Wicked thoughts don't make a wicked person

[humble soul]

But it is debatable.
I mean if you wish I come to an early end, that is kind of wicked if you are really serious.
Goodwill is clearly important. We can at least try to wish goodwill on our enemies, even we don't feel like it.
But I think the main argument for the other side is, as long as we don't turn wicked thoughts into wicked actions. For anyone who suffers religious scrupulosity,it can be a real torment. Punishing yourself for having wicked thoughts is not healthy. At least we can admit to ourselves "I felt like punching that guy's lights out". Admit it. Own it. But as long as you don't act on it. We all have angry thoughts. I guess if we have too many, we need some counselling.
This is where ruthless honesty is important. Maybe some are afraid to admit to themselves, they have bad thoughts. Isn't that like lying to yourself? Being a good Christian doesn't mean erasing all bad thoughts. It might mean praying for good ones though. Healthier ones. Life affirming ones. Does Jesus really want us to be totally sinless in this life? I don't think so. I suspect he values humility and good attitude more.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Yep. It's also important to remember that intrusive thoughts (unwanted thoughts that are persistent and cause anxiety) do not reflect your morals. If I'm standing on a cliff, I might have a thought about jumping off. But that doesn't mean I want to jump off. It means my brain is processing information, and telling me.

 

[humble soul]

If I'm standing on a cliff, I might have a thought about jumping off. But that doesn't mean I want to jump off

Better you don't go anywhere near cliffs. ?

 

[Hospes]

Seems Jesus thought what goes in the heart is pretty central.

Matthew 15:8–20​

“ ‘This people honors me with their lips,​

but their heart is far from me;​

in vain do they worship me,​

teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”​

​

And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”​

 

[WIP]

"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Matthew 5:28 NKJV

And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Mark 7:20-23 NKJV

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 NKJV

 

[evenifigoalone]

Seems Jesus thought what goes in the heart is pretty central.

Matthew 15:8–20​

“ ‘This people honors me with their lips,​

but their heart is far from me;​

in vain do they worship me,​

teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”​

​

And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”​

"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Matthew 5:28 NKJV

And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Mark 7:20-23 NKJV

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 NKJV

What's being said here is that, basically, our brains process a lot of information. Just because we have a thought, does not mean that we want to act on it or that it reflects what we really think. Most people experience some manner of intrusive thoughts. You may have the sudden thought of stabbing someone or gouging your eye out: it doesn't mean you want to do those things, it was just a random thought, your brain processing information.
For an unfortunate few, these thoughts cause major distress. These people have OCD.

A type of OCD includes thoughts about violence, self harm, or sexual thoughts. These people are typically terrified that they will act on these thoughts and may be convinced they are a danger to others. However, this is not the case. Intrusive thoughts are not reflective of your morals or desires, and are not sins in and of themselves. The fact that these people are so distressed by the thoughts, shows their real reaction and moral standing. If you really wanted to stab someone, you wouldn't obsess over whether or not you actually want to and you wouldn't hate yourself for even thinking it. You would just do it.

 

[Serving Zion]

Most of the examples in this thread are violent. What makes a person want to "wish death upon another", or "feel like stabbing them" or "punching their lights out"? Surely these thoughts don't just come from nowhere. Somewhere in that person's history, they have developed a sense of distaste for the person that they are feeling violent toward. Also, the feeling needs to be triggered, so what is it that the other person is doing that triggers a violent emotion?

When we understand that the violent reaction (or the tendency to react violently if it is only in thought) isn't found in everybody, then we can see that it is possible for a person to react without violence. Therefore violence isn't necessarily the normal or natural response, even though it is finding a path of expression through that person at that time.

For example: road rage is quite a common expression of a violent tendency. Someone might become enraged if a person is selfishly cutting into the lane in front of them. Another person might simply accept it and make space without any feeling of resentment. Why does one person have a violent tendency and another does not?

Haven't you also seen that a person will sometimes feel angered if someone pulls into the lane ahead of them while at other times the same person will be patient and not offended? So what is making the difference between one and the other? Why does a person sometimes react with the fruits of the spirit (peace, patience, kindness, gentleness) while at other times they will react with the fruits of the flesh (hatred, contention, outburst of wrath, envy, murder)? (Galatians 5:19-23). Furthermore, that leads us to ask what is the natural, normal way for a human to behave and that leads us to ask where the opposite behaviour is coming from.

 

[Hospes]

What's being said here is that, basically, our brains process a lot of information. Just because we have a thought, does not mean that we want to act on it or that it reflects what we really think. Most people experience some manner of intrusive thoughts. You may have the sudden thought of stabbing someone or gouging your eye out: it doesn't mean you want to do those things, it was just a random thought, your brain processing information.
For an unfortunate few, these thoughts cause major distress. These people have OCD.

A type of OCD includes thoughts about violence, self harm, or sexual thoughts. These people are typically terrified that they will act on these thoughts and may be convinced they are a danger to others. However, this is not the case. Intrusive thoughts are not reflective of your morals or desires, and are not sins in and of themselves. The fact that these people are so distressed by the thoughts, shows their real reaction and moral standing. If you really wanted to stab someone, you wouldn't obsess over whether or not you actually want to and you wouldn't hate yourself for even thinking it. You would just do it.

I agree that much of our thoughts are not desired and not acted out. I think this is part of what Paul is presenting in Romans 7. Even as Believers, we are not yet fully conformed to God's character, even though as God's redeemed we are incrementally being made into HIs image, i.e. sanctification. The part of us that is not like Jesus, I think Paul would call "the flesh". The disorders of my thinking fall under the category of flesh. Either partially in my life here on earth or wholey when I leave this earth to be with Him, God will set me free of my fleshly disorders. For now - by God's choice and for His purposes - He has placed me in the battle against my flesh.

I also agree that, for the Christian, our moral standing before God - the only person of any importance - is not dependent on our flesh, but rather on the righteousness given to us by Jesus Christ. Nonetheless, I do recognize my flesh is an enemy to be despised, fought, and eventually by grace to be vanquished.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Most of the examples in this thread are violent. What makes a person want to "wish death upon another", or "feel like stabbing them" or "punching their lights out"? Surely these thoughts don't just come from nowhere. Somewhere in that person's history, they have developed a sense of distaste for the person that they are feeling violent toward. Also, the feeling needs to be triggered, so what is it that the other person is doing that triggers a violent emotion?

When we understand that the violent reaction (or the tendency to react violently if it is only in thought) isn't found in everybody, then we can see that it is possible for a person to react without violence. Therefore violence isn't necessarily the normal or natural response, even though it is finding a path of expression through that person at that time.

For example: road rage is quite a common expression of a violent tendency. Someone might become enraged if a person is selfishly cutting into the lane in front of them. Another person might simply accept it and make space without any feeling of resentment. Why does one person have a violent tendency and another does not?

Haven't you also seen that a person will sometimes feel angered if someone pulls into the lane ahead of them while at other times the same person will be patient and not offended? So what is making the difference between one and the other? Why does a person sometimes react with the fruits of the spirit (peace, patience, kindness, gentleness) while at other times they will react with the fruits of the flesh (hatred, contention, outburst of wrath, envy, murder)? (Galatians 5:19-23). Furthermore, that leads us to ask what is the natural, normal way for a human to behave and that leads us to ask where the opposite behaviour is coming from.

Intrusive thoughts, what I'm talking about, do come from nowhere. They're literally just random thoughts that you may have, and most people get them and most people are able to brush them off. Someone with OCD, which is an anxiety disorder, however, cannot.

 

[Serving Zion]

Intrusive thoughts, what I'm talking about, do come from nowhere.

It shows that you do not understand how thoughts happen. Of course you are in an overwhelming majority who also have no understanding of it. No baby has thoughts of violence, and it takes time for violence to find an opportunity for expression through a person. Furthermore, the world, being full of sinners, is a spiritual conspiracy to destroy the human form (that is, the image of God). That is why Jesus said "when an impure spirit comes out of a man, it wanders dry places not finding rest" and we can see that the demoniac who would break his iron shakles and lived in the graveyard was "in his proper mind" after receiving Jesus.

They're literally just random thoughts that you may have, and most people get them and most people are able to brush them off.

It isn't a type of thought that everybody gets, though. It is finding a way to enter your mind because it knows how to enter.

Someone with OCD, which is an anxiety disorder, however, cannot.

Is that the official opinion of the doctors you are under? No wonder you have no cure!

 

[evenifigoalone]

It shows that you do not understand how thoughts happen. Of course you are in an overwhelming majority who also have no understanding of it. No baby has thoughts of violence, and it takes time for violence to find an opportunity for expression through a person. Furthermore, the world, being full of sinners, is a spiritual conspiracy to destroy the human form (that is, the image of God). That is why Jesus said "when an impure spirit comes out of a man, it wanders dry places not finding rest" and we can see that the demonic who would break his iron shakles and lived in the graveyard was "in his proper mind" after receiving Jesus.


It isn't a type of thought that everybody gets, though. It is finding a way to enter your mind because it knows how to enter.

Is that the official opinion of the doctors you are under? No wonder there is no cure for you!

It is you who do not understand. Intrusive thoughts and OCD with a theme of abhorrent thoughts are well documented occurrences. Multiple mental illnesses feature intrusive thoughts, actually. (That said, just having an intrusive thought or two or on occasion doesn't mean you're mentally ill. The occasional intrusive thought is normal.)

 

[Serving Zion]

It is you who do not understand. Intrusive thoughts and OCD with a theme of abhorrent thoughts are well documented occurrences.

I do understand though.
"Make a tree good, it's fruit will be good".

 

[evenifigoalone]

I do understand though.
"Make a tree good, it's fruit will be good".

No, you really don't. Not every thought we have is a result of our own desires or subconscious. Some thoughts are just our brains processing random information, telling us "this is a possibility". Most people are able to brush off these occasional random thoughts and aren't too bothered by them. The reason someone with OCD cannot, is because their fight or flight instincts are working against them. Because the thought causes anxiety, the mind feels compelled to let you know about the thought because it perceives the thought as an active threat. So it keeps reminding of the thought, which keeps anxiety active which keeps reminding of the thought, and round and round the cycle goes.
The mind cannot tell the difference between physical danger and emotional danger, which is why this happens.

My information comes from official sources, I have read up on this and OCD pretty extensively.

 

[Serving Zion]

Because the thought causes anxiety

This is my point exactly. Why does it cause anxiety? Some examples would be useful.

My information comes from official sources

Secular sources, please be honest. My information is also from an official source, but it is the official source for Christian knowledge.

 

[evenifigoalone]

This is my point exactly. Why does it cause anxiety? Some examples would be useful.

Secular sources, please be honest. My information is also from an official source, but it is the official source for Christian knowledge.

I've had it up to here with your snobbery. Do you also reject medical information as "secular sources"? I bet you do.

Intrusive thoughts cause anxiety because they're upsetting by nature. Actually, the fact that they cause anxiety is proof that the sufferer isn't sinning: the anxiety and worry at having the thoughts reveals the person's true heart. If they were truly inclined to act on those thoughts, they wouldn't care.

 

[Serving Zion]

I've had it up to here with your snobbery. Do you also reject medical information as "secular sources"? I bet you do.

Intrusive thoughts cause anxiety because they're upsetting by nature. Actually, the fact that they cause anxiety is proof that the sufferer isn't sinning: the anxiety and worry at having the thoughts reveals the person's true heart. If they were truly inclined to act on those thoughts, they wouldn't care.

Just examples please.

 

[Edward]

What an interesting thread. What I have learned over time, and I'm not being dogmatic, this is merely my opinion but I do think I am right and my thinking on the subject is based on scripture.

First off, ntrusive evil thoughts can come upon anyone and having this initial thought is not evil or sinful immediately. But it is what we do with that thought when it first pops into our mind that is important.

2 Corinthians 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.../

So we are to take captive these thoughts to Christ. Ok, but what does that mean really? It simply means to not dwell on the thought. Think about Christ instead.

Philippians 4:7-9
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.../

The peace of God shall keep our hearts and minds. Hmm, our heart.../

Jerimiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.../

Proverbs 23:7
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.../

So there you have it. The intrusive evil thoughts can be coming from our own heart. Or they can come from the enemy. They are not random thoughts. But what we think on and dwell on leaves a residue in our mind for awhile. What you think about is what you connect with and who you become. (as a man thinks in his heart so is he). How many times have you woke up thinking about that movie or video you watched last night? Or a song and sometimes it will stick in your mind all day. So thoughts leave a residue. I used to think that, well I'd love to teach that guy a lesson, but of course I wont because I don't want to be that guy or get in trouble, but it's fun to think about and that is ok...That Is Not True. Dwelling on evil thoughts even if not acted out will at some point, go...whoosh Into your heart and becomes who you are. Not good. So how do we get rid of the evilness within our hearts?

I'm glad you asked, scripture tells us how. In Philippians 4, " whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things..../

And if we do think on these things instead of bad thoughts, these thoughts will leave residue in your mind and go into your heart also, and eventually the cup of your heart will runneth over and the evilness within will be forced out and replaced with the knowledge and righteousness of the Kingdom of God and who we will then become.

Now it has already been posted that, it is what comes out of a mans mouth that defiles him. Another scripture is,

James:3:10
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.../

Therefore, I believe that man speaks from the heart, and that every single word that a person speaks is either a curse or a blessing. So in laymans language, every single thing you say either serves to build up another or curse another and tear them down. This is very important in relationships. Husbands and wives fight and argue at times. But don't tear her down! And don't even talk behind peoples back about them to yourself or others. Gossiping, whoa. It can curse them. It will affect them and it will affect you also. So if you argue, fight fair. Don't cross lines and speak evil over people! It'll hurt you prolly more than them.

"you so and so, you're useless and lazy and have accomplished nothing!" Not only does it emit a curse unto them but it is programming your heart to be that same bad thing that you spoke. One day you'll wake up to find, wow, things have gone bad for me. How did that happen?

Our words have the power of life and death. They can bring joy or cause misery. Proverbs 18:21 puts it this way: “The tongue has the power of life and death.” The stakes are high. Your words can either speak life, or your words can speak death. Our tongues can build others up, or they can tear them down.

So best to reject those bad thoughts when they pop into your head the first time. Do not entertain those thoughts or that is who you will become and it shall become your reality.

...Or so it seems to me.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Dwelling on evil thoughts even if not acted out will at some point, go...whoosh Into your heart and becomes who you are.

No, and in fact this is a harmful message to give to those who deal with OCD.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Just examples please.

We are done speaking. Please don't ever get anywhere near someone with OCD until you learn some basic empathy.

 

[Serving Zion]

We are done speaking. Please don't ever get anywhere near someone with OCD until you learn some basic empathy.

I am interested in solid discussion. You are of a secular discipline that is opposed to Christian knowledge and you are not interested in discussing facts. Why did you begin arguing with me and also by deflecting what I have said? It is because you only want to propagate your secular views and argue against the Christian views I have presented. If you would discuss with me in a reasonable manner, then you would be grateful for my empathy.