Why Two Sickles?

[Ret]

WW, in Revelation 12, it only speaks of one woman. (although she is mentioned more than ones as "the woman" )

If you are speaking about spiritual Israel then I agree, but its better on a forum to maybe just say "church" because then people will not get confused (by now many are anyway LOL )

Two woman grinding: Here we have the Bride and the Harlot (that is correct) (grinding flour, making bread. One without leaven and the other with leaven)
Two men in the field : Body of Christ and body of antichrist. Field = world

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world;

C...I agree that both times 'woman' is used in Rev 12 is referring to the same 'woman'. When talking about a 'collective' group, yes 'church' is better. The 'two men' in the field sounds like one person who is trying to be married to both Christ and the World at the same time. Field = space/place that does NOT know Jesus Christ as the Son of God

In the following are 2 personalities in 1 house...that 1 house is ME

Rom 7:25-8:1
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself
with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin. ASV

Ever feel CONFLICTED....? Starting in Gen 3:15 we are told there would be 'ENMITY' - WAR between the seed of Christ and the seed of Satan. In this house of flesh we have the seed of both Christ and Satan, and the war is going on. I ... yes ... I am 2 women, living in 1 house! When I live 'IN CHRIST', the fleshly-spirit-woman is 'dead' and remains 'dead', thereby does NOT REIGN/CONTROL till this fleshly body is changed from that which is 'NATURAL' to that which is 'SPIRITUAL' 1 Cor 15:44 then the 'dead fleshly body is gone forever.....AMEN!

C, and WW, I do appreciate your comments, and evaluations ... :yes

 

[whirlwind]

WW, in Revelation 12, it only speaks of one woman. (although she is mentioned more than ones as "the woman" )

If you are speaking about spiritual Israel then I agree, but its better on a forum to maybe just say "church" because then people will not get confused (by now many are anyway LOL )

Two woman grinding: Here we have the Bride and the Harlot (that is correct) (grinding flour, making bread. One without leaven and the other with leaven)
Two men in the field : Body of Christ and body of antichrist. Field = world

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world;

Yes....they are in the field, the world. Two of them, two women. One believing the deception and the other...not believing it. The one with leaven is...."the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth." The other is the one that "the dragon was wroth with." The one that has the testimony of Jesus Christ. This lesson is an example of the flood from Satan's mouth and that same flood tells us about the (same?) two women grinding in the field. They describe the same event.


This looks like another of those we won't find any resolution on but....let me try one more thing. Do you remember the discussion we had about the 144,000? They are two separate groups but no one would know that unless we questioned every word in the verses. With the two women...we already know there are Biblically two women God describes so the questioning to me is....how is the church helped by others believing Satan's lies?


To see the woman as the church (Israel...God's family ) to be in some way helped by those falling for the deception we must have a reason. There is none as far as I can see. Others being deceived doesn't help her. The logical conclusion, to me, is that there are the Biblical "two women" being discussed here.

 

[Ret]

As soon as Jesus was baptized in water and Spirit He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, to be tempted of the Devil (Mt. 3:16; 4:1). (Mark 1:12 the spirit 'driveth' Him forth into the wilderness...I believe both LED and DRIVEN are true..R)This is our example, and it is supposed to be the normal Christian life. Abiding in Christ is to walk as He walked (1 Jn. 1:6). However, the experience of the majority is that we must be driven as goats, by the beast, into the wilderness trial like the woman in Revelation 12:4, 6, 13, 14. God's people are like the Israelites who would rather serve the Egyptians (old man) in Egypt (world: Ex. 14:10-12), than sacrifice their old life in the wilderness (Ex. 7:16). The god of this world wants us to make a worldly sacrifice in Egypt (Ex. 8:25) like Cain's sacrifice, which was from the earth and not acceptable to God (Gen. 4:2-5). The wilderness sacrifice is a burnt offering of fleshly dependency, fleshly ability and fleshly ingenuity. Sacrificing these and putting your trust completely in God is an abomination to the Egyptians (world: Ex. 8:26). That's why the Israelites had to be driven into the wilderness by Pharaoh's army. The Lord showed me many years ago that it pleased Him for us to be led to the wilderness willingly and there to learn that the arm of the flesh was a hindrance to growing in the ways of God (Jer. 17:5-8). God doesn't want your help to save you, heal you, deliver you, provide for you, or protect you. He wants your faith.

The wilderness symbolizes the place where there is no help from man. Self has been our goal and savior but we must repent, for there must be no other god before the true God. Self-sufficiency has always brought a curse.

I believe the 'wilderness' spiritually seen, has three parts, all seen in the journeys of Israel.
Those that 'dwell on the earth' live in the 'wilderness'. A wilderness that has no geographical location, rather is spiritually discerned. I can be in downtown LA, DC or NY and still be in the wilderness...No?

....A. 40 years in the 'wilderness' traveling from Egypt to Canaan.
....B. 400 years (aprox) IN EGYPT
....C. 70 years in BABYLON (Northern tribes went to Assyria/have not returned)

CONCLUSION:
A. 40 yrs wilderness/wandering - spiritually children learning who God IS and IS NOT!
B. IN EGYPT - major problem with IDOLATRY - the adolescent, young adult phase
C. IN BABYLON - IDOLATRY mixed with SORCERY - maturity, tested with prosperity

 

[whirlwind]

As soon as Jesus was baptized in water and Spirit He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, to be tempted of the Devil (Mt. 3:16; 4:1). This is our example, and it is supposed to be the normal Christian life. Abiding in Christ is to walk as He walked (1 Jn. 1:6). However, the experience of the majority is that we must be driven as goats, by the beast, into the wilderness trial like the woman in Revelation 12:4, 6, 13, 14. God's people are like the Israelites who would rather serve the Egyptians (old man) in Egypt (world: Ex. 14:10-12), than sacrifice their old life in the wilderness (Ex. 7:16). The god of this world wants us to make a worldly sacrifice in Egypt (Ex. 8:25) like Cain's sacrifice, which was from the earth and not acceptable to God (Gen. 4:2-5). The wilderness sacrifice is a burnt offering of fleshly dependency, fleshly ability and fleshly ingenuity. Sacrificing these and putting your trust completely in God is an abomination to the Egyptians (world: Ex. 8:26). That's why the Israelites had to be driven into the wilderness by Pharaoh's army. The Lord showed me many years ago that it pleased Him for us to be led to the wilderness willingly and there to learn that the arm of the flesh was a hindrance to growing in the ways of God (Jer. 17:5-8). God doesn't want your help to save you, heal you, deliver you, provide for you, or protect you. He wants your faith.

The wilderness symbolizes the place where there is no help from man. Self has been our goal and savior but we must repent, for there must be no other god before the true God. Self-sufficiency has always brought a curse.

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... ?page=hm08

I believe we are in the wilderness right now and if not....soon. I've never considered it being a place "where there is no help from man" but.... :yes In this spiritual wilderness, the place He prepared for us...we are fed but there are two feeding us, even though we are "away from the face of the serpent (and I'm not at all sure what that means)." This is where......


Malchi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

[whirlwind]

WW, in Revelation 12, it only speaks of one woman. (although she is mentioned more than ones as "the woman" )

If you are speaking about spiritual Israel then I agree, but its better on a forum to maybe just say "church" because then people will not get confused (by now many are anyway LOL )

Two woman grinding: Here we have the Bride and the Harlot (that is correct) (grinding flour, making bread. One without leaven and the other with leaven)
Two men in the field : Body of Christ and body of antichrist. Field = world

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world;

C...I agree that both times 'woman' is used in Rev 12 is referring to the same 'woman'. When talking about a 'collective' group, yes 'church' is better. The 'two men' in the field sounds like one person who is trying to be married to both Christ and the World at the same time. Field = space/place that does NOT know Jesus Christ as the Son of God

In the following are 2 personalities in 1 house...that 1 house is ME

Rom 7:25-8:1
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself
with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin. ASV

Ever feel CONFLICTED....? Starting in Gen 3:15 we are told there would be 'ENMITY' - WAR between the seed of Christ and the seed of Satan. In this house of flesh we have the seed of both Christ and Satan, and the war is going on. I ... yes ... I am 2 women, living in 1 house! When I live 'IN CHRIST', the fleshly-spirit-woman is 'dead' and remains 'dead', thereby does NOT REIGN/CONTROL till this fleshly body is changed from that which is 'NATURAL' to that which is 'SPIRITUAL' 1 Cor 15:44 then the 'dead fleshly body is gone forever.....AMEN!

C, and WW, I do appreciate your comments, and evaluations ... :yes

I must disagree in that the two in the field are the same person dealing with conflicting goals. That battle, of the flesh dying, is one we fight but when "the flood came and took them all away," it is more than an inner conflict. I see the division as a literal division in groups of those being taken by deception and those waiting for the true Savior, not a division of self.

Are you a psycholgist, psychiatrist in your life, you know....the life outside of the forum?

 

[Ret]

I believe we are in the wilderness right now and if not....soon. I've never considered it being a place "where there is no help from man" but.... :yes In this spiritual wilderness, the place He prepared for us...we are fed but there are two feeding us, even though we are "away from the face of the serpent (and I'm not at all sure what that means)." This is where......

Malchi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

I had some thoughts on 'wilderness' in my last post. As you were just a few minutes later with this one, I don't think you caught it before posting this...your doing good to keep up!

face = presence > if you are in the 'face' of someone, you are in their presence. That doesn't always work reverse.

Ok...I'm the dense..'two feeding us'...Elijah? and who?

 

[MMarc]

Does two sickles= a bicycle? :D

Seriously, let's look at the prince of the prophets Isaiah. 63

3 “ I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.

Rev 19

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

The Lord gathers the "wild grapes" and takes care of business... And I do believe they also represent the ''tares'' by another name is all.

 

[Ret]

I must disagree in that the two in the field are the same person dealing with conflicting goals. That battle, of the flesh dying, is one we fight but when "the flood came and took them all away," it is more than an inner conflict. I see the division as a literal division in groups of those being taken by deception and those waiting for the true Savior, not a division of self.

The illustration in Matthew 24:38,39 "the flood came and took them all away," is in the middle of a time of prosperity when Noah was building the ark. Yes, your thought about it being 'a literal division in groups'...'taken by deception'...is just as valid as my thought based on one's own internal conflict.

Often I have thought about the 'two in the field' and 'one taken' - 'one left' and do see myself as being both. Between me and God, this thought gives me not to worry about part of ME is being 'left' and 'part' taken. I take comfort in this understanding.

ME - I am... 'DUST' (returns to the earth)...and 'SPIRIT' (returns to God who gave it). Eccl 12:6-7
The 'outward man decaying' the 'inward man renewed day by day'. 2 Cor 4:16-17

 

[Ret]

The Lord gathers the "wild grapes" and takes care of business... And I do believe they also represent the ''tares'' by another name is all.

Hummm, ...is something fomenting....?

Prov 23:31-32
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, When it sparkleth in the cup,
When it goeth down smoothly:
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, And stingeth like an adder. ASV

Think I am getting to tired to think...

 

[Cornelius]

. The 'two men' in the field sounds like one person who is trying to be married to both Christ and the World at the same time. Field = space/place that does NOT know Jesus Christ as the Son of God

Ret, the Bible does give the meaning of the word "field" to us:

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world;

So Jesus is saying: There are only two MEN in the world (field) from the viewpoint of God. Those who are in Christ (Body of Christ= 1st Man) and those who are against Christ, or anti Christ (The body of antiChrist = 2nd Man )

God wants us to see that its really black and white from His point of view. One man will be taken and obviously the other will not.

Now the same picture is drawn by using two "women" . Now God is showing us that there are only two religions in the world. The church and the Harlot.(False religion) So again, this is not a difficult picture. its meant to simplify our view , so that we can easily understand how God views it.

 

[Cornelius]

Ok...I'm the dense..'two feeding us'...Elijah? and who?

Its not complicated, it simply means that God will restore the true leadership to the church . Think back how it was in the New Testament church when Paul was around. He went around "feeding" the church too at that time. Now this is going to happen again. The "man child" in Rev 12 is simply "code" for that leadership.

We can obviously see how scattered the church is at this moment. Well , God has prophesied this (read about the "daughters of Zion" ;denomination ) but He also prophesied that it will be restored in the end times. (where we are now) . God will now restore true leadership (not leadership where men take authority over His people, because they have studied for it, but a leadership that are called and anointed from God)

So we will be "fed" (the true Word) in the "wilderness" (tribulation)

 

[MMarc]

Ok...I'm the dense..'two feeding us'...Elijah? and who?

Its not complicated, it simply means that God will restore the true leadership to the church . Think back how it was in the New Testament church when Paul was around. He went around "feeding" the church too at that time. Now this is going to happen again. The "man child" in Rev 12 is simply "code" for that leadership.

We can obviously see how scattered the church is at this moment. Well , God has prophesied this (read about the "daughters of Zion" ;denomination ) but He also prophesied that it will be restored in the end times. (where we are now) . God will now restore true leadership (not leadership where men take authority over His people, because they have studied for it, but a leadership that are called and anointed from God)

So we will be "fed" (the true Word) in the "wilderness" (tribulation)

Good points C.

I see these saints who feed those in the wilderness to be more "prophets" who come from the wilderness or without the camp if you will.

Without ''Lording'' over the church, this type of people I see mostly in ministries and not as much in organised denominations.

 

[whirlwind]

I believe we are in the wilderness right now and if not....soon. I've never considered it being a place "where there is no help from man" but.... :yes In this spiritual wilderness, the place He prepared for us...we are fed but there are two feeding us, even though we are "away from the face of the serpent (and I'm not at all sure what that means)." This is where......

Malchi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

I had some thoughts on 'wilderness' in my last post. As you were just a few minutes later with this one, I don't think you caught it before posting this...your doing good to keep up!

face = presence > if you are in the 'face' of someone, you are in their presence. That doesn't always work reverse.

Ok...I'm the dense..'two feeding us'...Elijah? and who?

If the Holy Spirit was only one feeding us then our time in this wilderness wouldn't be a trial or a time of temptation. He warns us about taking sustenance from the other one.....


Jeremiah 27:9-10 Therefore hearken not ye to YOUR prophets, nor to YOUR diviners, nor to YOUR dreamers, nor to YOUR enchanters, nor to YOUR sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, 'Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon: For they prophesy and lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.

When do the false prophets teach? Now and during our time in the wilderness.

Deuteronomy 8:15-16 Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; Who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint; Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that He might humble thee, and that He might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;

Judges 8:7 And Gideon said, "Therefore when the LORD hath delivered Zebah and Zalmunna into mine hand, then I will tear your flesh with the thorns of the wilderness and with briers." (16) And he took the elders of the city, and thorns of the wilderness and briers, and with them he taught the men of Succoth.

Those thorns you wrote off last week are also in the wilderness...teaching......

Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. KJV

Here...THORNS are people who vex and harass. Think of all the problems Paul had with people in his own country, constantly trying to trip him up and take his life or worse yet, false apostles who appeared to be 'apostles of Christ' 2 Cor 11:13.

Psalms 95:8-9 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, And as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted Me, Proved Me, and saw My work.

Lamentations 4:19 Our persecutors are swifter than the eagles of the heaven: they pursued us upon the mountains, they laid wait for us in the wilderness.

 

[whirlwind]

I must disagree in that the two in the field are the same person dealing with conflicting goals. That battle, of the flesh dying, is one we fight but when "the flood came and took them all away," it is more than an inner conflict. I see the division as a literal division in groups of those being taken by deception and those waiting for the true Savior, not a division of self.

The illustration in Matthew 24:38,39 "the flood came and took them all away," is in the middle of a time of prosperity when Noah was building the ark. Yes, your thought about it being 'a literal division in groups'...'taken by deception'...is just as valid as my thought based on one's own internal conflict.

Often I have thought about the 'two in the field' and 'one taken' - 'one left' and do see myself as being both. Between me and God, this thought gives me not to worry about part of ME is being 'left' and 'part' taken. I take comfort in this understanding.

ME - I am... 'DUST' (returns to the earth)...and 'SPIRIT' (returns to God who gave it). Eccl 12:6-7
The 'outward man decaying' the 'inward man renewed day by day'. 2 Cor 4:16-17

It is wonderful to take comfort from that knowledge. That is the His Peace we rest in.

 

[Ret]

Field = space/place that does NOT know Jesus Christ as the Son of God

Ret, the Bible does give the meaning of the word "field" to us:

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world;

C....True in the parable Jesus gave ...Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; Though, I can't say 'FIELD' symbolically....in scripture always....means 'WORLD'

Prov 24:30 I went by the field of the slothful,

Matt 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. KJV

Elsewhere 'FIELD' is a kind of property, that usually has "OWNERSHIP"...land that is bought and sold.
Field of Ephron (Abraham purchased), field of Edom, Joshua, Naboth, Moab...etc.

 

[Ret]

So we will be "fed" (the true Word) in the "wilderness" (tribulation)

I could agree with this..

So Jesus is saying: There are only two MEN in the world (field) from the viewpoint of God. Those who are in Christ (Body of Christ= 1st Man) and those who are against Christ, or anti Christ (The body of antiChrist = 2nd Man )

Agreed...if you are saying 'antiChrist = Satan/Devil
also world/field/earth would be interchangable within this understanding...R

 

[Cornelius]

Field = space/place that does NOT know Jesus Christ as the Son of God

Ret, the Bible does give the meaning of the word "field" to us:

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world;

C....True in the parable Jesus gave ...Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; Though, I can't say 'FIELD' symbolically....in scripture always....means 'WORLD'

Prov 24:30 I went by the field of the slothful,

Matt 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. KJV

Elsewhere 'FIELD' is a kind of property, that usually has "OWNERSHIP"...land that is bought and sold.
Field of Ephron (Abraham purchased), field of Edom, Joshua, Naboth, Moab...etc.

Well we can always complicate something that is simple if we want to but in this case its ease to understand. When we look at what the rest of Scripture teaches, then its clear that in this case, in context, it simply means the world. Why? Because there really are only two "men" in the world.

1)Body of Christ
2)Body of antiChrist

Do you know of any more "men" ? Of course not, there are only these two spiritual "men" in the world.

 

[Cornelius]

Good points C.

I see these saints who feed those in the wilderness to be more "prophets" who come from the wilderness or without the camp if you will.

Without ''Lording'' over the church, this type of people I see mostly in ministries and not as much in organised denominations.

Yes the "man child" ministry will not be Nicolaitan as we see in today's denominations. They are "outside the camp" as you say. It will be the whole five fold ministry restored.

 

[Ret]

Ok...I'm the dense..'two feeding us'...Elijah? and who?

If the Holy Spirit was only one feeding us then our time in this wilderness wouldn't be a trial or a time of temptation. He warns us about taking sustenance from the other one.....

Jeremiah 27:9-10 Therefore hearken not ye to YOUR prophets, nor to YOUR diviners, nor to YOUR dreamers, nor to YOUR enchanters, nor to YOUR sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, 'Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon: For they prophesy and lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.

Think I follow your thought 'two feeding us'. Interesting ....one of the angels going before Israel, leading them to the land of Canaan does 'NOT pardon your transgression' Exodus 23:20-21

20 Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way,
and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Take ye heed before him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not;
for he will not pardon your transgression: for my name is in him. ASV

 

[Ret]

... there really are only two "men" in the world.

1)Body of Christ
2)Body of antiChrist

Do you know of any more "men" ? Of course not, there are only these two spiritual "men" in the world.

C... are you saying 'antiChrist = Satan/Devil?

I see the 'two men' as
........one is CHRIST
........one is SATAN.

SATAN...has two forms
........one - 'roaring lion'
........one - come as an 'angel of light' = the antichrist.