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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Heidi said:mutzrein said:
Luke 12:47-48.
Thanks again Heidi
I just wanted to check the context of what was being said. I also noted your comments to Vic in an earlier post and was just wondering how you see this in light of Jesus statement that to see or enter the kingom of God you must be born again. Are you saying that those who are ignorant of Jesus or the need to be born again can still gain reward in heaven?
Regards
mutzrein said:Heidi said:mutzrein said:
Luke 12:47-48.
Thanks again Heidi
I just wanted to check the context of what was being said. I also noted your comments to Vic in an earlier post and was just wondering how you see this in light of Jesus statement that to see or enter the kingom of God you must be born again. Are you saying that those who are ignorant of Jesus or the need to be born again can still gain reward in heaven?
Regards
No. Again, Jesus said in John 3 that only those born again of the Holy Spirit can go to heaven. But those who are ignorant of Jesu's words will only be beaten with few blows whereas those who have heard his words and deliberatley rejected them will be beaten with severe blows because, as Jesus says, they are now without excuse because they have heard the truth.
Vic C.
Member
Thanks Heidi. I guess we understand this "parable" differently. I don't believe He is addressing this to just anybody. I believe He had a specific "group" of people in mind. See my post along with the Mutzrien and TanNinety's posts.
We believers, overcomers, etc. are told to expect rewards, not punishments.
We believers, overcomers, etc. are told to expect rewards, not punishments.
S
Simple Mind
Guest
Hi,
Regarding Matt 25:31-46, doesn't vv. 31-32 clearly indicate the context without having to look for indirect hints about context?
v. 31 clearly says Jesus was talking about what will happen when He comes back to "sit on His throne in heavenly glory". We know from the description He will perform the task of judgment - separating people into two groups. v. 32 clearly says "All the nations will be gathered".
So the key is in the term "all the nations" and what exactly it refers to. It is true that the term was used mostly to refer to non-Jewish states. But there are times it is used to mean all nations including Israel.
In Matt 28:19 Jesus commanded us to make disciples of all nations, exact same Greek term used in 25:32. There is no question that Jesus' use of that term included Israel in that context, for He explained that the task started in Jerusalem in Acts 1:8. Luke 24:47 also uses the exact same term and immediately adds "beginning at Jerusalem".
Looking back at Matt 25, the internal evidence of the passage says it includes people of Israel and those who claim to be believers - they outwardly acknowledge Jesus or God as "Lord" and even does works in His name. This term is translated "gentiles" in many places, but in all the English translations I looked at it is translated "all the nations" in this passage.
This leaves little doubt that "all the nations" refers to all the people of the earth. It applies to all, and I do agree with someone who earlier hinted that most importantly it applies to each of us.
Thems the facts I see - draw your own conclusions ...
Much blessings,
Lou
Regarding Matt 25:31-46, doesn't vv. 31-32 clearly indicate the context without having to look for indirect hints about context?
v. 31 clearly says Jesus was talking about what will happen when He comes back to "sit on His throne in heavenly glory". We know from the description He will perform the task of judgment - separating people into two groups. v. 32 clearly says "All the nations will be gathered".
So the key is in the term "all the nations" and what exactly it refers to. It is true that the term was used mostly to refer to non-Jewish states. But there are times it is used to mean all nations including Israel.
In Matt 28:19 Jesus commanded us to make disciples of all nations, exact same Greek term used in 25:32. There is no question that Jesus' use of that term included Israel in that context, for He explained that the task started in Jerusalem in Acts 1:8. Luke 24:47 also uses the exact same term and immediately adds "beginning at Jerusalem".
Looking back at Matt 25, the internal evidence of the passage says it includes people of Israel and those who claim to be believers - they outwardly acknowledge Jesus or God as "Lord" and even does works in His name. This term is translated "gentiles" in many places, but in all the English translations I looked at it is translated "all the nations" in this passage.
This leaves little doubt that "all the nations" refers to all the people of the earth. It applies to all, and I do agree with someone who earlier hinted that most importantly it applies to each of us.
Thems the facts I see - draw your own conclusions ...
Much blessings,
Lou
S
Simple Mind
Guest
Vic said:
I know. As I said in my post, that specific Greek term ("the nations") was often used to specifically refer to the Gentiles. But add "all" in front of it and look at the context of that passage plus how else Jesus used "all the nations", and there is no doubt it mean all the people on earth. We need to understand what it meant as spoken by Jesus in Matt 25:32, not what it might have meant elsewhere.
I thought I made that very clear in my post but I guess my communication skills leaves a lot to be desired.
Blessings,
Lou
S
Simple Mind
Guest
No probs! I bet you my eyesight isn't any better ... so when I do it I hope you'll likewise forgive. :-DVic said:
Much blessings,
Lou
B
BenJasher
Guest
The questioin was:
"As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"
Short answer: No.
Need I say more?
My response is: (well...not actually mine)
"As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"
Short answer: No.
Need I say more?
S
Simple Mind
Guest
BenJasher said:
Yes, for this simple mind, please? I need an explanation ... :-D
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
I think you are reffering to a taboo topic?
B
BenJasher
Guest
I dunno. Is truth a taboo topic on this forum?
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
Yes. In some cases it is! lol..... :-D
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
My probable final word on this issue is this: if Christians feel in their hearts that the man pictured 'deserves' to burn in hell for eternity, then this is what they believe that God will do with the man. The cruel and condemning streak that lies within the hearts of many Christians is rather scary. This is why I've been doing some serious thinking about present-day Christianity in recent times. The way I see it ...any god who would give 'his treasures' the option of 'either love me or burn in hell for eternity' isn't worthy of 'love'.
B
BenJasher
Guest
Sputnikboy,
I will pray for you. You are in perilous territory, unless I misunderstand what you are saying.
For one thing it is a good thing to take a hard look at things the way you have and are doing. But it can be dangerous in the fact that a person can be disillusioned by all the trajedy, hypocrisy, and outright mishandling of the Word of God by those who represent the Word of God. A person can decide to just plainly walk away from it all, rather than deal with sifting your way through all the junk.
However, there is a great blessing to be had if the Holy Spirit is allowed to take what you see and use it as an impetus in your life to seek something better from Him. You don't have to emulate the "junk and trash" that many are blindly labeling as Christianity. There is another walk for those who want it.
I will pray for you. You are in perilous territory, unless I misunderstand what you are saying.
For one thing it is a good thing to take a hard look at things the way you have and are doing. But it can be dangerous in the fact that a person can be disillusioned by all the trajedy, hypocrisy, and outright mishandling of the Word of God by those who represent the Word of God. A person can decide to just plainly walk away from it all, rather than deal with sifting your way through all the junk.
However, there is a great blessing to be had if the Holy Spirit is allowed to take what you see and use it as an impetus in your life to seek something better from Him. You don't have to emulate the "junk and trash" that many are blindly labeling as Christianity. There is another walk for those who want it.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Thanks BJ, your prayers for me will certainly not go astray. Yes, I DO have problems with God with or without any help from Christians with whom I may disagree. BUT ---whereas I do acknowledge having problems with God in many areas, I also acknowledge my own ineptness in regard to fathoming out the mind of God. I will NEVER understand the God of the Old Testament (specifically) in this lifetime. Having said that, I DO acknowledge God as the Creator of all, even though I have extreme difficulty in actually 'loving' this Creator. If I'm in perilous territory merely for being honest then should I be DIShonest to play it safe? I think too many Christians are already doing that.
So, yes, BJ ...I think you are 'partially' misunderstanding me anyway. I DO have a problem with the 'bully God' of the OT. Hey, God ordered the destruction of every man, woman and child, He destroyed the world, He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, He turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt merely for looking back, He 'zapped' someone for merely trying to save the Ark of the Covenant from toppling over, etc. etc. Love, worship and obey me only ...or else!
But, as mentioned, I put these things down to my inability to fully understand God's reasoning. I can live with these glaring inconsistencies behind that of a 'loving God' for now. I have to otherwise I drive myself crazy.
In a nutshell, it's the God of present-day Christianity that I find hard to come to grips with. This is the God who (gladly or otherwise) torments people for eternity. This is the God who punishes people for a sexual orientation that they never asked for. This is the God who favors us as long as we can recite the scriptures like programmed robots to condemn another. This is the God who demands that one be 'Spirit-filled' (whatever that may actually mean to some Christians ...it varies considerably) otherwise they are lost, etc. etc.
My problem is not so much God, BJ, but sanctimonious Christians who claim to represent God.
So, yes, BJ ...I think you are 'partially' misunderstanding me anyway. I DO have a problem with the 'bully God' of the OT. Hey, God ordered the destruction of every man, woman and child, He destroyed the world, He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, He turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt merely for looking back, He 'zapped' someone for merely trying to save the Ark of the Covenant from toppling over, etc. etc. Love, worship and obey me only ...or else!
But, as mentioned, I put these things down to my inability to fully understand God's reasoning. I can live with these glaring inconsistencies behind that of a 'loving God' for now. I have to otherwise I drive myself crazy.
In a nutshell, it's the God of present-day Christianity that I find hard to come to grips with. This is the God who (gladly or otherwise) torments people for eternity. This is the God who punishes people for a sexual orientation that they never asked for. This is the God who favors us as long as we can recite the scriptures like programmed robots to condemn another. This is the God who demands that one be 'Spirit-filled' (whatever that may actually mean to some Christians ...it varies considerably) otherwise they are lost, etc. etc.
My problem is not so much God, BJ, but sanctimonious Christians who claim to represent God.
If I'm in perilous territory merely for being honest then should I be DIShonest to play it safe? I think too many Christians are already doing that.
Honesty, in my opinion, is virtue. Being dishonest will not be playing it safe. God knows the heart of every person and judges the heart of every person. Our words simply come from the heart and from the mind and reflect them both. If you are speaking your mind because you have concerns, then this is good. You will never temper your sword without putting it into the fire. The best we can do is pray for an answer, pray for faith, look at things objectively, keep truth as a priority, and search for God and study his ways each and every day.
He destroyed the world
Genesis 6:1, 2, 4, 5, 11, 12
The people during this time weren't your innocent little children, trying to follow God.
He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah
Genesis 19:4, 5, 9
Here's a friendly welcome to God's messengers by the neighbors of Sodom.
He turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt merely for looking back
Seems like I remember one of God's messengers or God himself telling those who fled to not look back. If so, then to look back would be to disobey and suffer the consequences of that disobedience.
He 'zapped' someone for merely trying to save the Ark of the Covenant from toppling over
2 Samuel 6:6-7
The poles were there for a reason. This was a very sacred object that the High Priest (I think) couldn't even touch but could see once in a while. The penalty to touch it was death as I remember. This was known amongst the people of God; if it was not, then it should have been. I don't know if it would have been any better to let it fall to the ground, but I would have said that the man would not have died if he had let if fall. God might have still been angry, but that's what happens when you don't take the proper preparations to secure the Ark and make sure that it does not fall off. Having the Ark captured and placed with idols was a slap in the face to God. Having it touched, I would say, was certainly a slap in the face to God. It was, I think, Israel's disobedience that caused it to be captured in the first place. Sin breeds more sin and destruction.
This is the God who (gladly or otherwise) torments people for eternity.
What happened to the passage of scripture which says that God is willing that none should perish but all come to repentance? That, I think, rules out gladly. There have also been some good posts on the concept of Hell on this forum. Should check them out.
This is the God who punishes people for a sexual orientation that they never asked for.
Leviticus 18:22
That appears to me to command that sodomy - a very despicable act - should not be committed. I don't remember Scripture saying anything about homosexuality in itself, but then again homosexuality breeds sodomy - it is the end result of its fulfillment just as destruction is the end result of sin. Besides, those who are homosexual innately from birth, I believe, could be (and possibly should be) taught to find the opposite sex attractive instead. Call it reprogramming or whatever you will, but its end result would be better for society so long as those who are homosexual submitted to the reprogramming.
Honesty, in my opinion, is virtue. Being dishonest will not be playing it safe. God knows the heart of every person and judges the heart of every person. Our words simply come from the heart and from the mind and reflect them both. If you are speaking your mind because you have concerns, then this is good. You will never temper your sword without putting it into the fire. The best we can do is pray for an answer, pray for faith, look at things objectively, keep truth as a priority, and search for God and study his ways each and every day.
He destroyed the world
Genesis 6:1, 2, 4, 5, 11, 12
The people during this time weren't your innocent little children, trying to follow God.
He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah
Genesis 19:4, 5, 9
Here's a friendly welcome to God's messengers by the neighbors of Sodom.
He turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt merely for looking back
Seems like I remember one of God's messengers or God himself telling those who fled to not look back. If so, then to look back would be to disobey and suffer the consequences of that disobedience.
He 'zapped' someone for merely trying to save the Ark of the Covenant from toppling over
2 Samuel 6:6-7
The poles were there for a reason. This was a very sacred object that the High Priest (I think) couldn't even touch but could see once in a while. The penalty to touch it was death as I remember. This was known amongst the people of God; if it was not, then it should have been. I don't know if it would have been any better to let it fall to the ground, but I would have said that the man would not have died if he had let if fall. God might have still been angry, but that's what happens when you don't take the proper preparations to secure the Ark and make sure that it does not fall off. Having the Ark captured and placed with idols was a slap in the face to God. Having it touched, I would say, was certainly a slap in the face to God. It was, I think, Israel's disobedience that caused it to be captured in the first place. Sin breeds more sin and destruction.
This is the God who (gladly or otherwise) torments people for eternity.
What happened to the passage of scripture which says that God is willing that none should perish but all come to repentance? That, I think, rules out gladly. There have also been some good posts on the concept of Hell on this forum. Should check them out.
This is the God who punishes people for a sexual orientation that they never asked for.
Leviticus 18:22
That appears to me to command that sodomy - a very despicable act - should not be committed. I don't remember Scripture saying anything about homosexuality in itself, but then again homosexuality breeds sodomy - it is the end result of its fulfillment just as destruction is the end result of sin. Besides, those who are homosexual innately from birth, I believe, could be (and possibly should be) taught to find the opposite sex attractive instead. Call it reprogramming or whatever you will, but its end result would be better for society so long as those who are homosexual submitted to the reprogramming.
SputnikBoy
In the NT we have a better knowledge of satan and his evil plans. We are also equipped and strengthened to go against him by the power of the holy spirit. We war not against flesh and blood but against the lords of the world of darkness. (But many a times most of us Christians fail to see and get caught up in the war of flesh). Now in the OT not everyone had the holy spirit given to them. Now try telling them that they had to fight against a powerful spirit being satan who they cannot see or perceive in their flesh who is so evil that he holds the keys to death in his hands which takes life away that God gives to us. “oh by the way guys you don’t have the holy spirit so you cant fight against satan but you can try to fight him in the fleshâ€Â. That would really rain their parade. So God had to take the rap for the evil that was going around in the OT. In the NT we are well aware who is responsible for the evil. But in the OT they knew God and all things came from God, so they also ascribed all the evil to God Himself. Job is a good example of this. So God had to wait till the NT covenant to open our eyes to this very sinister satan and his ways after Jesus had defeated him and equipped us with the holy spirit to withstand him.
Many Christians even after the OT still stick to this “bully God†concept like you said. But from Gods point of view it was better for the OT people not to know about satan that much without being given the holy spirit. So they portrayed God as they saw Him revealed. But only Jesus paints the exact picture of what God is really like. So if you want to get a picture of God we have to seek what Jesus said about Him and not all of what the OT has to say about Him. I am not saying OT is useless but to get the right picture you have to look at the NT.
About someone being zapped for trying to save the ark of covenant. Would you call “God smote someone because they jumped off of a cliff and they died?†The death is the cause of the jumping off of a cliff. Everyone in the OT knew what being in the presence of God meant. They had to tie a rope to the priests leg when he entered the tabernacle just so if he didn’t survive they could drag him out of Gods presence. So touching the ark of covenant was like jumping off a cliff. Not that God killed them but death just came as a result of it. This might not be the brightest explanation of it, but hope you see my point.
Their were many other battles where God ordered the captive children to be taken care of and the virgins to be taken as wives. It wasn’t one battle plans fits all. He dealt with every battle in a different way.
The following would help you understand these scenarios.
Tartarus was like a prison what we would call hell but here were some of the fallen angels kept “captive in prison†Why were they put in prison? ..Gen 6:4 because they wanted to get into the blood line of humans which would make the coming of Jesus in the future impossible. Most translations read that 1 Peter 3:19 that Jesus preached to these spirits in prison. But He actually kerussoed ..meaning declaring “something really importantâ€Â. Like if you watch movies and the king is going to make a special appearance then the trumpets blast off and everyone gets quite. That’s what happened. Jesus went and declared the victory of important event that took place ..He declared the defeat of these spirits(fallen angels who were trying to breed with humans and hence were put in prison./tartarus) the victory of Gospel. Now when you understand the plans of these fallen angels you will realize why God had to be so harsh and straight to the point in the OT because the old covenant people did not have the holy spirit to understand these things. He went with straight instructions like “go destroy, leave nothing aliveâ€Â.
God reveals Himself through Jesus Christ to us. Don’t get stuck on OT to understand Him. He had to do things the OT way because He was dealing with satan who was very worse. Yeah satan was worse in the OT than the NT. It said before the flood “every other thought of man was wicked†, not just random thoughts and not just a few men. To me satan is not half as bad now as he was in the days of noah. Remember when Jesus said the end shall be “like the days of naoh�? Meaning satan is going to be bad like the way he used to be bad in the OT. If you think we have it bad ..wait till the “history of the days of noah†repeats itself.
Hopefully I haven’t jumped on too many issues at once and hopefully might have given you a place where you can start understanding the God of NT and also reconcile with the God of OT.
God bless.
Well the key to the problem is we do not see things from our Father’s point of view. Many a times if we don’t see His point of view and read the OT it might seem like God is a heartless dictator which is absolutely contrary to what we learn in the NT.
In the NT we have a better knowledge of satan and his evil plans. We are also equipped and strengthened to go against him by the power of the holy spirit. We war not against flesh and blood but against the lords of the world of darkness. (But many a times most of us Christians fail to see and get caught up in the war of flesh). Now in the OT not everyone had the holy spirit given to them. Now try telling them that they had to fight against a powerful spirit being satan who they cannot see or perceive in their flesh who is so evil that he holds the keys to death in his hands which takes life away that God gives to us. “oh by the way guys you don’t have the holy spirit so you cant fight against satan but you can try to fight him in the fleshâ€Â. That would really rain their parade. So God had to take the rap for the evil that was going around in the OT. In the NT we are well aware who is responsible for the evil. But in the OT they knew God and all things came from God, so they also ascribed all the evil to God Himself. Job is a good example of this. So God had to wait till the NT covenant to open our eyes to this very sinister satan and his ways after Jesus had defeated him and equipped us with the holy spirit to withstand him.
Many Christians even after the OT still stick to this “bully God†concept like you said. But from Gods point of view it was better for the OT people not to know about satan that much without being given the holy spirit. So they portrayed God as they saw Him revealed. But only Jesus paints the exact picture of what God is really like. So if you want to get a picture of God we have to seek what Jesus said about Him and not all of what the OT has to say about Him. I am not saying OT is useless but to get the right picture you have to look at the NT.
Not every time Israel went to war did they kill every man woman and child. To my knowledge there were only specific battles when this was ordered. To understand this we need to understand that the battle was not just against humans. These nations are what I call the remnants of the nephelim the mixed breed of fallen angels and humans which still remained after the flood of noah. They were not just humans but genetically screwed up evil half breeds of fallen angels and humans Genesis 6:4. If they were not taken care of then they would have been a problem in the future that’s all. There was no “if we show them mercy they will turn and change their waysâ€Â. Just like satan they were evil and nothing could change that ..yup not even the love of God.
About someone being zapped for trying to save the ark of covenant. Would you call “God smote someone because they jumped off of a cliff and they died?†The death is the cause of the jumping off of a cliff. Everyone in the OT knew what being in the presence of God meant. They had to tie a rope to the priests leg when he entered the tabernacle just so if he didn’t survive they could drag him out of Gods presence. So touching the ark of covenant was like jumping off a cliff. Not that God killed them but death just came as a result of it. This might not be the brightest explanation of it, but hope you see my point.
Their were many other battles where God ordered the captive children to be taken care of and the virgins to be taken as wives. It wasn’t one battle plans fits all. He dealt with every battle in a different way.
The following would help you understand these scenarios.
You have to understand tatarus and and kerussoed to understand the above scriptures.
Tartarus was like a prison what we would call hell but here were some of the fallen angels kept “captive in prison†Why were they put in prison? ..Gen 6:4 because they wanted to get into the blood line of humans which would make the coming of Jesus in the future impossible. Most translations read that 1 Peter 3:19 that Jesus preached to these spirits in prison. But He actually kerussoed ..meaning declaring “something really importantâ€Â. Like if you watch movies and the king is going to make a special appearance then the trumpets blast off and everyone gets quite. That’s what happened. Jesus went and declared the victory of important event that took place ..He declared the defeat of these spirits(fallen angels who were trying to breed with humans and hence were put in prison./tartarus) the victory of Gospel. Now when you understand the plans of these fallen angels you will realize why God had to be so harsh and straight to the point in the OT because the old covenant people did not have the holy spirit to understand these things. He went with straight instructions like “go destroy, leave nothing aliveâ€Â.
God reveals Himself through Jesus Christ to us. Don’t get stuck on OT to understand Him. He had to do things the OT way because He was dealing with satan who was very worse. Yeah satan was worse in the OT than the NT. It said before the flood “every other thought of man was wicked†, not just random thoughts and not just a few men. To me satan is not half as bad now as he was in the days of noah. Remember when Jesus said the end shall be “like the days of naoh�? Meaning satan is going to be bad like the way he used to be bad in the OT. If you think we have it bad ..wait till the “history of the days of noah†repeats itself.
Hopefully I haven’t jumped on too many issues at once and hopefully might have given you a place where you can start understanding the God of NT and also reconcile with the God of OT.
God bless.