Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Doulos Iesou]

Look at the great white throne judgment and show me where the unbelievers SINS are mentioned. It is their ergon, works. No mention of hamartia,sins.

Well, you just about ignored every other bit of my argument here, but let's bring about some other Scriptures that absolutely contradict your position. We don't make a doctrine of the final judgement just out of Revelation 20.

For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ec 12:14).

First of all, I wanted to demonstrate that this teaching of the final judgement is consistent throughout both testaments, that all deeds, whether good or bad are brought into the light and men are judged according to their works or deeds.. what THEY did.. which includes sins, not just the sin (singular) of rejecting Jesus.

I already quoted Romans 2 which you have yet to deal with.. if you don't deal with it again then I will give a more fleshed out exposition, as I think it is maybe the text that further disproves your position.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, in order that each one may receive back the things through the body according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Co 5:10).

Everyone, including believers are going to appear before the judgement seat of Christ, for what reason? In order to receive back the things done through the body.. which means the things that we did in our bodies we will receive a recompense for, whether reward or punishment. This judgement will be according to our deeds.. what we have done.. whether good or BAD.

88.116 φαῦλος, η, ον: pertaining to being evil in the sense of moral baseness—‘mean, bad, evil.’ πᾶς γὰρ ὁ φαῦλα πράσσων μισεῖ τὸ φῶς ‘anyone who does mean things hates the light’ Jn 3:20.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (754). New York: United Bible Societies.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, ⌊and seven others⌋ when he* brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, 6 and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly, 7 and rescued righteous Lot, worn down by the way of life of lawless persons in licentiousness 8 (for that righteous man, as he lived among them day after day, was tormenting his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he was seeing and hearing), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to reserve the unrighteous to be punished at the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who go after the flesh in defiling lust and who despise authority. (2 Pe 2:4–10).

Notice the day of judgement is going to be especially terrible for those who go after the "defiling lust and who despise authority." If they are being punished in a worse manner for their sins that were dealt with on the Cross, how is God's justice operating correctly?

Or notice that Sodom and Gomorrah and the people at the time of Noah still serve as an example of the result of sinfulness and ungodliness, that they will be destroyed, in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah the eternal fire reduced them to ashes, that they were appointed to be as example of what would befall the ungodly.

And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about these people, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jud 14–15).

God is going to execute judgement, referring to "these people" which is the ungodly, and more specifically those who ended up rejecting Jesus (after once believing see .v5-6 using the unbelieving Israelites in the wilderness and the angels who sinned against God but now were in chains waiting to undergo the final punishment) were going to be judged concerning their "ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way," "all the harsh things that the ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

This judgement that is to come, is certainly taking into account their sins, their ungodly deeds, not just their rejection of Jesus.

I did not affirm YOUR definition death.

What does death mean then?

 

[gr8grace]

Look at the great white throne judgment and show me where the unbelievers SINS are mentioned. It is their ergon, works. No mention of hamartia,sins.

Well, you just about ignored every other bit of my argument here, but let's bring about some other Scriptures that absolutely contradict your position. We don't make a doctrine of the final judgement just out of Revelation 20.

For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ec 12:14).

First of all, I wanted to demonstrate that this teaching of the final judgement is consistent throughout both testaments, that all deeds, whether good or bad are brought into the light and men are judged according to their works or deeds.. what THEY did.. which includes sins, not just the sin (singular) of rejecting Jesus.

I already quoted Romans 2 which you have yet to deal with.. if you don't deal with it again then I will give a more fleshed out exposition, as I think it is maybe the text that further disproves your position.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, in order that each one may receive back the things through the body according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Co 5:10).

Everyone, including believers are going to appear before the judgement seat of Christ, for what reason? In order to receive back the things done through the body.. which means the things that we did in our bodies we will receive a recompense for, whether reward or punishment. This judgement will be according to our deeds.. what we have done.. whether good or BAD.

88.116 φαῦλος, η, ον: pertaining to being evil in the sense of moral baseness—‘mean, bad, evil.’ πᾶς γὰρ ὁ φαῦλα πράσσων μισεῖ τὸ φῶς ‘anyone who does mean things hates the light’ Jn 3:20.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (754). New York: United Bible Societies.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a proclaimer of righteousness, ⌊and seven others⌋ when he* brought a flood on the world of the ungodly, 6 and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those who are going to be ungodly, 7 and rescued righteous Lot, worn down by the way of life of lawless persons in licentiousness 8 (for that righteous man, as he lived among them day after day, was tormenting his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he was seeing and hearing), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to reserve the unrighteous to be punished at the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who go after the flesh in defiling lust and who despise authority. (2 Pe 2:4–10).

Notice the day of judgement is going to be especially terrible for those who go after the "defiling lust and who despise authority." If they are being punished in a worse manner for their sins that were dealt with on the Cross, how is God's justice operating correctly?

Or notice that Sodom and Gomorrah and the people at the time of Noah still serve as an example of the result of sinfulness and ungodliness, that they will be destroyed, in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah the eternal fire reduced them to ashes, that they were appointed to be as example of what would befall the ungodly.

And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about these people, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jud 14–15).

God is going to execute judgement, referring to "these people" which is the ungodly, and more specifically those who ended up rejecting Jesus (after once believing see .v5-6 using the unbelieving Israelites in the wilderness and the angels who sinned against God but now were in chains waiting to undergo the final punishment) were going to be judged concerning their "ungodly deeds that they have committed in an ungodly way," "all the harsh things that the ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

This judgement that is to come, is certainly taking into account their sins, their ungodly deeds, not just their rejection of Jesus.

I did not affirm YOUR definition death.

What does death mean then?

So where are SINS mentioned? You have just mentioned good and evil. My friend, what is evil?

All sin is evil, but not all evil is Sin.

Heb 5:14 NASB~~But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

How close are Good and evil, if it takes a mature discerning believer to determine between the two?

And the Great White Throne Judgement is the unbelievers failing opportunity to weigh their "Good" before the Cross. And most will have no Idea that Their "Good" was actually Evil in the Lords eyes.

And in my opinion, the Great White Throne Judgement will be people that thought they could earn their way, or believed that their salvation depended upon something that they had to "keep" or "work on".

Their deeds look really good to me and you. Mission trips, feeding the poor, cleaning up this world,getting prayer back in school....the list goes on. BUT if people are relying on that for their salvation, it is EVIL in our Lords eyes and they will get to measure their "good deeds" to Christs saving Deed on the Cross.


The Judgement seat of Christ is the Bema seat....believers only.

The Great white throne Judgement is for unbelievers only.

 

[Guest]

The Judgement seat of Christ is the Bema seat....believers only.

The Great white throne Judgement is for unbelievers only.

I thought the Bema seat is part of the GWTJ. Where in scripture does this say otherwise. Blessings.

 

[gr8grace]

The Judgement seat of Christ is the Bema seat....believers only.

The Great white throne Judgement is for unbelievers only.

I thought the Bema seat is part of the GWTJ. Where in scripture does this say otherwise. Blessings.

2 Cor 5:10 is the Bema seat and the Believers Judgement. the GWTJ is the unbelievers Judgment.

The Bema seat is not seen as a "judgement" though. It is a rewards ceremony. some for a lot and some for a little.

 

[Guest]

The Judgement seat of Christ is the Bema seat....believers only.

The Great white throne Judgement is for unbelievers only.

I thought the Bema seat is part of the GWTJ. Where in scripture does this say otherwise. Blessings.

2 Cor 5:10 is the Bema seat and the Believers Judgement. the GWTJ is the unbelievers Judgment.

The Bema seat is not seen as a "judgement" though. It is a rewards ceremony. some for a lot and some for a little.

2 Cor 5:10 says for we must all appear, doesn't mean unbelievers too? What scripture states that the GWTJ is for unbelievers only.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So where are SINS mentioned? You have just mentioned good and evil. My friend, what is evil?

All sin is evil, but not all evil is Sin.

Heb 5:14 NASB~~But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

First of all, these are different Greek words being used here, in Ecclesiasties we have in the LXX πονηρός, here is a Lexicon definition for you of this term.

88.110 πονηρόςa, ά, όν: pertaining to being morally corrupt and evil—‘immoral, evil, wicked.’ ὅταν … εἴπωσιν πᾶν πονηρὸν καθʼ ὑμῶν ‘when … they tell all kinds of evil things against you’ Mt 5:11. In translating Mt 5:11 it is important to indicate that the words spoken are not evil in themselves, but the content of what is spoken involves attributing evil and wicked deeds to the followers of Jesus. It may, therefore, be necessary to say in some languages ‘when men speak against you by saying that you have done wicked deeds.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (753). New York: United Bible Societies.

You see this term in this context is referring to evil deeds.

In Hebrews 5:14 it is the Greek word κακός which isn't as strong as these others.

88.106 κακόςa, ή, όν; κακῶςa: pertaining to being bad, with the implication of harmful and damaging—‘bad, evil, harmful, harshly.’
κακόςa: κακοὺς κακῶς ἀπολέσει αὐτούς ‘he will harshly destroy those bad men’ Mt 21:41.
κακῶςa: ἄρχοντα τοῦ λαοῦ σου οὐκ ἐρεῖς κακῶς ‘you must not speak in an evil manner about the ruler of your people’ Ac 23:5. The implication in Ac 23:5 is that one must not speak in such a way as ‘to cause harm to.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (753). New York: United Bible Societies.

You see this "evil" is the kind of evil that causes harm to someone, it's not talking about wicked deeds like others.

Your proof texts therefore fails to draw a contrast between the kind of evil I am referring to and sin.

And the Great White Throne Judgement is the unbelievers failing opportunity to weigh their "Good" before the Cross. And most will have no Idea that Their "Good" was actually Evil in the Lords eyes.

Those who suffer the final punishment didn't have their works measure up to the Cross? First of all, this measuring up to the Cross is never mentioned, also let's examine another text that describes those who suffer this final fate.

But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death. (Re 21:8).

Tell me gr8grace, what are these people who suffer the final punishment being distinguished as? They are distinguished by their deeds! That those who commit murder.. sexual immorality.. idolatry.. lying.. etc. etc. will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. They do so because of these evil deeds, because God is just and will punish them according to what they have done. You see the word ἔργον (works, deeds) as mentioned in Revelation 20 does not signify either good works or bad works, but it has in mind ALL OF THEIR WORKS, everything being done in secret being brought into light to be judged.

Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked, for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap, 8 because the one who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.(Ga 6:7–8).

You reap what you sow, meaning your actions will bring about a certain end and reaping of the flesh, which is sin, will reap corruption of the flesh.. which is death.

And in my opinion, the Great White Throne Judgement will be people that thought they could earn their way, or believed that their salvation depended upon something that they had to "keep" or "work on".

What exactly is your opinion built on except eisegesis (reading into the text)? The Greek does not support your position, neither does any other passage that speaks about the final punishment, all of them are unanimous in that we are judged according to all our deeds, good or bad.

These people are said to be murders, idolaters, liars, sexually immoral.. not people who seem to be trying to climb the moral ladder as you presume.

Their deeds look really good to me and you.

Does that list in Revelation 21:8 look really good to you? Because that is the kind of people are thrown into the lake of fire according to the Bible. This statement from you is nothing but unbiblical speculation.

Mission trips, feeding the poor, cleaning up this world,getting prayer back in school....the list goes on.

Actually in Matthew 25.. God says these are the very things they DIDN'T DO!

Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! 42 For I was hungry and you did not give me anything* to eat, I was thirsty and you did not give me anything* to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not care for me.’
(Mt 25:41–43).

It's simply incredible how contrary to Scripture everything you are saying is...

The Judgement seat of Christ is the Bema seat....believers only.

The Great white throne Judgement is for unbelievers only.

What Scripture do you base this off of, in John 5:22 it says that the Father will judge no one but he has given all authority to judge over to Jesus. Jesus will sit on the throne of Judgement and Judge not just his people, but everyone.

Also you failed to mention what "death" means in the Bible.

 

[gr8grace]

The Judgement seat of Christ is the Bema seat....believers only.

The Great white throne Judgement is for unbelievers only.

I thought the Bema seat is part of the GWTJ. Where in scripture does this say otherwise. Blessings.

2 Cor 5:10 is the Bema seat and the Believers Judgement. the GWTJ is the unbelievers Judgment.

The Bema seat is not seen as a "judgement" though. It is a rewards ceremony. some for a lot and some for a little.

2 Cor 5:10 says for we must all appear, doesn't mean unbelievers too? What scripture states that the GWTJ is for unbelievers only.

1 Cor 3:15~~Do any unbelievers get saved in the GWTJ? Paul is talking to ALL believers. Look into the original languages and you will see that they are distinct.

 

[gr8grace]

First of all, these are different Greek words being used here, in Ecclesiasties we have in the LXX πονηρός, here is a Lexicon definition for you of this term.

88.110 πονηρόςa, ά, όν: pertaining to being morally corrupt and evil—‘immoral, evil, wicked.’ ὅταν … εἴπωσιν πᾶν πονηρὸν καθʼ ὑμῶν ‘when … they tell all kinds of evil things against you’ Mt 5:11. In translating Mt 5:11 it is important to indicate that the words spoken are not evil in themselves, but the content of what is spoken involves attributing evil and wicked deeds to the followers of Jesus. It may, therefore, be necessary to say in some languages ‘when men speak against you by saying that you have done wicked deeds.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (753). New York: United Bible Societies.

You see this term in this context is referring to evil deeds.

In Hebrews 5:14 it is the Greek word κακός which isn't as strong as these others.

88.106 κακόςa, ή, όν; κακῶςa: pertaining to being bad, with the implication of harmful and damaging—‘bad, evil, harmful, harshly.’
κακόςa: κακοὺς κακῶς ἀπολέσει αὐτούς ‘he will harshly destroy those bad men’ Mt 21:41.
κακῶςa: ἄρχοντα τοῦ λαοῦ σου οὐκ ἐρεῖς κακῶς ‘you must not speak in an evil manner about the ruler of your people’ Ac 23:5. The implication in Ac 23:5 is that one must not speak in such a way as ‘to cause harm to.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (753). New York: United Bible Societies.

You see this "evil" is the kind of evil that causes harm to someone, it's not talking about wicked deeds like others.

Your proof texts therefore fails to draw a contrast between the kind of evil I am referring to and sin.

Those who suffer the final punishment didn't have their works measure up to the Cross? First of all, this measuring up to the Cross is never mentioned, also let's examine another text that describes those who suffer this final fate.

But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death. (Re 21:8).

Tell me gr8grace, what are these people who suffer the final punishment being distinguished as? They are distinguished by their deeds! That those who commit murder.. sexual immorality.. idolatry.. lying.. etc. etc. will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. They do so because of these evil deeds, because God is just and will punish them according to what they have done. You see the word ἔργον (works, deeds) as mentioned in Revelation 20 does not signify either good works or bad works, but it has in mind ALL OF THEIR WORKS, everything being done in secret being brought into light to be judged.

Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked, for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap, 8 because the one who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.(Ga 6:7–8).

You reap what you sow, meaning your actions will bring about a certain end and reaping of the flesh, which is sin, will reap corruption of the flesh.. which is death.

What exactly is your opinion built on except eisegesis (reading into the text)? The Greek does not support your position, neither does any other passage that speaks about the final punishment, all of them are unanimous in that we are judged according to all our deeds, good or bad.

These people are said to be murders, idolaters, liars, sexually immoral.. not people who seem to be trying to climb the moral ladder as you presume.

Their deeds look really good to me and you.

Does that list in Revelation 21:8 look really good to you? Because that is the kind of people are thrown into the lake of fire according to the Bible. This statement from you is nothing but unbiblical speculation.

Mission trips, feeding the poor, cleaning up this world,getting prayer back in school....the list goes on.

Actually in Matthew 25.. God says these are the very things they DIDN'T DO!

Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! 42 For I was hungry and you did not give me anything* to eat, I was thirsty and you did not give me anything* to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not care for me.’
(Mt 25:41–43).

It's simply incredible how contrary to Scripture everything you are saying is...

The Judgement seat of Christ is the Bema seat....believers only.

The Great white throne Judgement is for unbelievers only.

What Scripture do you base this off of, in John 5:22 it says that the Father will judge no one but he has given all authority to judge over to Jesus. Jesus will sit on the throne of Judgement and Judge not just his people, but everyone.

Also you failed to mention what "death" means in the Bible.

There is no doubt you have the original language down quiet well. But it is just a part of our Spiritual discernment. Do you know why each of those "sins" were mentioned? And why unbelief was mentioned After the "cowardly?" Rev 21:8

 

[Doulos Iesou]

There is no doubt you have the original language down quiet well. But it is just a part of our Spiritual discernment. Do you know why each of those "sins" were mentioned? And why unbelief was mentioned After the "cowardly?" Rev 21:8

Yes, this Greek word τοις δειλοις (the cowardly or fearful) is used 2 other times in the NT.

And he said to them, “Why are you fearful, you of little faith?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea and there was a great calm.(Mt 8:26).

And he said to them, “Why are you fearful? Do you not yet have faith?” (Mk 4:40).

This is spoken next to "to the one who conquers (overcomes) will inherit these things," this is spoken in v.7 and now in v.8 we see the contrast beginning with those who are cowards and fell back into unbelief, who recanted due to persecution. Those who overcome endured even unto death and were given the crown of life, that is why unbelief and cowardly are put next to each other I believe.

 

[gr8grace]

There is no doubt you have the original language down quiet well. But it is just a part of our Spiritual discernment. Do you know why each of those "sins" were mentioned? And why unbelief was mentioned After the "cowardly?" Rev 21:8

Yes, this Greek word τοις δειλοις (the cowardly or fearful) is used 2 other times in the NT.

And he said to them, “Why are you fearful, you of little faith?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea and there was a great calm.(Mt 8:26).

And he said to them, “Why are you fearful? Do you not yet have faith?” (Mk 4:40).

This is spoken next to "to the one who conquers (overcomes) will inherit these things," this is spoken in v.7 and now in v.8 we see the contrast beginning with those who are cowards and fell back into unbelief, who recanted due to persecution. Those who overcome endured even unto death and were given the crown of life, that is why unbelief and cowardly are put next to each other I believe.

BUT in the context of this verse they never believed at any point in time. they were cowards and did not believe,ever. So unbelievers are are in view here. So Why mention these other "sins?" Is there a specific reason each of these individual "sins" are mentioned? Are they perhaps mentioned, because they kept the Coward from believing?

 

[Guest]

2 Cor 5:10 is the Bema seat and the Believers Judgement. the GWTJ is the unbelievers Judgment.

The Bema seat is not seen as a "judgement" though. It is a rewards ceremony. some for a lot and some for a little.

You're right, blessings.