WHY?

[mutzrein]

It's my understanding, mutz, that 'the lost' will be raised from their graves after the 1000 years to face judgment ...the penalty of which will be final and utter destruction. NO ONE will receive eternal life or eternal death without full knowledge that it was THEY who chose either of the two options available to them. This is where 'justice' comes into the equasion. It's also my understanding that even the lost will acknowledge that God is a worthy and a just God. That's just before God 'zaps' them into eternity! ?????

So, yes ...I DO see annihilation as a punishment.

All of this doesn't take away from my original question. Just as long as we can keep Oscar at bay we might be able to move on. :roll:

I see. What is the point of raising them from their graves then? Just to tell them they chose the wrong option?

 

[Atonement]

I give no one favoritism as I see this is how you want to interpret it. Though I agree with Oscar to some degree as I'm sure the Admins will, but it was how he used his words of choice.

We are not to call people the child of Satan, for we are judging, however your statement made you no angel, and I also now question your salvation.. I think Oscar was refering to this verse

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Which could in reality may not be a violation, so therefore the Admins will be involved, and I will let them decide what to do with Oscar. When I'm in doubt, I use the chain of command.. Something I'm sure you are use to, if you have a job in the work force...

But the verse I would have used instead to describe your post SputnikBoy, is this one here..

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

And that is SOOOO true about your post..

 

[SputnikBoy]

I really don't want to detract from the OP but what the heck is going on here? Some (I can't even say the word I want to say in case I get banned) is making assinine remarks and poison comments that are TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE and I am the one who receives two warnings (three strikes and you're banned!) from the mod because I responded with 'tongue-in-cheek' but (I believe) befitting responses. Can no one else see what is going on here?

 

[Atonement]

SputnikBoy, Please by all means, if you disagree with my better judgment, you may contact any of the Admins.. They are VIC C and JUDY

 

[SputnikBoy]

I see. What is the point of raising them from their graves then? Just to tell them they chose the wrong option?

Well yes. Anyone who is sentenced within our own justice system (whether to death or life imprisonment or whatever) is informed of the decision made by the court before the penalty takes place. If the 'lost' simply 'disappear' once and for all before the justice process takes place, 'the saved' might have something to say about that. What do you think? But this is all a part of my original question anyway, isn't it?

By the way, I'm beginning to regret having even raised the issue.

 

[mutzrein]

I really don't want to detract from the OP but what the heck is going on here? Some (I can't even say the word I want to say in case I get banned) is making assinine remarks and poison comments that are TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE and I am the one who receives two warnings (three strikes and you're banned!) from the mod because I responded with 'tongue-in-cheek' but (I believe) befitting responses. Can no one else see what is going on here?

Since it appears I'm the only other one here for the mo - and soon have to go - am I allowed to ask, what your crime was for getting two strikes?

I actually thought you showed restraint by using a light hearted approach, given the remarks by Oscar. But you know, who am I to judge?

 

[mutzrein]

Well yes. Anyone who is sentenced within our own justice system (whether to death or life imprisonment or whatever) is informed of the decision made by the court before the penalty takes place. If the 'lost' simply 'disappear' once and for all before the justice process takes place, 'the saved' might have something to say about that. What do you think? But this is all a part of my original question anyway, isn't it?

By the way, I'm beginning to regret having even raised the issue.

I think you've asked a very valid question - and certainly I have learned more about your thinking on the matter. It's all good. :wink:

So we have a mod who questions your salvation and someone else who says you're a child of Satan. You're not worried about that surely? I've had worse - and just count it a blessing!

Anyway - I do have to rush so another question b 4 I go. Why would the 'saved' be concerned about the 'justice' meted out to the lost if the lost just disappeared?

Later . . .

 

[Atonement]

So we have a mod who questions your salvation

Very much so.. So much it sadens my heart. What I find hurtful though is that some don't have my heart. The more you seek Christ and grow in the Lord, the more your heart becomes as His. I want nothing more then SputnikBoy' salvation to be authentic. I want to break bread in Heaven with him one day. So yes through my love for the lost, I question his salvation. If you find something wrong with that mutzrein, maybe you also need to grow in the Lord????????? There is nothing wrong with me questing the Salvation of SputnikBoy. Infact we should question EVERYONE, starting with our own family, don't you agree??

 

[SputnikBoy]

Since it appears I'm the only other one here for the mo - and soon have to go - am I allowed to ask, what your crime was for getting two strikes?

I actually thought you showed restraint by using a light hearted approach, given the remarks by Oscar. But you know, who am I to judge?

Well, I don't see why this shouldn't be shared with others, even if only to offer as a deterent for future 'violators'.

My OP read:

Have any of you ever wondered why anyone should be 'punished' - whether by eternal torment or annihilation - simply for not having accepted Jesus Christ? I have and I still do. Not accepting Jesus Christ hardly qualifies as a 'crime' in my book. So, while neither of the alternative 'penalties' makes too much sense to me, there DO appear to be only two positions on this issue so I (somewhat begrudgingly) opt for the latter.

Why is 'unbelief' considered to be a 'sin' as such and why is it deemed as being worthy of such a severe penalty ...?

The emphasized part was violation #1.

Violation #2 occurred when I called Oscar a (oh dear, I'd best not) ...well, you know the word. But, I was always taught that honesty was the best virtue and that's WHY I used the word.

Destiny says it best (and safest) in her post by simply accepting. May this be a lesson to anyone who might question the teachings of the Bible. The problem I see here, however, is that any belief system that can't hold up to scrutiny (however well intentioned the questions asked might be) SHOULD be called into question. If THAT, somehow, constitutes violation #3 ...well ...goodbye.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Anyway - I do have to rush so another question b 4 I go. Why would the 'saved' be concerned about the 'justice' meted out to the lost if the lost just disappeared?

Well, justice must not only be done. It must also be SEEN to have been done by everyone else. This is why the sentencing of anyone in our society is usually, if not always, not simply done in secret. It's a public affair.

When you get to heaven (I'm assuming that's where you're going ... ) and you don't happen to see 'so and so' there, you'll be overcome with curiosity as to WHY he or she isn't there. Especially if you EXPECTED to see them there. Sentencing of 'the lost' to the knowledge of 'the saved' will take care of all doubts ...again, much like our own justice system. So, it's also of extreme importance that justice is SEEN to have been done by both 'the lost' AND 'the saved'.

I have no idea, of course, how one will feel that a friend or a loved one 'didn't make it' ...I'm sure there will be an element of (at least temporary) regret and sadness. Then again, I may well be in violation again from that little comment alone since we're told that there will be no more tears or sadness in heaven. Oh well . . .

 

[Atonement]

And if anyone questions this, I would be MORE then happy to emphasize the TOS in detail and how this violated our TOS.

SputnikBoy, what is the basic tenets of our faith?? Very important question, for it's one you violated.. What is our Statement of faith here??



You did not question it (which could be understandable), but you made a statement about it..

Not accepting Jesus Christ hardly qualifies as a 'crime' in my book.

Big difference here.

Also our statement of faith reads:

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will suffer forever.

The rest I think is self explanatory

 

[SputnikBoy]

And if anyone questions this, I would be MORE then happy to emphasize the TOS in detail and how this violated our TOS.

SputnikBoy, what is the basic tenets of our faith?? Very important question, for it's one you violated.. What is our Statement of faith here??



You did not question it (which could be understandable), but you made a statement about it..




The rest I think is self explanatory

Whatever the other basic tenets of 'our faith' may be the last one about 'eternal suffering' certainly needs to be amended to accomodate the MANY TRUE CHRISTIANS who disagree with it. Believe it or not, Atone, I'm no slouch when it comes to a knowledge of the scriptures. I also am well aware that Christianity has within its realms MANY TRUE CHRISTIANS who don't always see eye to eye with OTHER TRUE CHRISTIANS on any number of issues. This is why we have so many Christian denominations. They can't ALL be right. But NO single denomination is totally right. Why? Because a denomination is comprised of mere mortals.

Moreover, there are an ever increasing number of Christians who are moving away from this belief of 'literal' eternal suffering (AND using the scriptures as their guide) to a least warrant a review of that particular tenet of the forum. There are a number of issues that NO ONE has all of the answers to, Atonement, and allowances need to be made to accomodate this fact. Otherwise we're just playing God. People are not necessarily 'wicked' for questioning 'the tenets'. Please don't make them feel as if they are. They are just people searching for answers that don't always 'jump out' of the Bible at them. In my OP I asked a genuine question ...not one that I expected to violate the TOS with!

 

[Atonement]

SputnikBoy I understand and respect your sincere post and it was heart-felt. But as it stands right now, the rules are in place. As a MOD I must enforce them. Sure we can all question when in doubt about areas of the Bible, this is how we get edification, growth and knowledge. But we can not make statements that don't follow the Scriptures. If you noticed SputnikBoy, I did not quote your entire post, it was "only" the one statement that you made. Yes your post has value and meaning, but unnecessary statements as the one that violated the TOS was uncalled for. I just pray you agree (with me on that) after making that statement, and not because you received a warning from it.

Not accepting Jesus Christ hardly qualifies as a 'crime' in my book.

Each time I read that SputnikBoy it erks me. Truly it does, as a Christian and a MOD. That's the WHOLE foundation of our faith, Jesus is the reason we are here. Jesus is the reason why today I'm still not a Satanist, a drug abuser, a alcoholic or a dead man buried 6' in the grave somewhere in all the close encounters with death I have had. To reject Jesus is a sin, and sin is punishable by death.. And sin is a "crime" which is the word that was used in your statement..

 

[mutzrein]

The emphasized part was violation #1.

Violation #2 occurred when I called Oscar a (oh dear, I'd best not) ...well, you know the word. But, I was always taught that honesty was the best virtue and that's WHY I used the word.

Destiny says it best (and safest) in her post by simply accepting. May this be a lesson to anyone who might question the teachings of the Bible. The problem I see here, however, is that any belief system that can't hold up to scrutiny (however well intentioned the questions asked might be) SHOULD be called into question. If THAT, somehow, constitutes violation #3 ...well ...goodbye.

Mmmm - thanks for letting me know. Serious stuff indeed.

Well if you don't repent like Oscar you're an idiot. :wink: If he can do it (and remember this is a Christian forum) forgiveness must be given. After all there is the 70 x 7 principle operating. That’s obviously how some people are able to offend so many times I would say. Ah . . . grace and forgiveness are wonderful things.

But I digress. Now I don't want to get you into trouble but there are a few ways your 'crime' statement could be taken. For example:

1. People believe that there is another way to God besides Jesus. Having heard of Jesus they reject the notion that Jesus is the ONLY way.
2. People know about Jesus and do believe that He is the son of God but have not to 'accepted' him as their saviour.
3. People who have never heard about Jesus and have never had the opportunity to 'accept' him.

I mean, in each one of these cases they have fulfilled what you have said - ie not accepting Jesus. Now I would be questioning how christendom sees each of these groups. Is it right to say that all of these groups are criminals? Because this seems to be what is believed – and preached.

And this is exactly the point that I made in another thread about the selfrighteousness of many who call themselves Christians. They stand to pray saying things like, ‘thankyou God that I am not like that sinner who does not know you . . .’ They believe they are righteous because they have ‘accepted’ Christ.

Whereas in fact, salvation is of God. Man cannot believe except he has faith and he cannot have faith unless it is given him by God. Jesus himself said no-one comes unto the Father but by me and no-one can come unto me unless the Father draws him. Scripture also says that to enter the kingdom of heaven man must be born again and then again, being born of God is not of human decision.

So who is the criminal – the man who has not accepted Jesus? Come on now!

 

[jgredline]

Not accepting Jesus Christ hardly qualifies as a 'crime' in my book.

Sput
As I am reading your post this morning, I must say that my heart was trully saddend. I read through all these post in this very thread you started I my first thought was and I did pray for you. While Oscars comments were harsh, they were the truth. I also agree with everything atoment has said in his remarks.

For the Christian Accepting Jesus is ''EVERYTHING''
No child of God would ever say what you said. Whats more you have even tried to defend that position :o My friend. If I am not mistaken are you not in the worship band at the church you attend? If this is so, you need to step down and stop defiling what is so precious to God. Worship.

I am not suprised that you so want to defend this theory of annaihalation.

I really don't have much more to say.. Atonement's heart bled through in his post as it should. Oscars comments like I said were harsh, but from what I can see they were truth. I am sure Solo and all the mods would also agree.

 

[guibox]

What I am seeing and have seen constantly on this forum as of late from certain people is that audacious claim that they, and they only, have the correct method of interpretation and everyone else's are 'followers of Satan'.

The sad thing is, is that some are agreeing with it but as SB said, 'are playing with kid gloves' with the infractions simply because they AGREE with it (and I don't speak of specifically one person).

It is pretty sad when someone claims that they are afraid for someone's salvation because they are basically a heretic simply because they can defend from the Bible that God will not allow eternal suffering.

It amazes me that people are claiming we are pawns of Satan and spreading deceiving lies when we are defending God and portraying a God of mercy (again, straight from the clear teaching of the Bible) and not a God whose characteristics are EXACTLY what Satan wants people to believe about Him!

Unbelievable.

Not only does this say something about their heart, but also their objectivity on this forum.

Sputnik Boy in saying oscar was 'stupid' might have been a bit harsh. However, despite this, I agree with his opinion on the matter.. Oscar has been out of line too much and for his what...7th or 8th infraction?...he has not gotten the treatment he has earned. It's not fair for SB to be admonished so harshly by anybody while oscar gets treated easily simply because 'we agree with his theology'

Not good enough. Lets all be more objective, shall we?

 

[Atonement]

Oscar has been out of line too much and for his what...7th or 8th infraction?...he has not gotten the treatment he has earned

You, SputnikBoy and any others, are more then welcome to contact our ADMINS, if you feel further action is required. As MODS we can only warn. people. Sorry, but it's only a "fact"

 

[destiny]

I've heard time and time again 'well at least oscar spoke the truth' ....Is speaking the truth suppose to cover over perverting Gods character through a mean spirit?
Is speaking the truth enough when your speach further pushes someone away from God instead of compells them toward Him?
Didn't Jesus say if one goes astray to leave the other 99 to go and search for that one, and then (at least try) to bring Him back into the fold?
What oscar is doing is throwing stones at that 'one' instead of compelling Him back to Jesus.
I am learning that correct doctrine can be a deception for gageing a persons spiritual condition; it means nothing without the fruit of the Spirit.
Sputnick has admitted time and again on this forum that he is questioning christianity. That should be our wake-up call to show him the same compassion and mercy that the Lord poured out on us when we were dead in our sins.
Instead we give others a reason to run in the opposite direction. If oscar is the one with the 'truth', then he is accountable for pushing others away from God, because nobody is going to want that.

 

[Atonement]

Your blind to the issue somewhat destiny, action was taken already against Oscar. If you also feel that further action needs to be implemented, by all means you may contact our ADMINS.. Vic C. Or Judy

I will not buy the fact that SputnikBoy is "only" questing Christianty, when there are pages and pages with his position on Christianity.. And 70% of his post are in reference to this topic?? Why is that

 

[destiny]

Your blind to the issue somewhat destiny, action was taken already against Oscar. If you also feel that further action needs to be implemented, by all means you may contact our ADMINS.. Vic C. Or Judy

I will not buy the fact that SputnikBoy is "only" questing Christianty, when there are pages and pages with his position on Christianity.. And 70% of his post are in reference to this topic?? Why is that

Well, if you want to know the reasons these topics grow, its because people help them grow and spread by 'debating' them. A person usually want argue with themself.
Those who are meanspirited make them look all the better.