Will this man burn in hell forever?

[guibox]

guibox,

You seem to dance around this question yourself?

What say you on the matter?

Are you sticking to the SDA guns of an instant barberque?

lol....

Ultimately, only God can be the judge. The OT saints didn't hear of Jesus either. They were saved through faith based on better promises. I believe God does judge us on the light we have when we don't know any better. Perhaps that is the way God has dealt with many throughout history.

 

[Vic C.]

No.

Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, . . . "

He perishes. No eternal life. Not raised at the resurrection. Not judged. No heaven. No Hell. Just as any beast of the field.

BTW - the fact that they had such an advanced civilisation so as to record the dude on a mountain top doesn't help :

Those who are not raised in the first resurrection, will be raised in the second.

Also, what about these verses?

Romans 2
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

Just wondering what you all believe these verses are telling us.

 

[stovebolts]

guibox,

3. What is God's purpose for suffering, if he is to be this loving God as you so claim

SB, any sort of punishing needs to have some sort of redemptive or reformative purpose otherwise it is needless suffering simply for the sake of suffering.

Do you believe God's justice demands it? If you really look at the 'propitiation for our sins' argument, Christ came to satisfy the ultimate requirements of breaking the law and sin: DEATH. So that we could move from DEATH TO LIFE.

This is as extreme as it came and only a Savior could do it.

Now we want to say that Christ really came down to save us from an eternal torment that HE Himself created for no other purpose but to punish us?

Now we want to say that we really moved from DEATH to ETERNAL LIFE IN HELL? So God went back on His original plan and judgement and went even FURTHER behind in morality by converting our death sentence to eternal torture?

Do you not see the illogistics and immorality of such reasoning?

Guibox,
As for your answer, please see Hebrews 2:18 as I asked about suffering, not punishment.

As far as the 'propitiation for our sins' argument, I'm not aware of that argument. However, I can say that Aaron was to propitiate with the sprinkling of blood upon the mercy seat once a year for himself and all of Isreal. Keep in mind that the tabernacle and all of it's contents were but a copy of those things in heaven.

But then you go on to further say that this was an extreem.. No, it was a requirment because sin is sin, regardless of how big, or how small.

In your next sentance, you use the word WE. You should really restate that because Christ came down to reconcille per the propitiation of his blood, not to punish (John 3:17) (1 John 2:2) Do you really know what propitiation means? I only ask because you use it in context of wrath, and not reconcelliation, to pay a debt that is owed.

When you understand and answer question 3, please answer questions 1 and 2.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Romans 2
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

This seems to point towards being judged in a fair manner...

"gentiles" could mean buddhists predating Christ and their "conscience" could be the Holy Spirit convicting them of right and wrong....

 

[mutzrein]

Romans 2
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

This seems to point towards being judged in a fair manner...

"gentiles" could mean buddhists predating Christ and their "conscience" could be the Holy Spirit convicting them of right and wrong....

I see this passage quite differently when read in the context of the surrounding verses and what it means to have the law written on their hearts.

Regards

 

[reznwerks]

no where

I don't think the bible promised everlasting life in hell anywhere.

 

[Soma-Sight]

He perishes. No eternal life. Not raised at the resurrection. Not judged. No heaven. No Hell. Just as any beast of the field.
[/quote

Thats pretty awesome....

I guess he was just created to suffer and die.....

Demiurge style.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Strewth mate! Are you true blue? What about the ditch that's between us?

Whoops ...it was ditch I meant and not puddle! In any event, how are the sheep? :P

Not Baaaaaaaad. How are the roos? And yes God is the final authority but you must have a view on it - from a biblical perspective

I think the roos are all but wiped out. I haven't seen one in quite a while.

By the way, my view on this issue is as honest as I can make it. I really have no idea what will happen to the likes of those who were raised in a different culture. While the scriptures may seem to be clearly 'black and white' to many Christians who believe that they have everything neatly figured out on all issues, I make allowances for gray areas that are known only by God. I believe that this is one of them.

I like your honesty. Alright then - do you think that there would be any difference if the same person were alive today and had never heard of Jesus?

Sorry for the delay in responding. I've had - and continue to have - modem problems. I'm only here today because the modem decided to work for the first time in several days. Ah well, it will be death to the modem in a few weeks and 'hello' to Broadband.

As for your above question ...the answer is yet again "I don't know." We (many of us) want to put God into a box and give Him human qualities. Very often those particular qualities we give to God are our own! If we desire that 'the godless' deserve to suffer eternal torment in hell then that's what God will do, no ifs or buts. If our view of 'justice' is no less than 'vindictiveness', then that's how we will view God. I believe that God alone has it all figured out and doesn't require any help from us.

Meanwhile like fishes out of water we flap and flounder around on issues such as this - some come across with a 'know-it-all' attitude - when in actuality we and the 'know-it-alls' know very little. We - they - just think we/they do.

Some points of interest can come out of debating topics such as this one but no one but God is ever the final authority. These kinds of topics should be labeled: 'The views represented here are not necessarily those of God'. Those who boast being 'Spirit-filled' might take exception to that, however!

 

[Soma-Sight]

Some points of interest can come out of debating topics such as this one but no one but God is ever the final authority. These kinds of topics should be labeled: 'The views represented here are not necessarily those of God'. Those who boast being 'Spirit-filled' might take exception to that, however!

Well said....

 

[mutzrein]

He perishes. No eternal life. Not raised at the resurrection. Not judged. No heaven. No Hell. Just as any beast of the field.
[/quote

Thats pretty awesome....

I guess he was just created to suffer and die.....

Demiurge style.

Ah - where did the suffering bit come from? I reckon he would have enjoyed life every bit as much as the next man. Certainly would have had much more peace than many who live in the civilised jungles I would say.

And what is the Demiurge reference about?

 

[mutzrein]

Sorry for the delay in responding. I've had - and continue to have - modem problems. I'm only here today because the modem decided to work for the first time in several days. Ah well, it will be death to the modem in a few weeks and 'hello' to Broadband.

As for your above question ...the answer is yet again "I don't know." We (many of us) want to put God into a box and give Him human qualities. Very often those particular qualities we give to God are our own! If we desire that 'the godless' deserve to suffer eternal torment in hell then that's what God will do, no ifs or buts. If our view of 'justice' is no less than 'vindictiveness', then that's how we will view God. I believe that God alone has it all figured out and doesn't require any help from us.

Meanwhile like fishes out of water we flap and flounder around on issues such as this - some come across with a 'know-it-all' attitude - when in actuality we and the 'know-it-alls' know very little. We - they - just think we/they do.

Some points of interest can come out of debating topics such as this one but no one but God is ever the final authority. These kinds of topics should be labeled: 'The views represented here are not necessarily those of God'. Those who boast being 'Spirit-filled' might take exception to that, however!

No problem mate - I've gone the broadband way myself but they charge like wounded bulls for it over here.

Your last paragraph was well said too.

A couple of things occur to me tho, if we take scripture (the bible) as the rule of thumb are we not able to say what we believe is the condition of man between the time of the Adam and Christ? How do you interpret it?

Second thing - regarding this 'spirit-filled' issue. Are you talking about people who believe that there are two experiences or one? Is there something that irks you about the experience itself or perhaps the people who claim to have had it? I'd certainly appreciate your views.

Cheers

 

[mutzrein]

Re: no where

I don't think the bible promised everlasting life in hell anywhere.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with it but isn't this what Christendom says in general? They say you either go to heaven or hell. In heaven you have eternal reward. In hell you have eternal punishment. Whether in heaven or hell, being conscious of your state of reward or punishment must indicate life. So in heaven it is eternal life with reward. In hell it is eternal life with suffering.

What's your view?

 

[TanNinety]

I accept Jesus the Son of God as my savior but when/if its time I will go to hell just like Job did. But don’t think I will be tormented as such being I am dead and not alive. When the Father brings me out of hell and quickens me in the spirit I will gladly go to heaven. But then I wont get to stay in heaven forever because God will make all things new and He will create a new earth and He will come down to new earth and live with us. So when I get to new earth I am planning on staying there forever

Now people say those who are not saved are completely separated from God and are thrown into the lake of fire.
Anything that exists relies on God for its existence. Even satan himself exists because God exists. Now when these "unholy rollers" are separated from God and thrown into the lake of fire on what "life juice" are they surviving on if they are completely separated from God? Certainly God will not be entertaining them replenishing their lives in the lake of fire, He said only those who believe will He replenish with life. So people who say unsaved are forever burning and separated from God need to show me this second "life source" other than God that they rely on, in keeping these unsaved alive for eternity.

Now consider Matthew 25:31-46 very carefully. There is something very peculiar about this passage “separating the sheep from the goatsâ€Â

Jesus says, For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

People say these sheep are the followers of Christ. If they are the followers of Christ then why did they not know that when they were “feeding the hungry; clothing the naked; quenching the thirsty; sheltering a stranger; visiting someone in the prison and so on†that they were not doing it unto Christ? Surely every believer in Christ understands that what one is doing to his neighbor is as doing it to Christ Himself. Certainly you and I wouldn’t be surprised and say “Lord, when did we help you out in anything†because we know what we do, we do it for Jesus. So why this particular flock of sheep is so surprised about when they have done these good deeds unto Christ???

Some thing to consider, are these the sheep that haven’t heard about Christ yet doing the things of the law through their conscience are a law unto themselves being without excuse in front of the judgment seat are judged righteous for their works? If so, do they deserve to be thrown into the hell that we rent from the pagans?

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Tan, interesting post. I too agree that the sheep in Matthew 25 are righteous ones found outside of Jesus' ekklesia. They are being judged based on how they treated God's Chosen Ones; Israel. Matthew 24 and 25 are for the most part, End Times events and I believe 25 is dealing with Jews and unsaved gentiles living "through" the Tribulation and Wrath.

Anyway, this is how I understand it.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Packrat]

Here's an interesting passage...

Acts 17:29-31

:bday:

 

[Soma-Sight]

Some thing to consider, are these the sheep that haven’t heard about Christ yet doing the things of the law through their conscience are a law unto themselves being without excuse in front of the judgment seat are judged righteous for their works? If so, do they deserve to be thrown into the hell that we rent from the pagans?

Vic and Tan,

Good posts....

That is how I see it as well....

Otherwise I cannot accept Christianity.

This was a major stumbling block for me for years. But Matt 25, and Romans seem to clear this up as vic pointed out earlier.....

 

[mutzrein]

I would like to add a bit of context to this. Jesus spoke much in parables and although this event (the sheep & the goats) in particular is not recorded as a parable, what immediately precedes it are two very powerful parables. I see the picture of the sheep and goats as yet another depiction of the many instances that Jesus spoke in parables of the return of the King or Master or Bridegroom (depending on the parable) - and the ‘judgement’ that would follow.

Now each of these three (the virgins, the talents, the sheep and the goats) by themselves tell a story which leaves me in no doubt as to whom Jesus is talking, but taking them in the context of the others they even more powerfully reiterate the point Jesus makes.

There are a number of parallels. A few of them are:
• There are two groups in each. Those who are rewarded and those who are punished. Those who are rewarded are rewarded for what they have done – what was required of them. Those who are punished are punished not specifically for what they have done, but believing themselves to have done enough they had fallen short.
• Each group had a relationship with the bridegroom, master and king as it pertains to the particular parable. The relationship of the two groups to each other is strikingly similar.
• The Virgins: All of them had been chosen to fulfil the same role - to meet the bridegroom. Each had the same provision or gift to start with - each had started with lamps that were burning.
• Talents: Each servant was entrusted with part of the master's property. Each was given talents to use.
• Sheep & Goats: Each were gathered in the same fold and would have been grazing on the same pasture. Each had been given food, drink and clothing and shelter.
• But the stark difference between the two groups is described vividly. The wise and the foolish. The faithful and the wicked. The blessed and the cursed.

Now these passages are sometimes given as one of premises for the belief that all of mankind is destined for either eternal reward in heaven or eternal punishment in hell.

I contend that these stories are not depictions of all of mankind but only those who have been called by the bridegroom, master and king and have received oil in their lamps, talents, and the provisions of life. They are pointers to the kingdom of heaven and as such are very severe warnings for those who consider themselves chosen and have partaken in Gods gift of eternal life (salvation).

Consider the self-righteous pharisee. “I thank God that I am not as one of these.â€Â
Isn't this what just about every faction of Christendom proclaims? Isn't this what we hear preached in our churches? And heaven help us - isn't this what we see on forums –occasionally of course. Self righteous pious man proclaiming his right standing before God! At the expense of those other unfortunates who have not.

Yes it is true, Christ has given us eternal life but there is much truth in the saying that we should work out our own salvation with fear and trembling – lest we are beguiled and fall into the same trap of the self-righteous pharisees.

More food for thought?

 

[Heidi]

He most certainly will go to hell....It's just like a person driving in a different state where he doesn't know the laws. He will still be punished if he breaks them, but his sentences will be lightter because he was ignorant of the laws.

:smt017

'His sentence will be lighter'? So he will get the relief of only suffering 1st degree burns for eternity instead of 3rd? BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm just waiting for the old 'Preaching to the spirits in prison' verse to rear it's misinterpreted head to explain the 'second chance for the ghosts in hell' philosophy.

Those are Christ's words, not mine. If you disagree with him, then talk to him about it. I always suspected that you didn't believe Jesus. Now you've proven it. ;-)

 

[Vic C.]

Fair enough Heidi. Can you tell us, in light of the posts above and the context in with you extracted that passage, who was it Jesus was speaking about?

Here is the passage again:

"The servant who knows his master's will but does not get ready and do what his master wants will be beaten with severe blows. But the servant who does not know his master's will and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."

Also, what leads you to believe this is a "damnation" passage?

 

[Heidi]

Fair enough Heidi. Can you tell us, in light of the posts above and the context in with you extracted that passage, who was it Jesus was speaking about?

Here is the passage again:

"The servant who knows his master's will but does not get ready and do what his master wants will be beaten with severe blows. But the servant who does not know his master's will and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."

Also, what leads you to believe this is a "damnation" passage?

Exactly what he said, "...the servant who does not know his master's will and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." That means anyone who has not heard the gospel which is why Jesus called us to preach to all nations. Jesus also said; "If I had not come and spoken to them they would not be guilty of their sins. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sins." This also refers to children because Paul tells us that our children will be holy only if we are in a marital union sanctioned by God. Otherwise, Paul says, they will be unclean.