Will this man burn in hell forever?

[Vic C.]

I dunno. Is truth a taboo topic on this forum?

Yes. In some cases it is! lol..... :-D

No guys, Truth is not taboo, but claiming (you) have the absolute Truth while disregarding others beliefs as rubbish is taboo. :-?
___________________________________________________


*discussion open*

Lou, is case you didn't figure it out or Ben or Soma haven't PM'd you yet to "sow" their seed, they are referring to Universal Reconcilation. It has been banned from debate here, not because it is or isn't a viable option, but because of the manner and attitudes is which it was debated... from all sides.

*discussion closed*

 

[guibox]

It has been banned from debate here, not because it is or isn't a viable option, but because of the manner and attitudes is which it was debated... from all sides.

I don't know Vic. I think some other mods would disagree with you. When it is posted as 'The False Doctrine of UR' in explaining why it is banned, I think it goes further than lack of manners in debating it.

Solo's recent attempts at trying to have annihilation banned in comparing it with UR shows that it is the fundamentalist, orthodox majority mentality that is running this forum. "Agree with the mainstream 'truth'. All else is 'false doctrine'."

Sounds like the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages to me.

 

[SputnikBoy]

There is another Christian Forum that I alluded to in another thread that will reprimand, even ban, anyone who may deviate from the evangelical or mainstream belief system of Christianity. I sure hope this forum isn't heading in a similar direction.

 

[BenJasher]

In a nutshell, it's the God of present-day Christianity that I find hard to come to grips with. This is the God who (gladly or otherwise) torments people for eternity. This is the God who punishes people for a sexual orientation that they never asked for. This is the God who favors us as long as we can recite the scriptures like programmed robots to condemn another. This is the God who demands that one be 'Spirit-filled' (whatever that may actually mean to some Christians ...it varies considerably) otherwise they are lost, etc. etc.

My problem is not so much God, BJ, but sanctimonious Christians who claim to represent God.

I had gathered that this was the "meat" of your disillusionment with modern day Christianity, and it is what I was aiming my comments at. To me, a very large majority of what makes up today's mainstream Christianity is little more than Dark Age superstitious paganism with a thin veneer of Jesus spread over it to hide the ugly underbelly. And the louder one gets in telling me I am wrong, the more they vindicate that statement. There is very little difference between the mindset of people like Heidi or Cj, and the mindset of those who burned people at the stake during the Dark and the Middle Ages because of a difference of belief.

Fox's Book of Martyrs lists the atrocious abominations perpetrated by those like Heidi and Cj (and you and me, if we aren't careful!) against those who were guilty of nothing more heinous that believing differently than what was the accepted norm at that time.

There is a different way, a more excellent way. And I think you are on the path to finding it. That is why I am praying that you do find it.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Sputnik Boy, Ben Jasher....

Excellent posts!

There is no "evil" in questioning the doctrine that is "supposedly" God inspired! In fact the Protestant evangelical Church was founded on "questioning"!

As you say, to just blindly recite "what they tell you" is nothing more than beng a robot that takes commands...

 

[BenJasher]

Well the key to the problem is we do not see things from our Father’s point of view. Many a times if we don’t see His point of view and read the OT it might seem like God is a heartless dictator which is absolutely contrary to what we learn in the NT.

Quite true. David found something in the God he served that caused him to compose nearly 150 psalms extoling his love for God. If only we could know Him that way! But it was also his relationship with Yahweh that made him courageous and bold in battle. It was said of him that he was like a she-bear robbed of her cubs on the battlefield. In one of his psalms, he attributes this characteristic of his to his relationship to the Father.

Blessed be God, my rock, who teaches my hands to (make) war.

I can easily see why someone would have problems reconciling this to the God of love we are told that He is. But I think that the answer to this is dispensational. What was He doing in the earth at that time as compared to what He is doing in the earth now? What about before then? And before that? What will He be doing in the future? What do we see when we look at the whole picture all at once?

 

[BenJasher]

SomaSight;

I agree. There is more benefit in honest disbelief than in what I privately call "Blind ignorance". What happened when Thomas stated that he would not believe lest he felt the hands of the Master? He wanted proof, and it was given to him. He was given the priviledge of touching His hands and sticking his hand into the spear wound in the Master's side.

Question everything you are told!

But many people have devolved to the point that they have a bumper sticker on their car that says:

Jesus said it. I believe. That settles it!

And that is fine as long as there are no nagging questions in the back of your mind. But if a person is operating in this kind of faith without first having pursued "proof" as Thomas did, they are in fact operating on "Blind ignorance".

And I say that in the nicest possible way! :wink:

The God we serve is not afraid of our questions, or ashamed of us for asking them. Nor is He unable to supply the answer to those questions if we seek Him for them.

 

[Solo]

SomaSight;

I agree. There is more benefit in honest disbelief than in what I privately call "Blind ignorance". What happened when Thomas stated that he would not believe lest he felt the hands of the Master? He wanted proof, and it was given to him. He was given the priviledge of touching His hands and sticking his hand into the spear wound in the Master's side.

Question everything you are told!

But many people have devolved to the point that they have a bumper sticker on their car that says:[quote:f2ab4]Jesus said it. I believe. That settles it!

And that is fine as long as there are no nagging questions in the back of your mind. But if a person is operating in this kind of faith without first having pursued "proof" as Thomas did, they are in fact operating on "Blind ignorance".

And I say that in the nicest possible way! :wink:

The God we serve is not afraid of our questions, or ashamed of us for asking them. Nor is He unable to supply the answer to those questions if we seek Him for them.[/quote:f2ab4]
You are mischaracterizing those that have come to believe that Jesus is God, by taking the one disciple that needed evidence before his faith could be ignited. The other ten disciples knew Jesus was God before Thomas' experience after the resurrection. I submit by the lack of any other disciple stating an unbelief as Thomas, that they all believed prior to Jesus' resurrection.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:29

Some do not need to see in the physical in order to see the spiritual. :wink:

 

[BenJasher]

You mistake my meaning. The point of my statement is that there is more benefit in honest doubt than in Blind Ignorance. The other ten apostles were not guilty of Blind Ignorance. I never said they were. And I mischaracterize nothing of the kind.

But as you follow Church history forward from the time of the Apostles, you will find that Blind Ignorance did take over, and led to the paganistic superstition that dominated the Church world during the Dark and Middle Ages.

We have supposedly come out of that darkness. But darkness still envelopes the minds of many who would purport themselves to be "enlightened."

Blind fools. Blind guides. Ignorant of the light that would save them. If we aren't careful, and God is not merciful, the Church of this day will repeat the atrocities of the Church of the past.

 

[Solo]

You mistake my meaning. The point of my statement is that there is more benefit in honest doubt than in Blind Ignorance. The other ten apostles were not guilty of Blind Ignorance. I never said they were. And I mischaracterize nothing of the kind.

But as you follow Church history forward from the time of the Apostles, you will find that Blind Ignorance did take over, and led to the paganistic superstition that dominated the Church world during the Dark and Middle Ages.

We have supposedly come out of that darkness. But darkness still envelopes the minds of many who would purport themselves to be "enlightened."

Blind fools. Blind guides. Ignorant of the light that would save them. If we aren't careful, and God is not merciful, the Church of this day will repeat the atrocities of the Church of the past.

Thanks for the clarification. Keep in mind that it is God that draws men to his Son Jesus Christ, and it is not their great ability to surmise right from wrong on their own. With the Holy Spirit, none would come to God through Jesus Christ. As the paganistic ritualistic practices of some impersonated Christianity in the dark ages, believers were guided then as they are today; by the Holy Spirit. Many were persecuted throughout the dark ages for their testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[TanNinety]

Ben

Quite true. David found something in the God he served that caused him to compose nearly 150 psalms extoling his love for God. If only we could know Him that way! But it was also his relationship with Yahweh that made him courageous and bold in battle.

One thing that I like about david:
God said:
Genesis 22:2 "Take your son, your only son-yes, Isaac, whom you love so much-and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."
David said to his servants:
Genesis 22:5 "Stay here with the donkey," Abraham told the young men. "The boy and I will travel a little farther. We will worship there, and then we will come right back."

Clearly David heard that God wanted him to sacrifice Isaac his son, yet he told his servants that they were going to come back after worshipping God. Even though in his mind he had a picture of God wanting his son as a sacrifice he still knew that he will return with his son being alive and kicking. Now that’s faith in the character of God.

I can easily see why someone would have problems reconciling this to the God of love we are told that He is. But I think that the answer to this is dispensational. What was He doing in the earth at that time as compared to what He is doing in the earth now? What about before then? And before that? What will He be doing in the future? What do we see when we look at the whole picture all at once?

I agree, I believe in a dynamic God. Not that He changes but His way of administration changes.