Will all born-again Christians make it to heaven?

[francisdesales]

LOL!!!... In our discussions, all you have stated is basically "chessman has stated it as so"...

Are you laughing at me and my statements or are you laughing at

“What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.†(2 Peter 2:22 ESV)
​

???

I am not laughing at you, chessman, you seem to be a nice, honest fellow.

I am laughing at the conclusion you made in that post, the 'summary'. In our discussion, I do not recall you making your point with such certain decisiveness based upon the text as you lead us to believe in the post I was responding to. Thus, my remark about "chessman has stated it as so", since there is really no logical argument to defend your position other than one from "chessman authority", if you will.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I have not researched the thought that everyone's name is initially in the Book of Life. I THINK (and I emphasize think here) that the Book contains nothing and ones name is added at conversion. I also think one's name can be removed acoording to Heb 10 and the verses I cited earlier, as far as name written initially, I must refrain from commenting without scriptural references to make a determination from.

Allow me to introduce you to some more scripture that will ease your mind and you won't have to worry about getting your name "blotted" out. Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." As you can read here it has all been planned out before you were even born. Here is some more for you Romans 8:28-30 "28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." See?? Nothing to worry about God is in control.

What I have not researched is if one's name is in the Book of Life from time immemorial, I am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is invalid.

Indeed, it is utterly amazing to me how many people have peeked at the Book of Life, convinced that they are in it - and THEN, they fall away and everyone presumes that the peek was really not a peek but wishful thinking. The whole idea is nuts. It offers no security.

At least I know I have been saved. Utterly and without doubt. The OSAS can't even know that, because they don't know if they have just been tricked into thinking they have, for 5 years from now, they might end up in adultery or some other grievious sin and fall away from the Lord - and all the while, finding "they never were saved". Oops...

The issue should not be over whether one is saved, for everyone baptized is saved. The issue is whether one REMAINS in Christ. For heaven's sake, why is this such a difficult thing to see in Scriptures???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Our English renderings of such verses as John 5:24 may really be misleading!

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo”
implies an authentic, active, abiding belief in Jesus.

However, there are other instances when “pisteuo” is used
in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!

IMO, “believes in” in John 5:24 (and a couple of others) must mean:
depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers
about falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.

But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

John Zain,

That is why this verse is for eternal security, It is not a salvation verse. It is the principle of salvation, and describes eternal security....the point of doctrine in the verse. John 5:24

1 John 5:11-12~~11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

It is the principle and the Fathers Plan in salvation that is described in John 5:24~~By believing ON the Son, you believe the plan of the Father, and thereby have salvation forever and ever.

"Eternal life" is not equated with eschatological salvation, for eternal life is Jesus Christ's abiding presence within us. HE is the way, the truth AND THE LIFE. As long as we abide in Him, we have a guarantee of eternal life. That's the promise.

So persevere. Until the end. For as long as you have Christ, you have eternal life.

1 John 5:12.

Regards

 

[chessman]

Paul contends that these false prophets can either be from the outside (unconverted) or from the inside (converted)... Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. These wolves infiltrated the flock and led many away.

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Now notice these, arising from 'your own selves'. These were from the flock. There is even indication some of Paul's close associates fell away...

Notice how that you assume that "grievous wolves" are un-converted and that the men inside “speaking perverse things†are “unconverting†others. Yet this passage never defines either as saved versus un-saved to draw any conclusions from on that subject. It's a bold assumption to make that they are either-way when we have Paul saying things (while he's on the salvation topic) like:

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
​

In Acts 20, he’s on the topic of teaching the elders how to protect the church from “twisted thingsâ€, not exactly a proof text for eternal salvation.

He actually tells us why he told the elders this in 35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak. Nobody has ever said saved people are not “weakâ€.

Never does he say by working hard, you reach salvation.

Notice how the passages that are actually speaking of final judgment are as clear as a bell. Yet, day-to-day life passages all the way from Adam, to David, to the churches of the Apostle's time simply describe behaviors (sins) as contrary to God’s will. They do not answer the pertinent question of their final destination. But when He (God) speaks of the "final judgment", he's emphatic about what God's going to do there.

 

[chessman]

We all begin in "vomit", a life of sin, chessman. Is that not correct?

yes, that's correct. But Peter tells us God knows how to rescue “the godly†until the day of judgment. All of 2 Peter 2 is about this major Premise to a logical argument he is making toward proving this point with several examples.

2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.
​

From here Peter uses the examples of Noah (who sinned even later, after the flood, by the way) and Lot as great examples of how he “rescues†his people. Just to what extremes He’ll go to keep them “savedâ€, that is. He (peter) then contrasts how God treats these people (the Godly) versus the fallen angels and Sodom and Gomorrah with “false prophetsâ€, examples.

Anyone who has been FREED from sin, as Peter describes in v 20, 21 - and then RETURNS to that life of sin, has returned to "vomit".

However, I do not believe the Scripture says what you say it does in vs 20-21. It says “after they have escaped the defilements of the worldâ€. Within Peter’s subject here he’s obviously talking about those that stopped the sensual/sexual practices mentioned in vs 18 (IF they even ever really did stop it privately only publicly), then returned to it. That’s all. Nothing about their “escaping†equating to salvation or anything like that. Furthermore, the “known the way of righteousness†in vs 21 equates in no way to salvation. Even the Devil “knows†the way of righteousness. He simply hates it, just as these dogs and pigs did. </SPAN>

But regardless, as described in 2:9 (their day of judgment) or in 2:22 their final destination is Hell.

There’s where we disagree, however. FREED from sin in verse 20-21 is not there in the sense that you say it is. They simply stopped making animal sacrifices for a while (maybe), then returned to those same practices. Peter is precisely arguing AGAINIST the very thing you are suggesting (in and out of true salvation), ironically.
That's why he says, these people are :

2 Peter 2:12 like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,</SPAN>
​

For these reason (not just my "statment") I see no in/out of salvation in 2 Peter 2, from their birth to their end, including in vs 20-21.

 

[chessman]

...you seem to be a nice, honest fellow.

Now your making sense and using good logic. Just kidding! I do appreciate your time/effort. I honeslty had no idea where people were getting anything else but OSAS=yes, out of the Bible. What Scriptures support it that is. At least, now I know what Scriptures are being used for the OSAS=no argument.

We all begin in "vomit", a life of sin, chessman. Is that not correct?

It's interesting that you finally comment on the summary passage of 2 Peter 2 and you say “we begin in vomit†when the whole point of the Proverb and Peter's even mentioning it, is that dogs end up in vomit. That conclusion of yours about Peter’s point is good for a laugh. It’s called the “irrelevant conclusion†within logic.

since there is really no logical argument to defend your position other than one from "chessman authority", if you will.

Evidently I’m not the only person that is so silly to see Peter’s point in 2 Peter 2 in this world. From the ESV study committee notes on 2 Peter 2:

Peter turns to a detailed argument proving God’s certain judgment on the false teachers. He uses a rabbinic form of proof that moves from minor premise to major premise (if A is true, how much more is B also true), and his analogies in 4–8, amount to minor premises leading to the major premise of vv. 9–10a.
​

I just found this to double check that I was not simply being as “laughable†as you claim.

LOL!!! You have provided no evidence that 2 Peter is speaking about unsaved individuals.

Do you really think comments such as that and to others that you make so often to people on this thread convenience anyone that your correct? Those type statements of yours (even in response to someone else are called Ad hominem arguments, or insulting someone's character, or for you, I’ll just say childish.
They’re mostly used when someone has no other logical argument to present toward their case. It’s a last resort.

 

[Grappler]

What I have not researched is if one's name is in the Book of Life from time immemorial, I am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is invalid.

And i am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is valid.[edited by staff]

We will have to agree to disagree agreeably on this point.

Sounds great...looks like the moderator didn't like my sense of humor...oh well i will walk my life in full confindence and you can walk you life wondering if you are going to hear those dreaded words..."depart from me i never knew you".

 

[Grappler]

John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Our English renderings of such verses as John 5:24 may really be misleading!

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo”
implies an authentic, active, abiding belief in Jesus.

However, there are other instances when “pisteuo” is used
in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!

IMO, “believes in” in John 5:24 (and a couple of others) must mean:
depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers
about falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.

But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

Not sure what you are talking about...i don't remember posting that verse.

 

[Grappler]

John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Our English renderings of such verses as John 5:24 may really be misleading!

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo”
implies an authentic, active, abiding belief in Jesus.

However, there are other instances when “pisteuo” is used
in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!

IMO, “believes in” in John 5:24 (and a couple of others) must mean:
depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers
about falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.

But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

John Zain,

That is why this verse is for eternal security, It is not a salvation verse. It is the principle of salvation, and describes eternal security....the point of doctrine in the verse. John 5:24

1 John 5:11-12~~11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

It is the principle and the Fathers Plan in salvation that is described in John 5:24~~By believing ON the Son, you believe the plan of the Father, and thereby have salvation forever and ever.

"Eternal life" is not equated with eschatological salvation, for eternal life is Jesus Christ's abiding presence within us. HE is the way, the truth AND THE LIFE. As long as we abide in Him, we have a guarantee of eternal life. That's the promise.

So persevere. Until the end. For as long as you have Christ, you have eternal life.

1 John 5:12.

Regards

How could i not persevere? I have been born-again. I was chosen before the foundation of the world. I was predestined. I am a sheep and i hear the Good Shepherd's voice....baaa baaa.

 

[Grappler]

I have not researched the thought that everyone's name is initially in the Book of Life. I THINK (and I emphasize think here) that the Book contains nothing and ones name is added at conversion. I also think one's name can be removed acoording to Heb 10 and the verses I cited earlier, as far as name written initially, I must refrain from commenting without scriptural references to make a determination from.

Allow me to introduce you to some more scripture that will ease your mind and you won't have to worry about getting your name "blotted" out. Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." As you can read here it has all been planned out before you were even born. Here is some more for you Romans 8:28-30 "28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." See?? Nothing to worry about God is in control.

What I have not researched is if one's name is in the Book of Life from time immemorial, I am thoroughly convinced that OSAS is invalid.

Indeed, it is utterly amazing to me how many people have peeked at the Book of Life, convinced that they are in it - and THEN, they fall away and everyone presumes that the peek was really not a peek but wishful thinking. The whole idea is nuts. It offers no security.

At least I know I have been saved. Utterly and without doubt. The OSAS can't even know that, because they don't know if they have just been tricked into thinking they have, for 5 years from now, they might end up in adultery or some other grievious sin and fall away from the Lord - and all the while, finding "they never were saved". Oops...

The issue should not be over whether one is saved, for everyone baptized is saved. The issue is whether one REMAINS in Christ. For heaven's sake, why is this such a difficult thing to see in Scriptures???

Regards

"All that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." I just love that verse...don't you?

 

[reba]

John 5:24~~ is used to describe eternal security:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.â€

Our English renderings of such verses as John 5:24 may really be misleading!

The verb “pisteuo†is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuoâ€
implies an authentic, active, abiding belief in Jesus.

However, there are other instances when “pisteuo†is used
in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11 , etc.
Many who “believe†(pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!

IMO, “believes in†in John 5:24 (and a couple of others) must mean:
depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers
about falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) and overcome sin.

But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

Not sure what you are talking about...i don't remember posting that verse.

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.

I do not see an attempt to be totally misleading ie: there is no attempt to post in another members style...

This thread will be closed. There are way too many violation of the rules you all agreed to when you signed on. Rudeness to one another personal attacks etc.