our image.
Romans 1:20

The conversation with Nicodemus conversation is about symbols hiding truth.

The law is placed in our hearts and minds. The law is spiritual. The heart and brain are in water sacks. LOL

eddif

 

[Runningman]

He definitely was. But then check Revelation and what he looked like at that time. The rule is the same for everybody both Jesus and us:

1Cor. 15:50
50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

and yet it doesn’t say spirit inherits the kingdom of God either. So who or what do you believe Jesus is now?

And also: God is spirit. So those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. For such worshipers he is seeking to him.

Amen. Jesus prescribed worship, prayer, and fasting only to the Father in his teachings.

I don't think he's a man. He is deity, that same as the Father is. Now we hit the Trinity topic

Many of the books and letters, written some decades after Jesus was taken to heaven, call Jesus a man, i.e., 1 Tim 2:5.

Seems it would stand to reason if they kept calling Jesus a man then they believed he’s a man in heaven.

Sure we can talk about the Trinity if you like. I am a non-Trinitarian btw.

 

[JLB]

'God' is only in 17 out of 63 English translations available on biblegateway. Unfortunately cannot paste screenshots here but there is no Theos in some of Greek Texts also. So let's start from Scripture not from my beliefs.

The Greek word for God in the text is Theos, as in Theology.

Theos = God

 

[Randy]

Yes, all is right except that 'born from above/ again' is not about those who are in flesh. First of all Jesus says we must be born 2-nd time, differently to what was in the first time (flesh born from flesh) otherwise we cannot enter and see the Kingdom. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom 1Cor. 15:50

50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

So 2-nd birth is different in the sense that it is from the Spirit so that what is born is spiritual. And it is we in the new body. Spiritual one. Check John 3:7-8

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

pay attention to these words: THUS IS everyone who has been born of the Spirit. Verse 8 depicts spiritual, not fleshy being.

"Born of God" is not born of the flesh.
As John wrote to those in the flesh who were born of God. Christ in us. A new creation.
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
"Born" Again
This is the 3rd time this has been shown to you which you appear to ignore.

Bye Dmyto - Your free to believe as you believe - We disagree and it seems it will be a continuous disagreement. We don't need to debate anymore.