Will all born-again Christians make it to heaven?

[gr8grace]

This would lead one to believe that a name can be blotted out...

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I agree with you, a name can be blotted out. That is because everybody has their name in the Book of life. God told Moses that He would Blot out a persons name who had sinned against him because Moses could not have his name blotted out, he was a believer. Not believing in Christ is how one gets their name blotted out.

Rev 22:19~~ "book" is a bad translation. "Staves" or tree is a better translation. It denotes blessings or positions(rewards) taken away. Rev 22:19 is not talking about the book of life.

Rev 3:5 is our Lord emphatically telling us that believers names cannot be removed from the book of life.

In the times that revelation was written the Romans had a registry of names for all citizens, the Roman Government was persecuting Christians and demanding that they renounce Christ. If they did not renounce Christ they were being erased from the Roman registry and branded as criminals. So our Lord is telling us that we will not have our names erased from the book of life.

That is an interesting point you brought up. Do you believe that once you are born-again that you can then become unborn-again? over and over?

Hello Grappler,(were you a wrestler) I was.

No I do not think we can be unborn. And I think that salvation is a moment in time and its done.

When I first got here there was a thread that was well laid out, and in my opinion had truths in it that would be VERY hard to deny. And I do not see ONE comment from all of the Conditional security people on here. I believe that there are verses in the Bible to BEGIN a certain doctrine, and the verses that we have been discussing Here are somewhat "tough" and obscure in some places. And we have been denying the easy, doctrine beginning verses.



John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Truly,truly or Amen,Amen is a point of doctrine being taught. It is used to emphasize that the kingdom of Darkness will attack it, And it is very important for the believer to believe it. It screams to us "PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT I AM SAYING!"

It does not say....one might come into judgement .....one could possibly come into judgement......It emphatically says WILL NOT come into judgement.

 

[John 8:32]

You have provided no evidence that 2 Peter is speaking about unsaved individuals

What do you feel Peter meant by: What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:22 ESV)

???
Who's the "them" (saved or un-saved)? What is true about his proverb reference?

Not presuming to answer for Francis, this is my own thinking...

The dog had regurgitated something because it was indigestible, the sow was washed from filth. I think both of these statements indicate they went from a previously unconverted condition to one of conversion and acceptance but they went back to the previous condition. I do believe this line of thinking is supported by...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Returning to sin as a way of life. Everyone sins, and no one holds a gun to one's head forcing one to, this is covered by James...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin, when it is finished, when it's work is complete, indicating a pattern of continued sin...

From Bullingers...

James 1:15


when lust, &c. = lust, having conceived.

sin. App-128.

finished = completely finished. Greek. apoteleo. Only here.

bringeth forth. Greek. apokueo. Only here and Jam_1:18.

death. See Rom_6:21.

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

One who sins and then genuinely repents is forgiven. The best example I can think of is David, Bathsheba and Uriah. His unrepentant attitude went on for at least nine months...

2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

The child had been born, it was a full nine months and some time since the adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah. Now notice verse 13, this was not just a casual recognition that "hey, that may not have been the best thing to do", it was realization of the awful reality of the sins involved. We find the account of David's heartfelt repentance in Psalm 51.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Read the last two verses carefully, the just live by faith, but God is not happy with those who draw back. In fact, it is possible to draw back 'unto perdition'. The word for perdition is...

G684
ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

One can draw back to destruction, damnation. Draw back from what? Illumination with the Holy Spirit...

Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Grappler]

This would lead one to believe that a name can be blotted out...

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I agree with you, a name can be blotted out. That is because everybody has their name in the Book of life. God told Moses that He would Blot out a persons name who had sinned against him because Moses could not have his name blotted out, he was a believer. Not believing in Christ is how one gets their name blotted out.

Rev 22:19~~ "book" is a bad translation. "Staves" or tree is a better translation. It denotes blessings or positions(rewards) taken away. Rev 22:19 is not talking about the book of life.

Rev 3:5 is our Lord emphatically telling us that believers names cannot be removed from the book of life.

In the times that revelation was written the Romans had a registry of names for all citizens, the Roman Government was persecuting Christians and demanding that they renounce Christ. If they did not renounce Christ they were being erased from the Roman registry and branded as criminals. So our Lord is telling us that we will not have our names erased from the book of life.

I have not researched the thought that everyone's name is initially in the Book of Life. I THINK (and I emphasize think here) that the Book contains nothing and ones name is added at conversion. I also think one's name can be removed acoording to Heb 10 and the verses I cited earlier, as far as name written initially, I must refrain from commenting without scriptural references to make a determination from.

Allow me to introduce you to some more scripture that will ease your mind and you won't have to worry about getting your name "blotted" out. Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." As you can read here it has all been planned out before you were even born. Here is some more for you Romans 8:28-30 "28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." See?? Nothing to worry about God is in control.

 

[farouk]

Heb10:14 (ESV)14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.[/SIZE][/I][/B]


[/INDENT]

Great verse!

 

[John 8:32]

This would lead one to believe that a name can be blotted out...

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I agree with you, a name can be blotted out. That is because everybody has their name in the Book of life. God told Moses that He would Blot out a persons name who had sinned against him because Moses could not have his name blotted out, he was a believer. Not believing in Christ is how one gets their name blotted out.

Rev 22:19~~ "book" is a bad translation. "Staves" or tree is a better translation. It denotes blessings or positions(rewards) taken away. Rev 22:19 is not talking about the book of life.

Rev 3:5 is our Lord emphatically telling us that believers names cannot be removed from the book of life.

In the times that revelation was written the Romans had a registry of names for all citizens, the Roman Government was persecuting Christians and demanding that they renounce Christ. If they did not renounce Christ they were being erased from the Roman registry and branded as criminals. So our Lord is telling us that we will not have our names erased from the book of life.

I have not researched the thought that everyone's name is initially in the Book of Life. I THINK (and I emphasize think here) that the Book contains nothing and ones name is added at conversion. I also think one's name can be removed acoording to Heb 10 and the verses I cited earlier, as far as name written initially, I must refrain from commenting without scriptural references to make a determination from.

Allow me to introduce you to some more scripture that will ease your mind and you won't have to worry about getting your name "blotted" out. Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." As you can read here it has all been planned out before you were even born. Here is some more for you Romans 8:28-30 "28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." See?? Nothing to worry about God is in control.

What I have not researched is if one's name is in the Book of Life from time immemorial, I am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is invalid.

 

[John Zain]

"But he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13)
IMO, this refers to one's faith, perseverance, etc. with regard to eternal salvation.

Matthew 10:22 NKJV - And you shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake (the offense of the Cross) : but he who endures to the end shall be saved (persecution will continue until the Second Coming). You should always post the full scripture and have wisdom and understanding from the Holy Spirit. A Christian becomes a messenger for Satan ministry which is the "spirit of the world" (God's enemy) when you practice this sin. To spread condemnation is of the Devil's nature.

For those interested, here are some Scriptures supporting my view,
and the view of other commentators ...
1 Cor 16:13 ... Gal 5:1 ... Eph 6:14-15 ... Phil 4:1 ... Col 1:22-23 ...
Heb 10:35-36 ... James 5:8 ... 1 Pet 5:9

[edited by staff]

 

[chessman]

I think both of these statements indicate they went from a previously unconverted condition to one of conversion and acceptance but they went back to the previous condition.

Exactly one of my points. These false prophets wind up in in Hell, either way. So how could it be that this passage answers OSAS=no? They wind up un-saved, not saved. Let my look/consider your other verses analysis. I've not looked at it yet. Just thought I'd ask this question first.

 

[Grappler]

This would lead one to believe that a name can be blotted out...

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I agree with you, a name can be blotted out. That is because everybody has their name in the Book of life. God told Moses that He would Blot out a persons name who had sinned against him because Moses could not have his name blotted out, he was a believer. Not believing in Christ is how one gets their name blotted out.

Rev 22:19~~ "book" is a bad translation. "Staves" or tree is a better translation. It denotes blessings or positions(rewards) taken away. Rev 22:19 is not talking about the book of life.

Rev 3:5 is our Lord emphatically telling us that believers names cannot be removed from the book of life.

In the times that revelation was written the Romans had a registry of names for all citizens, the Roman Government was persecuting Christians and demanding that they renounce Christ. If they did not renounce Christ they were being erased from the Roman registry and branded as criminals. So our Lord is telling us that we will not have our names erased from the book of life.

That is an interesting point you brought up. Do you believe that once you are born-again that you can then become unborn-again? over and over?

Hello Grappler,(were you a wrestler) I was.

No I do not think we can be unborn. And I think that salvation is a moment in time and its done.

When I first got here there was a thread that was well laid out, and in my opinion had truths in it that would be VERY hard to deny. And I do not see ONE comment from all of the Conditional security people on here. I believe that there are verses in the Bible to BEGIN a certain doctrine, and the verses that we have been discussing Here are somewhat "tough" and obscure in some places. And we have been denying the easy, doctrine beginning verses.



John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Truly,truly or Amen,Amen is a point of doctrine being taught. It is used to emphasize that the kingdom of Darkness will attack it, And it is very important for the believer to believe it. It screams to us "PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT I AM SAYING!"

It does not say....one might come into judgement .....one could possibly come into judgement......It emphatically says WILL NOT come into judgement.

No i didn't wrestle in highschool...we didn't have a team. I train submission grappling, BJJ, and even a little MMA sometimes but mainly submission grappling. We emphasize more ground-fighting than we do take-downs...a good wrestler would put me on my rearend but he might submitted in the process.lol Well i am glad that you agree that one can not be un-born. That whole idea is rather silly to put it nicely...though i doubt you would agree with me on other issues concerning salvation. I hope that you didn't take my views on our military too personal. I don't necessarily have anything against the lower level military people. They are just pawns being used by the rich and powerful..."War pigs" as the song goes.

 

[chessman]

I think both of these statements indicate they went from a previously unconverted condition to one of conversion and acceptance but they went back to the previous condition.

The other point I was making about 2 Peter 2 (way back when) is that I don't see 2 Peter 2 as EVER describing them, and I mean ever, as "converted, saved". I get this not because I desire it to be true, but rather because the text actually says it (in my opinion based on the Scripture). Here’s why:

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"
​

That's a big IF, in this case. But again, it's a point within a point. I see your and Francis' point about the conditional statement. One doesn't even have to agree with my point here yet still understand that 2 Peter 2 cannot be used to prove OSAS=no. Since, they (false prophets) don't wind up being un-saved. They wind up un-saved, clearly. But back to the analysis of the conditional verses.

IF they were ever saved “to one of conversion”, as you put it, is a good question. But my point is this Scripture never says they were, concerted (saved).

It says: “escaped the defilements of the world”. That’s just not clear enough, basically, to build a doctrine around. I hope that’s not disrespectful to your point. I don’t mean it to be. You have made a good point to consider. And I have.

I hate to muddle up this post with aside points, but I will. All the banter, off topic posts and disrespectful jabs, make these A&T threads less useful (not that you have done that here or above). You've made a good/appropriate response to my question to Francis. Thanks. It's enlightening and useful to me and potentially others reading.

Now I’ll look at your other arguments from other Scriptures momentarily.

 

[gr8grace]

That is an interesting point you brought up. Do you believe that once you are born-again that you can then become unborn-again? over and over?

Hello Grappler,(were you a wrestler) I was.

No I do not think we can be unborn. And I think that salvation is a moment in time and its done.

When I first got here there was a thread that was well laid out, and in my opinion had truths in it that would be VERY hard to deny. And I do not see ONE comment from all of the Conditional security people on here. I believe that there are verses in the Bible to BEGIN a certain doctrine, and the verses that we have been discussing Here are somewhat "tough" and obscure in some places. And we have been denying the easy, doctrine beginning verses.



John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Truly,truly or Amen,Amen is a point of doctrine being taught. It is used to emphasize that the kingdom of Darkness will attack it, And it is very important for the believer to believe it. It screams to us "PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT I AM SAYING!"

It does not say....one might come into judgement .....one could possibly come into judgement......It emphatically says WILL NOT come into judgement.

No i didn't wrestle in highschool...we didn't have a team. I train submission grappling, BJJ, and even a little MMA sometimes but mainly submission grappling. We emphasize more ground-fighting than we do take-downs...a good wrestler would put me on my rearend but he might submitted in the process.lol Well i am glad that you agree that one can not be un-born. That whole idea is rather silly to put it nicely...though i doubt you would agree with me on other issues concerning salvation. I hope that you didn't take my views on our military too personal. I don't necessarily have anything against the lower level military people. They are just pawns being used by the rich and powerful..."War pigs" as the song goes.

I am way to old for that stuff, but like to watch it. Boxing is my "football" though. Wings and a good brew!

No offense taken, Just a good heated debate. It is hard to take things personal anymore.

I am going to see if I can find that Eternal security thread. I would be interested to see if some here would jump into it.

 

[John 8:32]

I think both of these statements indicate they went from a previously unconverted condition to one of conversion and acceptance but they went back to the previous condition.

The other point I was making about 2 Peter 2 (way back when) is that I don't see 2 Peter 2 as EVER describing them, and I mean ever, as "converted, saved". I get this not because I desire it to be true, but rather because the text actually says it (in my opinion based on the Scripture). Here’s why:

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"
​

That's a big IF, in this case. But again, it's a point within a point. I see your and Francis' point about the conditional statement. One doesn't even have to agree with my point here yet still understand that 2 Peter 2 cannot be used to prove OSAS=no. Since, they (false prophets) don't wind up being saved. They wind up un-saved, clearly. But back to the analysis of the conditional verses.

IF they were ever saved “to one of conversion”, as you put it, is a good question. But my point is this Scripture never says they were, concerted (saved).

It says: “escaped the defilements of the world”. That’s just not clear enough, basically, to build a doctrine around. I hope that’s not disrespectful to your point. I don’t mean it to be. You have made a good point to consider. And I have.

I hate to muddle up this post with aside points, but I will. All the banter, off topic posts and disrespectful jabs, make these A&T threads less useful (not that you have done that here or above). You've made a good/appropriate response to my question to Francis. Thanks. It's enlightening and useful to me and potentially others reading.

Now I’ll look at your other arguments from other Scriptures momentarily.

Paul contends that these false prophets can either be from the outside (unconverted) or from the inside (converted)...

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

These wolves infiltrated the flock and led many away.

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Now notice these, arising from 'your own selves'. These were from the flock. There is even indication some of Paul's close associates fell away...

2Ti 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

 

[Grappler]

I have not researched the thought that everyone's name is initially in the Book of Life. I THINK (and I emphasize think here) that the Book contains nothing and ones name is added at conversion. I also think one's name can be removed acoording to Heb 10 and the verses I cited earlier, as far as name written initially, I must refrain from commenting without scriptural references to make a determination from.

Allow me to introduce you to some more scripture that will ease your mind and you won't have to worry about getting your name "blotted" out. Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." As you can read here it has all been planned out before you were even born. Here is some more for you Romans 8:28-30 "28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." See?? Nothing to worry about God is in control.

What I have not researched is if one's name is in the Book of Life from time immemorial, I am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is invalid.

And i am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is valid.[edited by staff]

 

[Grappler]

That is an interesting point you brought up. Do you believe that once you are born-again that you can then become unborn-again? over and over?

Hello Grappler,(were you a wrestler) I was.

No I do not think we can be unborn. And I think that salvation is a moment in time and its done.

When I first got here there was a thread that was well laid out, and in my opinion had truths in it that would be VERY hard to deny. And I do not see ONE comment from all of the Conditional security people on here. I believe that there are verses in the Bible to BEGIN a certain doctrine, and the verses that we have been discussing Here are somewhat "tough" and obscure in some places. And we have been denying the easy, doctrine beginning verses.



John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.â€

Truly,truly or Amen,Amen is a point of doctrine being taught. It is used to emphasize that the kingdom of Darkness will attack it, And it is very important for the believer to believe it. It screams to us "PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT I AM SAYING!"

It does not say....one might come into judgement .....one could possibly come into judgement......It emphatically says WILL NOT come into judgement.

No i didn't wrestle in highschool...we didn't have a team. I train submission grappling, BJJ, and even a little MMA sometimes but mainly submission grappling. We emphasize more ground-fighting than we do take-downs...a good wrestler would put me on my rearend but he might submitted in the process.lol Well i am glad that you agree that one can not be un-born. That whole idea is rather silly to put it nicely...though i doubt you would agree with me on other issues concerning salvation. I hope that you didn't take my views on our military too personal. I don't necessarily have anything against the lower level military people. They are just pawns being used by the rich and powerful..."War pigs" as the song goes.

I am way to old for that stuff, but like to watch it. Boxing is my "football" though. Wings and a good brew!

No offense taken, Just a good heated debate. It is hard to take things personal anymore.

I am going to see if I can find that Eternal security thread. I would be interested to see if some here would jump into it.

Ok i am glad you didn't...we can agree to disagree in polite manner.

 

[John 8:32]

I have not researched the thought that everyone's name is initially in the Book of Life. I THINK (and I emphasize think here) that the Book contains nothing and ones name is added at conversion. I also think one's name can be removed acoording to Heb 10 and the verses I cited earlier, as far as name written initially, I must refrain from commenting without scriptural references to make a determination from.

Allow me to introduce you to some more scripture that will ease your mind and you won't have to worry about getting your name "blotted" out. Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." As you can read here it has all been planned out before you were even born. Here is some more for you Romans 8:28-30 "28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." See?? Nothing to worry about God is in control.

What I have not researched is if one's name is in the Book of Life from time immemorial, I am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is invalid.

And i am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is valid.[edited by staff]

We will have to agree to disagree agreeably on this point.

 

[chessman]

I do believe this line of thinking is supported by... Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I don’t take “sin willfully†to equal un-saved. Especially since the same author just got through saying:
Heb10:14 (ESV)14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
I think this author understand all people (even him) sins (pre and post conversion). He may very well be distinguishing a type or severity within sin “willful†versus another type that just comes via our flesh. Such as Paul makes clear is still within him.
But, ironically, if that’s the proper term, this author is actually (given the broader context of Hebrews) making the very same point that Peter is making. Don’t continue to sacrifice animals when Jesus IS the perfect sacrifice. Now if one were of the opinion that every sin = damnation to Hell (or at least the very big, mortal, ones) then I see your point. But I don’t find that in Scripture. That (mortal sins) would be off-topic to continue to argue that further here, but another good OP thread maybe.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I agree, this passage teaches

Everyone sins

I don’t think it teaches man sins, stops sinning, then begins to sin again.

One who sins and then genuinely repents is forgiven

I agree. I simply don’t think you have to “genuinely repent†over and over again to be saved. Now it’s true that the Holy Spirit will maintain a sense of conviction within those that are “genuinely†saved. I think this same Hebrews author makes this particular point pretty clear:
Heb10:14 (ESV)14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
I’m sorry but I don’t see your OSAS point in 2 Samuel 12 unless you are saying that this passage:

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

means David was “savedâ€, then un-saved via adultery and murder, then re-saved. That’s that “mortal sin†topic, I suppose. I don’t see your OSAS=no, point here. I read it just for exactly what it says. David sin, yet the Lord put it away. I don’t see where it says David was ever un-saved.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Read the last two verses carefully, the just live by faith, but God is not happy with those who draw back. In fact, it is possible to draw back 'unto perdition'. The word for perdition is...

I read and considered your point. A very good one, I might add. Basically, the same point that Francis was making about 2 Peter 2.

I actually think the ESV does the best (un-biased either way) job with 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.</SPAN>

But that’s just me, I suppose. I read this as consistent with Jesus’ sheep and goats analogy.. I don’t think the author in Heb 1:39 is being inconsistent with what he said in Heb Heb10:14 (ESV)14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Nor do I feel that he’s totally re-wording or changing the point/subject that he just made in 10:38 by quoting the O.T. messianic prophecy with “and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.â€. He’s actually saying/proving that the time of “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;†has actually occurred in Christ. So stop killing animals!!!
So the biggest point here is that the subject of Heb 10 is returning to the sacrifice of animals. That’s the “shrink back†that is obviously being discussed by this author here. Today, in these times, I’m unaware of any Christian that is contemplating “shrinking back†in terms of re-instituting sacrificing animals. So, to me, Heb 10 off subject for OSAS, to begin with.

Maybe (if, but/if, however you want to say it) I were to forget and totally ignore Christ’s sacrifice for me, I could become “un-savedâ€. I’m not going to, however. In Christ, we don’t have that option. Don’t see how that’s possible for ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE, that’s truly given their heart to Christ. That’s the point of OSAS.

That doesn’t take away from the fact that:

1. “but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him†is a very true statement. God hates sin (always has, always will). I get that.

2. I get that “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sinâ€. But it’s forgiven sin, for us elect!

3. I have sinned against the LORD [David’s adultery]. Yep, Adultery is sin.

You say “

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

â€.
Are you arguing for oragainst OSAS with this verse? To me, it scripturally says the same thing that I’ve been saying. True Christians are not going to be “un-enlightenedâ€. It’s actually just that simple.

 

[John 8:32]

I don’t take “sin willfully” to equal un-saved. Especially since the same author just got through saying:
Heb10:14 (ESV)14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
I think this author understand all people (even him) sins (pre and post conversion). He may very well be distinguishing a type or severity within sin “willful” versus another type that just comes via our flesh. Such as Paul makes clear is still within him.
But, ironically, if that’s the proper term, this author is actually (given the broader context of Hebrews) making the very same point that Peter is making. Don’t continue to sacrifice animals when Jesus IS the perfect sacrifice. Now if one were of the opinion that every sin = damnation to Hell (or at least the very big, mortal, ones) then I see your point. But I don’t find that in Scripture. That (mortal sins) would be off-topic to continue to argue that further here, but another good OP thread maybe.

I am of the opinion that any sin that we choose and refuse to repent of, one we continue in because we love it more than God = damnation to hell. Sinning wilfully is not to continue in sin for a season as David did, come to our senses and repent, sinning wilfully is to choose the way or life of sin in place of the way or life God holds out to us.

I agree, this passage teaches I don’t think it teaches man sins, stops sinning, then begins to sin again.

One who sins and then genuinely repents is forgiven

I agree. I simply don’t think you have to “genuinely repent” over and over again to be saved. Now it’s true that the Holy Spirit will maintain a sense of conviction within those that are “genuinely” saved. I think this same Hebrews author makes this particular point pretty clear:
Heb10:14 (ESV)14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

So, let's say that I, after 43 years of conversion, repeat David's sin. You think there is no need for me to repent? No need to feel sorrow, remorse and determination never to do that again? No need for me to go to God in prayer and beg His forgiveness because it was all settled years ago in 1970? I don't need Christ's intercession?

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We only do this once? The sense of the passage indicates it occurs regularly.

I’m sorry but I don’t see your OSAS point in 2 Samuel 12 unless you are saying that this passage:

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

means David was “saved”, then un-saved via adultery and murder, then re-saved. That’s that “mortal sin” topic, I suppose. I don’t see your OSAS=no, point here. I read it just for exactly what it says. David sin, yet the Lord put it away. I don’t see where it says David was ever un-saved.

The passage in II Samuel says nothing about being saved and unsaved and saved. It says that David sinned, repented of that sin and was forgiven for it. Had he not repented, but chose to continue in that mindset, what do you think would have happened to him? Had he chosen to continue in sin would he have remained in a "saved" condition?

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Read the last two verses carefully, the just live by faith, but God is not happy with those who draw back. In fact, it is possible to draw back 'unto perdition'. The word for perdition is...

I read and considered your point. A very good one, I might add. Basically, the same point that Francis was making about 2 Peter 2.

I actually think the ESV does the best (un-biased either way) job with 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.&lt;/SPAN&gt;

But that’s just me, I suppose. I read this as consistent with Jesus’ sheep and goats analogy.. I don’t think the author in Heb 1:39 is being inconsistent with what he said in Heb Heb10:14 (ESV)14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Nor do I feel that he’s totally re-wording or changing the point/subject that he just made in 10:38 by quoting the O.T. messianic prophecy with “and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”. He’s actually saying/proving that the time of “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;” has actually occurred in Christ. So stop killing animals!!!
So the biggest point here is that the subject of Heb 10 is returning to the sacrifice of animals. That’s the “shrink back” that is obviously being discussed by this author here. Today, in these times, I’m unaware of any Christian that is contemplating “shrinking back” in terms of re-instituting sacrificing animals. So, to me, Heb 10 off subject for OSAS, to begin with.

Maybe (if, but/if, however you want to say it) I were to forget and totally ignore Christ’s sacrifice for me, I could become “un-saved”. I’m not going to, however. In Christ, we don’t have that option. Don’t see how that’s possible for ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE, that’s truly given their heart to Christ. That’s the point of OSAS.

That doesn’t take away from the fact that:

1. “but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him” is a very true statement. God hates sin (always has, always will). I get that.

2. I get that “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin”. But it’s forgiven sin, for us elect!

Even unrepented sin? How about a serial child molester? He just keeps doing it and God has already forgiven it? He has no need to stop?

3. I have sinned against the LORD [David’s adultery]. Yep, Adultery is sin.

And the wages of sin is eternal life in the Kingdom?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Unrepented sin, wilfull sin results in death. Repentance is a life long process because we continue to sin...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Notice John writes this in present tense? Continuing...

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

We should not sin, but if we do we have an advocate, a High Priest that makes intercession for us.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

What would a sin not unto death be? One that is repented of. Again the example of David, he was sorry he committed adultery, sorry he murdered Uriah, sorry he lied about it and went to God with this sorrow and also the resolve not to do it again.

You say “

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

”.
Are you arguing for or against OSAS with this verse? To me, it scripturally says the same thing that I’ve been saying. True Christians are not going to be “un-enlightened”. It’s actually just that simple.

And yet we read...

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Verse 4 through 5 says that these were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come and then fell away. Further it says it is impossible to renew them to repentance and put the Son of God to an open shame...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Going back to the vomit and wallowing in the filth is to go back to the way of sinful life we came out of. It is also treading the Son of God underfoot, counting His blood as an unholy thing and doing despite to the Holy Spirit and we know where that leads...

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[John Zain]

John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Our English renderings of such verses as John 5:24 may really be misleading!

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo”
implies an authentic, active, abiding belief in Jesus.

However, there are other instances when “pisteuo” is used
in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!

IMO, “believes in” in John 5:24 (and a couple of others) must mean:
depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers
about falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.

But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

 

[gr8grace]

John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Our English renderings of such verses as John 5:24 may really be misleading!

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo”
implies an authentic, active, abiding belief in Jesus.

However, there are other instances when “pisteuo” is used
in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!

IMO, “believes in” in John 5:24 (and a couple of others) must mean:
depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers
about falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.

But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

John Zain,

That is why this verse is for eternal security, It is not a salvation verse. It is the principle of salvation, and describes eternal security....the point of doctrine in the verse. John 5:24

1 John 5:11-12~~11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

It is the principle and the Fathers Plan in salvation that is described in John 5:24~~By believing ON the Son, you believe the plan of the Father, and thereby have salvation forever and ever.

 

[francisdesales]

You have provided no evidence that 2 Peter is speaking about unsaved individuals

What do you feel Peter meant by: What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.†(2 Peter 2:22 ESV)

???
Who's the "them" (saved or un-saved)? What is true about his proverb reference?

We all begin in "vomit", a life of sin, chessman. Is that not correct?

Anyone who has been FREED from sin, as Peter describes in v 20, 21 - and then RETURNS to that life of sin, has returned to "vomit".

I think this is quite clear.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You have provided no evidence that 2 Peter is speaking about unsaved individuals

What do you feel Peter meant by: What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.†(2 Peter 2:22 ESV)

???
Who's the &quot;them&quot; (saved or un-saved)? What is true about his proverb reference?

Not presuming to answer for Francis, this is my own thinking...

The dog had regurgitated something because it was indigestible, the sow was washed from filth. I think both of these statements indicate they went from a previously unconverted condition to one of conversion and acceptance but they went back to the previous condition. I do believe this line of thinking is supported by...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Returning to sin as a way of life. Everyone sins, and no one holds a gun to one's head forcing one to, this is covered by James...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin, when it is finished, when it's work is complete, indicating a pattern of continued sin...

From Bullingers...

James 1:15


when lust, &c. = lust, having conceived.

sin. App-128.

finished = completely finished. Greek. apoteleo. Only here.

bringeth forth. Greek. apokueo. Only here and Jam_1:18.

death. See Rom_6:21.

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

One who sins and then genuinely repents is forgiven. The best example I can think of is David, Bathsheba and Uriah. His unrepentant attitude went on for at least nine months...

2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

The child had been born, it was a full nine months and some time since the adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah. Now notice verse 13, this was not just a casual recognition that "hey, that may not have been the best thing to do", it was realization of the awful reality of the sins involved. We find the account of David's heartfelt repentance in Psalm 51.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Read the last two verses carefully, the just live by faith, but God is not happy with those who draw back. In fact, it is possible to draw back 'unto perdition'. The word for perdition is...

G684
ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

One can draw back to destruction, damnation. Draw back from what? Illumination with the Holy Spirit...

Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hey, if you are going to answer for me like that, carry on!!!

Regards