Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[P31Woman]

I would highlight to words "who is able to". To me this verse is simply speaking of God's power and what He is capable of doing. I am putting myself in the shoes of those who have just been told they will be persecuted. I see this as Jesus reminding them of how powerful God is and how important their message is.


From my point of view that verse is really a non-issue. That does not mean it's not an issue for you and others.

I already covered this issue in my exegesis earlier but I will do so again for your sake.

Jesus tell his disciples to not fear those who kill the body but CANNOT (are note able to) kill the soul.

-The Greek words for not able are μή δύναμαι which is a negative construction, which means that these men shouldn't be feared because they do not have the ability to do anything to the soul.

Jesus Rather tells them to be afraid of the one who is able (can) to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

- The same Greek word δύναμαι is employed here from the first clause and is not demonstrating a subjunctive relationship, but rather Jesus is giving them cause to fear for a couple reasons.

1. He switches from the Greek word to kill ἀποκτείνω and uses a much stronger word ἀπόλλυμι which means "to destroy utterly." This indeed would have been cause for the Disciples to fear God instead of man and for them to live in the light and know that what was done in secret will be made known.
2. The men who would be persecuting them could do nothing to the soul.. they could kill the body but that would not end their existence. However, they should fear God because he is ABLE.. he CAN.. destroy both body and SOUL in Gehenna.

You see Jesus isn't tell them about God's power and what he is capable of doing.. as if he wouldn't do it. He is telling THEM.. the DISCIPLES to fear God.. this in the imperative mood, it's a command just as them not fearing those who can kill the body is also a command. This is a command because the reality of being destroyed in Hell is a possibility if they v.33 deny Jesus before men. Therefore they ought to go out boldly and proclaim the gospel and rather not be afraid for their Sovereign Father cares for them. That the God who knows when a sparrow falls or knows the number of hairs on their head will watch over them as they go out. They ought to not be afraid of those who persecute them even more so for that reason.

Your interpretation simply does not stand up to criticism and the flow of the language used here does not support your conclusion.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

So this is what I see in Your post.

You are telling us that Jesus was personally warning his close friends, his disciples, that He would innihilate them personally if they Go out and deny Jesus before men?

YOU SAID,"You see Jesus isn't tell them about God's power and what he is capable of doing.. as if he wouldn't do it. He is telling THEM.. the DISCIPLES to fear God.. this in the imperative mood, it's a command just as them not fearing those who can kill the body is also a command. This is a command because the reality of being destroyed in Hell is a possibility if they v.33 deny Jesus before men. Therefore they ought to go out boldly and proclaim the gospel and rather not be afraid for their Sovereign Father cares for them. That the God who knows when a sparrow falls or knows the number of hairs on their head will watch over them as they go out. They ought to not be afraid of those who persecute them even more so for that reason.

Your interpretation simply does not stand up to criticism and the flow of the language used here does not support your conclusion.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus


Do you believe in Eternal Security for the believer?

I agree with you. That's what I hear him/her saying. Like a threat.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I agree with you. That's what I hear him/her saying. Like a threat.

Are you agreeing with me? You quoted about 3 people. Yes I do see it like a threat or warning, as I believe Jesus loved them and wanted to warn them of serious danger, and there is indeed serious danger if we deny Christ.

 

[gr8grace]

So this is what I see in Your post.

You are telling us that Jesus was personally warning his close friends, his disciples, that He would innihilate them personally if they Go out and deny Jesus before men?[/B]

Let me clarify some things for you.

1. I am not using the language of annihilation (you are) I don't try to read my theology into the text but I am rather just trying to draw out what is there. Thus the meaning of the word ἀπόλλυμι means to utterly destroy in this context, as I have demonstrated several times in this thread.
2. Jesus said in v.33 that he will deny them before the Father if they deny him before men, and it will the God the Father who casts them into Hell. Jesus isn't referring to them fearing HIM in v.28 but God the Father.
3. The context is provided by v.5 where Jesus begins to send out his disciples to the Jews and gives them instructions. NO ONE ELSE is present to hear these word as they were spoken specifically to them. If Jesus is speaking in the imperative mood, giving them a command to fear God rather then men and in a way that isn't just for reverence then why should we deny this explicit remark?

This is the Jesus who said.. "Repent or Perish" Or "Take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me" or "the way is broad that leads to destruction," His ministry and message was radical and hard to hear for many. We must do as Paul said in Romans 11.. to note the kindness AND the SEVERITY of God.. "Kindness towards you, if you continue in his kindness.. and severity towards those who have fallen away."

This is the consistent teaching of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Do you believe in Eternal Security for the believer?

I hold that only those who BELIEVE presently are eternally secure, that the Bible offers no assurance to those who are not actively believing in Christ and evidencing fruit of a transformed life. However, I do think it is possible to genuinely fall away.

I choose to use annihilate, I don't care for "utterly destroy." Annihilate better describes what is being discussed here anyways.

We have Matt 10:28 discussed quite thoroughly, and from what I am Hearing you are describing it as a verse that clearly says That apollumi means to annihilate out of existence.

Can you provide another verse in Scripture that says apollumi means to wipe from existence?

As noted, even Thayer himself was(possibly) a Unitarian who did not believe in eternal punishment, his definition could only be the result of his knowledge of the meaning of this Greek word. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon defines apollumi as “to be delivered up to eternal misery”

I cannot and have not found ONE verse that apollumi means to "wipe from existence"

And where is the lexicographical evidence that apollumi means "to wipe from existence?" I can find none.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I choose to use annihilate, I don't care for "utterly destroy." Annihilate better describes what is being discussed here anyways.

Sigh... This is what is called a Straw man argument... the person you're arguing against is saying that this meaning is to utterly destroy, which certainly is in the meaning of the word. YET, you keep saying, "no this better describes what you are saying."

What if I was having a debate with you and I told you what kind of language best represents your position and then proceeded to critic something you NEVER said. This is precisely what you are doing.

We have Matt 10:28 discussed quite thoroughly, and from what I am Hearing you are describing it as a verse that clearly says That apollumi means to annihilate out of existence.

To UTTERLY DESTROY both the body and soul, that is what I am contending for. This whole notion of annihilate out existence is simply attempting to build a straw man. I have chosen my words carefully, and please do not twist them dishonestly.

Can you provide another verse in Scripture that says apollumi means to wipe from existence?

Let's examine the usage of this specific rendering of the Greek Word ἀπολέσαι in Matthew 10:28

Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” Matthew 2:13

He meant to kill the child, yes? Not destroy his "well being" or cause eternal misery to him.

“What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” Mark 1:24

Every single English Translation renders this as "TO DESTROY" not to ruin or lose or cause "eternal misery to."

Ha! What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” Luke 4:34

Same as Mark 1:24..

And Jesus said to them, “I ask you, is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy it?” Luke 6:9

Certainly the sense carried here is to end the life.. to kill the person as it is contrasted with saving a life.

for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And they went on to another village. Luke 9:56

What did he not come to destroy? Their lives, but he wishes to save them. Jesus did not come to judge and destroy, but to save and heal. This was in the context of some of his disciples wishing for fire to come down out of heaven to BURN THEM UP. Jesus said he didn't come to do that by using the word ἀπολέσαι "to destroy."

And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people were seeking to destroy him, Luke 19:47

They were wishing to destroy Jesus and it is clear that they intended to end his life, not cause him physical eternal misery or ruin.. or loss. To kill him.. DESTROY him..

There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:12

This was spoken to Jewish Christians who knew that the punishment for breaking God's law was destruction, see the WHOLE OT. Specifically this text which reflects many others.

The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. Deuteronomy 28:20

The Hebrew word used here is הִשָּֽׁמֶדְךָ֤ and it means to be exterminated.. utterly destroyed. And it uses the same Greek word in the LXX.

My contention is that to destroy means to cause the end of something, to utterly destroy it. And that in the instance of Matthew 10:28 the life of the person's soul and body are ended in Hell. They are destroyed utterly as a whole.

As noted, even Thayer himself was a Unitarian who did not believe in eternal punishment, his definition could only be the result of his knowledge of the meaning of this Greek word. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon defines apollumi as “to be delivered up to eternal misery”

Please see my response, Thayer who was a Unitarian and denied the infallibility of Scripture (someone nowadays most wouldn't consider to be a Christian) was basing his conclusions off of far outdated lexicography that was made irrelevant soon after he developed his work. I have demonstrated the the particular usage of this word within the Canon of the NT does not ONCE lend to this meaning and rather lends to the idea that I support.

I cannot and have not found ONE verse that apollumi means to "wipe from existence"

That's because you're arguing on fallacious grounds... stop that!

And where is the lexicographical evidence that apollumi means "to wipe from existence?" I can find none.

Do you want to have an honest and charitable discussion? I do. So please, quit misrepresenting what I am saying and actually deal with the content I provide..

 

[gr8grace]

So just what do you mean by "utterly destroy?" if it is not Annihilation of existence?


Matt 2:13~~ so now you say Herod,a man, can utterly destroy? Not Just God?

It seems you have changed utterly destroyed into eternal torment now?

So now I am confused. What do you really think Apollumi means?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So just what do you mean by "utterly destroy?" if it is not Annihilation of existence?


Matt 2:13~~ so now you say Herod,a man, can utterly destroy? Not Just God?

It seems you have changed utterly destroyed into eternal torment now?

So now I am confused. What do you really think Apollumi means?

Did you read my response? I was very specific with what I thought it meant, which is very confusing that you seem to think I mean eternal torment now...

My contention is that to destroy means to cause the end of something, to utterly destroy it. And that in the instance of Matthew 10:28 the life of the person's soul and body are ended in Hell. They are destroyed utterly as a whole.

Please see the above quote as that accurately assess my position as well as the Biblical data regarding the specific usage of this Greek word throughout the NT and how all of them lend toward this conclusion.

Herod can end the life of a child by destroying it, killing it, but he cannot destroy the soul. Only God can do that.

 

[gr8grace]

So just what do you mean by "utterly destroy?" if it is not Annihilation of existence?


Matt 2:13~~ so now you say Herod,a man, can utterly destroy? Not Just God?

It seems you have changed utterly destroyed into eternal torment now?

So now I am confused. What do you really think Apollumi means?

Did you read my response? I was very specific with what I thought it meant, which is very confusing that you seem to think I mean eternal torment now...

My contention is that to destroy means to cause the end of something, to utterly destroy it. And that in the instance of Matthew 10:28 the life of the person's soul and body are ended in Hell. They are destroyed utterly as a whole.

Please see the above quote as that accurately assess my position as well as the Biblical data regarding the specific usage of this Greek word throughout the NT and how all of them lend toward this conclusion.

Herod can end the life of a child by destroying it, killing it, but he cannot destroy the soul. Only God can do that.

I just wanted to be Crystal clear on your definition that is all. it is stated clearly for everyone. My definition of annihilate is the same as yours for utterly destroy. So no straw man here.

And we have Matt 2:13 out of the way. Apollumi in this verse does not work for utterly destroy.

So the Next verse is Mark 1:24~~ I have asked before, now If you would, could you go into more detail. Are Satan and the fallen Angels utterly destroyed?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I just wanted to be Crystal clear on your definition that is all. it is stated clearly for everyone. My definition of annihilate is the same as yours for utterly destroy. So no straw man here.

And we have Matt 2:13 out of the way. Apollumi in this verse does not work for utterly destroy.

No, it's not... please listen to what I was saying. I believe that the Word rendered this way consistently refers to ending something, most commonly to ending someone's life. To kill them, or more powerfully to destroy them. This is not referring to them being tortured in any way, but 100% of the time to their death.

I believe that the second death is therefore the destruction of not only the body, but also the soul. That both of these comes their end in this final destruction, and this destruction has no return and that person shall be cut off for all eternity.

You're taking my interpretation of the text Matthew 10:28 and drawing that conclusion from the idea that both body and soul are destroyed and then applying that to other Scriptures. That is NOT what I am doing.

So the Next verse is Mark 1:24~~ I have asked before, now If you would, could you go into more detail. Are Satan and the fallen Angels utterly destroyed?

I already answered this question in depth earlier in the thread and I have been going at lengths to provide more and more detail to you, but that doesn't seem to be helping. Let's stay on this topic and see if you can understand my clarification here, then we can move on.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Most Christians in the world today affirm the Penal Substitutionary Atonement position that Jesus took our punishment standing in our place at the Cross suffering the wrath of God so that we might be forgiven.

However, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity? Wouldn't we say that Jesus only overcame an aspect of our punishment.. when in fact those were punished suffered a totally different punishment than the one Jesus endured.

I have heard preachers attempt to elaborate on this stating it was because of the great worth of Jesus compared to the fallen sinners he was redeeming.. however there is no Scriptural support for any of these notions.

What if... we actually took passages in the Bible seriously and didn't prefer texts with metaphorical and apocalyptic contexts and really did a rethinking of what the final punishment is like?

Here are some points that I believe are completely off most Christian's radars.

1. The wages of sin is death. This is such a simple verse that so many people have memorized, yet so few people actually believe it. They rather think that the wages of sin means eternal torment in the lake of fire, or that this death is not only physical death but also "spiritual" death as in separation from God for all eternity... yet the phrase spiritual death never occurs in Scripture and is a common teaching of Gnosticism which has spiritual death rather than physical death as the ultimate punishment.

2. Jesus teaches in Matthew 10:28 that not only is the body, the physical body destroyed (ἀπόλλυμι means to be destroyed..) in hell, but also our SOUL is destroyed there. Given the context of Matthew 10:28 and Jesus is telling his disciples not to fear those who can merely KILL the body and then do nothing.. he tells them to rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

3. The most famous verse in the Bible.. John 3:16 teaches that whoever believes shall not... PERISH, but have eternal life. This is the same Greek word found in Matthew 10:28 and is a strengthened form of ollumi and it means to destroy utterly. This is made clear in the context of life vs perishing and not fearing one how can just kill not only the body but also the soul.

4. And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.(Re 20:14).

There are many times in which the Bible employs figurative language yet then expounds on what that means. For example, in Revelation it will use all kinds of metaphorical imagery and then will say.. the 10 horns are 10 kings.. giving somewhat of a commentary for what these images point to.

Here in Revelation 20:14 and in other places he elaborates on just what the lake of fire is.. it is the second death, which is quite interesting because it happens just after the resurrection of the wicked, who will be judged and cast in soul and body to die a second death.. as they had already died once.

Conclusion:

Jesus did die in our place and suffer our penalty as a substitute and it was to suffer the punishment promised of old.. that if we break the law of God we are deserving of death (Romans 1:32). Jesus comes and conquers death our last and greatest enemy by taking the punishment on the Cross and rising from the dead on the Third day.. for the Resurrection is our greatest hope. For immortality was not possessed before Jesus, in Jesus is eternal life.. for he IS eternal life!

but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).

Did Jesus really take your punishment on the Cross? Is the Resurrection really your greatest hope? Or has our views on the punishment of God confused our soteriology so that the heart of the gospel seems quite irrelevant to the issue we think we have.

We serve a great God who is loving, gracious, righteous and JUST. He will not let the guilty go unpunished, but praise be to God who has set us free from the fear of death and has promised eternal life for all those who are in Christ.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

You brought up good points, and I am answering without reading any other replies lest it is said I was influenced.

The reason why Jesus (Yeshua) was not eternally tormented is because there is no eternal torment for the sinner, but extinction by perishing. The sinner merely dies and the second death is to be exterminated in the lake of fire. Thus, Yeshua paid the price by dying as that is all any sinner experiences. Otherwise, if there was such a place as an eternal burning hell, then you are right, Yeshua would still be there instead of at the right hand of the Father (Yahweh).

This eternal torment stuff is just emotional witchery used by evangelists while a creepy organ plays in the background, and it was started in paganism. It does not promote true faith, but rather people run to Jesus for fire insurance. Disgusting! :shocked!

 

[gr8grace]

I just wanted to be Crystal clear on your definition that is all. it is stated clearly for everyone. My definition of annihilate is the same as yours for utterly destroy. So no straw man here.

And we have Matt 2:13 out of the way. Apollumi in this verse does not work for utterly destroy.

No, it's not... please listen to what I was saying. I believe that the Word rendered this way consistently refers to ending something, most commonly to ending someone's life. To kill them, or more powerfully to destroy them. This is not referring to them being tortured in any way, but 100% of the time to their death.

I believe that the second death is therefore the destruction of not only the body, but also the soul. That both of these comes their end in this final destruction, and this destruction has no return and that person shall be cut off for all eternity.

You're taking my interpretation of the text Matthew 10:28 and drawing that conclusion from the idea that both body and soul are destroyed and then applying that to other Scriptures. That is NOT what I am doing.

So the Next verse is Mark 1:24~~ I have asked before, now If you would, could you go into more detail. Are Satan and the fallen Angels utterly destroyed?

I already answered this question in depth earlier in the thread and I have been going at lengths to provide more and more detail to you, but that doesn't seem to be helping. Let's stay on this topic and see if you can understand my clarification here, then we can move on.

I am trying to take your interpretation and definition of appolumi(utterly destroy) from Matt 10:28 and make it fit in another verse in Scripture. You have made plenty of mention that we cannot go to the very clear scriptures and compare it with Matt 10:28.

So I am Just trying to play by your rules, And we can see how confusing it can be. We should be able to line up your interpretation of Appolumi(utterly destroy) to at least a few others verses.

 

[gr8grace]

Most Christians in the world today affirm the Penal Substitutionary Atonement position that Jesus took our punishment standing in our place at the Cross suffering the wrath of God so that we might be forgiven.

However, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity? Wouldn't we say that Jesus only overcame an aspect of our punishment.. when in fact those were punished suffered a totally different punishment than the one Jesus endured.

I have heard preachers attempt to elaborate on this stating it was because of the great worth of Jesus compared to the fallen sinners he was redeeming.. however there is no Scriptural support for any of these notions.

What if... we actually took passages in the Bible seriously and didn't prefer texts with metaphorical and apocalyptic contexts and really did a rethinking of what the final punishment is like?

Here are some points that I believe are completely off most Christian's radars.

1. The wages of sin is death. This is such a simple verse that so many people have memorized, yet so few people actually believe it. They rather think that the wages of sin means eternal torment in the lake of fire, or that this death is not only physical death but also "spiritual" death as in separation from God for all eternity... yet the phrase spiritual death never occurs in Scripture and is a common teaching of Gnosticism which has spiritual death rather than physical death as the ultimate punishment.

2. Jesus teaches in Matthew 10:28 that not only is the body, the physical body destroyed (ἀπόλλυμι means to be destroyed..) in hell, but also our SOUL is destroyed there. Given the context of Matthew 10:28 and Jesus is telling his disciples not to fear those who can merely KILL the body and then do nothing.. he tells them to rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

3. The most famous verse in the Bible.. John 3:16 teaches that whoever believes shall not... PERISH, but have eternal life. This is the same Greek word found in Matthew 10:28 and is a strengthened form of ollumi and it means to destroy utterly. This is made clear in the context of life vs perishing and not fearing one how can just kill not only the body but also the soul.

4. And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.(Re 20:14).

There are many times in which the Bible employs figurative language yet then expounds on what that means. For example, in Revelation it will use all kinds of metaphorical imagery and then will say.. the 10 horns are 10 kings.. giving somewhat of a commentary for what these images point to.

Here in Revelation 20:14 and in other places he elaborates on just what the lake of fire is.. it is the second death, which is quite interesting because it happens just after the resurrection of the wicked, who will be judged and cast in soul and body to die a second death.. as they had already died once.

Conclusion:

Jesus did die in our place and suffer our penalty as a substitute and it was to suffer the punishment promised of old.. that if we break the law of God we are deserving of death (Romans 1:32). Jesus comes and conquers death our last and greatest enemy by taking the punishment on the Cross and rising from the dead on the Third day.. for the Resurrection is our greatest hope. For immortality was not possessed before Jesus, in Jesus is eternal life.. for he IS eternal life!

but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).

Did Jesus really take your punishment on the Cross? Is the Resurrection really your greatest hope? Or has our views on the punishment of God confused our soteriology so that the heart of the gospel seems quite irrelevant to the issue we think we have.

We serve a great God who is loving, gracious, righteous and JUST. He will not let the guilty go unpunished, but praise be to God who has set us free from the fear of death and has promised eternal life for all those who are in Christ.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

You brought up good points, and I am answering without reading any other replies lest it is said I was influenced.

The reason why Jesus (Yeshua) was not eternally tormented is because there is no eternal torment for the sinner, but extinction by perishing. The sinner merely dies and the second death is to be exterminated in the lake of fire. Thus, Yeshua paid the price by dying as that is all any sinner experiences. Otherwise, if there was such a place as an eternal burning hell, then you are right, Yeshua would still be there instead of at the right hand of the Father (Yahweh).

This eternal torment stuff is just emotional witchery used by evangelists while a creepy organ plays in the background, and it was started in paganism. It does not promote true faith, but rather people run to Jesus for fire insurance. Disgusting! :shocked!

Actually the Kingdom of Darkness is what teaches Hell is not eternal. Satan always has a counterfeit to Gods truth. The last place Satan wants to be is in eternal torment. So He tries to Soften it up a bit and tries to convince us that Sin is not deserving of a eternal Hell is it?

Gods own Son isn't an infinite sacrifice. Those Sins that He bore on His undeserving back are not worthy of an eternal punishment are they? After all its just a bitty sin,what is he so worked up about?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I am trying to take your interpretation and definition of appolumi(utterly destroy) from Matt 10:28 and make it fit in another verse in Scripture. You have made plenty of mention that we cannot go to the very clear scriptures and compare it with Matt 10:28.

So I am Just trying to play by your rules, And we can see how confusing it can be. We should be able to line up your interpretation of Appolumi(utterly destroy) to at least a few others verses.

My goodness.. I'll give you a couple more posts, but you're simply not reading for comprehension.. you're doing the very thing I said you SHOULDN'T do. I made this very clear in my last post here.

You're taking my interpretation of the text Matthew 10:28 and drawing that conclusion from the idea that both body and soul are destroyed and then applying that to other Scriptures. That is NOT what I am doing.

Yet you make this very error explicitly in this post.

I am trying to take your interpretation and definition of appolumi(utterly destroy) from Matt 10:28 and make it fit in another verse in Scripture. You have made plenty of mention that we cannot go to the very clear scriptures and compare it with Matt 10:28.

Almost leaves me speechless...

Discussing the meaning of the word versus the overall interpretation of a verse is NOT the same thing, as in Matthew 10:28 the Greek word ἀπολέσαι is used in a different way in this text than any other. In what way?

1. In almost all of the other uses of the Greek word ἀπολέσαι (note this is the very specific rendering of the Greek word with tenses and mood) it is used to describe something happening to a physical being, save the demons asking Jesus if he will destroy them.
2. In this instance we find that destruction refers to not just the body being destroyed (this is a common concept) but the very soul of the person would be destroyed in Gehenna, verses simply the body being killed by those who persecute them. All of them would be destroyed.

That is the distinction between this interpretation and the others and that is why the Greek word ἀπολέσαι does not mean to put out of existence, and that is why I do not argue for such a thing.

If you don't understand me now, then I don't know what else I can say to help you..

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Actually the Kingdom of Darkness is what teaches Hell is not eternal. Satan always has a counterfeit to Gods truth. The last place Satan wants to be is in eternal torment. So He tries to Soften it up a bit and tries to convince us that Sin is not deserving of a eternal Hell is it?

This is simply insulting to the highest degree... to say that we're doing the work of Satan by arguing for this position...

If the traditional view is true.. then it doesn't matter how many people Satan would convince to believe otherwise as that wouldn't change his fate for an instant. How does convincing us change anything? Sigh...

Gods own Son isn't an infinite sacrifice. Those Sins that He bore on His undeserving back are not worthy of an eternal punishment are they? After all its just a bitty sin,what is he so worked up about?

Who said that? That these sins are just a bitty sin, and nothing to get worked up about? What does the Bible say about what they deserve.

Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Romans 1:32

God's decree in his justice is that those who practice the sins in the aforementioned verses deserve to what? Or more literally are worthy of what? DEATH!

This is precisely what I believe is necessary for those who sin. That the soul who sins will DIE. God is just and his punishment is indeed severe, but he is good and will put an end to evil once and for all so that all that is fallen will have passed away one day.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You brought up good points, and I am answering without reading any other replies lest it is said I was influenced.

The reason why Jesus (Yeshua) was not eternally tormented is because there is no eternal torment for the sinner, but extinction by perishing. The sinner merely dies and the second death is to be exterminated in the lake of fire. Thus, Yeshua paid the price by dying as that is all any sinner experiences. Otherwise, if there was such a place as an eternal burning hell, then you are right, Yeshua would still be there instead of at the right hand of the Father (Yahweh).

This eternal torment stuff is just emotional witchery used by evangelists while a creepy organ plays in the background, and it was started in paganism. It does not promote true faith, but rather people run to Jesus for fire insurance. Disgusting! :shocked!

Hi tim-from-pa,

I think it is important that we do not demonize those who disagree with us, certainly the eternal torment view comes from an overly literal reading of certain texts that are either parables or apocalyptic literature, but I would say that those who hold to the view are not using it to control others with fear. This has certainly been the case with some, but it is not the prevailing view and it does not settle whether or not it is true or false. We must all go back to Scripture to learn from our Lord in humility.

Blessings,
Servant of Jesus

 

[tim-from-pa]

Actually the Kingdom of Darkness is what teaches Hell is not eternal. Satan always has a counterfeit to Gods truth. The last place Satan wants to be is in eternal torment. So He tries to Soften it up a bit and tries to convince us that Sin is not deserving of a eternal Hell is it?

Gods own Son isn't an infinite sacrifice. Those Sins that He bore on His undeserving back are not worthy of an eternal punishment are they? After all its just a bitty sin,what is he so worked up about?

Sorry, but you are not making any sense, scripturally or otherwise. Is just one sin worth eternal punishment or not? And did Yeshua take on that sin or not? Then what happens if he took that punishment in place of me? You need scriptures to back up your reasoning, because that's all I see in your post, rationalization.

 

[tim-from-pa]

You brought up good points, and I am answering without reading any other replies lest it is said I was influenced.

The reason why Jesus (Yeshua) was not eternally tormented is because there is no eternal torment for the sinner, but extinction by perishing. The sinner merely dies and the second death is to be exterminated in the lake of fire. Thus, Yeshua paid the price by dying as that is all any sinner experiences. Otherwise, if there was such a place as an eternal burning hell, then you are right, Yeshua would still be there instead of at the right hand of the Father (Yahweh).

This eternal torment stuff is just emotional witchery used by evangelists while a creepy organ plays in the background, and it was started in paganism. It does not promote true faith, but rather people run to Jesus for fire insurance. Disgusting! :shocked!

Hi tim-from-pa,

I think it is important that we do not demonize those who disagree with us, certainly the eternal torment view comes from an overly literal reading of certain texts that are either parables or apocalyptic literature, but I would say that those who hold to the view are not using it to control others with fear. This has certainly been the case with some, but it is not the prevailing view and it does not settle whether or not it is true or false. We must all go back to Scripture to learn from our Lord in humility.

Blessings,
Servant of Jesus

That's noble of you and honorable, and I wish I could be that forgiving of error. But it does tick me off, and I'm not as trusting as you are of other people. I do think it's used to control others in fear, and a lot here who believe it are trying to convince themselves that they believe it otherwise such a merciful God may be upset with them and burn them writhing in pain forever and ever and ever because they don't believe in an eternal hell. :halo

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That's noble of you and honorable, and I wish I could be that forgiving of error. But it does tick me off, and I'm not as trusting as you are of other people. I do think it's used to control others in fear, and a lot here who believe it are trying to convince themselves that they believe it otherwise such a merciful God may be upset with them and burn them writhing in pain forever and ever and ever because they don't believe in an eternal hell. :halo

It very well may come from our contexts, the Church I attend does not agree with me, yet they don't use it to control people and I know that my Pastor's heart for the lost is that they be saved, if anything it propels them to evangelize further. While I think that my view promotes evangelism even more so because of the relevance and power and goodness of God displayed in the gospel, I can admire those who disagree.

I once not so long ago believed the same thing and I did so because I thought I was upholding the truthfulness of Scripture and being accurate to what it teaches. I never thought to use it in a malicious way, and I expect that those who are also God's children and know his love feel the same way.

To be honest, I doubt many of them even believe it to be true as it an impossible concept to wrap your mind and heart around. That's something I discovered about myself after I looked into this more.

Blessings to you brother, may we choose to show grace as our Lord has shown grace to us.
Servant of Jesus

 

[Guest]

There is eternal torment in hell because scripture doesn't lie, only man does.
Mark 9:48, Isaiah 14:11, Isaiah 66:24, Revelation 14:11 & Revelation 20:10.

 

[gr8grace]

Actually the Kingdom of Darkness is what teaches Hell is not eternal. Satan always has a counterfeit to Gods truth. The last place Satan wants to be is in eternal torment. So He tries to Soften it up a bit and tries to convince us that Sin is not deserving of a eternal Hell is it?

This is simply insulting to the highest degree... to say that we're doing the work of Satan by arguing for this position...

If the traditional view is true.. then it doesn't matter how many people Satan would convince to believe otherwise as that wouldn't change his fate for an instant. How does convincing us change anything? Sigh...

Gods own Son isn't an infinite sacrifice. Those Sins that He bore on His undeserving back are not worthy of an eternal punishment are they? After all its just a bitty sin,what is he so worked up about?

Who said that? That these sins are just a bitty sin, and nothing to get worked up about? What does the Bible say about what they deserve.

Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Romans 1:32

God's decree in his justice is that those who practice the sins in the aforementioned verses deserve to what? Or more literally are worthy of what? DEATH!

This is precisely what I believe is necessary for those who sin. That the soul who sins will DIE. God is just and his punishment is indeed severe, but he is good and will put an end to evil once and for all so that all that is fallen will have passed away one day.

We have 2 views in this world. Satanic or God,Period.

As you can see I am not the sharpest tack in the bunch. But I see in your other post that you said ," ἀπολέσαι does not mean to put out of existence" And that is what I was Getting at. In the original language the word never means to put out of existence.

But I have seen nothing in your posts with that admission, and clearly stated as you have with that statement. If you had I missed it.

From your posts I got the impression that you were saying "out of existence"

I am sorry, but go back to post47 and look at your definition. Can you see how one could come to the conclusion that means "out of existence?"

IMO that opens a big can of worms now.......Utterly destroyed,yet existing.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

There is eternal torment in hell because scripture doesn't lie, only man does.
Mark 9:48, Isaiah 14:11, Isaiah 66:24, Revelation 14:11 & Revelation 20:10.

Proof-texting will get you far..