Will those who come to Jesus, exclusively to be saved, lose their salvation on the last day?

[Rajesh Sahu]

As I dig deeper into the words of Christ, His uttered words and recorded for us in the Bible, I see a different picture emerging than what I was taught in my Church---- where salvation seemed to grab the center-stage in the teaching and preaching of the gospel. The teachers there often used these phrases like " Come to Jesus if you wish to be saved" " I am secure in my salvation" " I was saved the day I believed in Christ" " You must love Christ because He saved you " etc etc.

If you notice friends, most of these comforting words of salvation are in the past tense ( meaning you are ALREADY saved when you believed in Jesus).
But as I studied the Word more n more --- cover to cover, I started realizing that Jesus, the savior and author of human salvation, was NOT teaching that.

From the words of our lord, it appears He does not approve of those who come to Him (only for)salvation(He wants only those who are willing to do the Will of God versus their own will ( Matthew 7:21 mark 3:35). In fact, he warns such people they will lose their salvation!

Let's take a gander at the words of Christ on salvation, and hopefully heed the warning/ caveats of Christ about those who come to Him exclusively to seek salvation--- without willing to do Will of God or willing to lay down their lives if needed for Jesus Christ :

John 12: 5
Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.
Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.

So why did you think we can still be saved if we come to Jesus seeking salvation?

My former church kept hammering on Salvation, Salvation, and salvation – seldom teaching the congregation to learn to do the will of God ( which was practicing loving-compassion to ALL ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, 1 John4:8)

They wanted us, believers, to be “perfectly secure in our salvation".
We the Church were taught salvation as main teaching point of the Word whereas it should have been “DO the will OF GOD if you wish to be saved” – And that Will was : Love God and love all ( which many of us don’t do—simply because were never taught that to be done to be saved ). Many of us break the rules of Father God thinking we are yet saved (because we believe!) . many of us do not fear God or keep His commandments – which is the core message of Bible ( Ecclesiastes 12:12)

But, In the vision of future--- Jesus provided for us in Matthew 25:31-46, in the vision of the GOATS and SHEEP ---when Jesus is sitting on His judgment seat and we are standing in front of Him, awaiting His verdict for us, the vision of the GOATS and SHEEP---- it’s NOT a parable, but a glimpse of a future event waiting to happen. However on that day – day which will surely come in our future —many who merely believed BUT did not practice loving-kindness were not saved. Although from Goats account it appears they believed, but because they didn’t practice loving- compassion (as the sheep did) the Goats ended up being condemned on the last day. But the Sheep who not only believed but practiced Loving-compassion were take home by Jesus and given eternal life.
This begs the vital question: Should we teach others (and ourselves ) to come to Christ ( exclusively) for salvation when Jesus repeatedly warned in the above-cited verses—spread over all four gospels, so we are without excuse--- that “all those wish to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it?

To me its abundantly clear that the Messiah is saying “ Don’t come to me if you only wish to be saved, but come to me if you’re willing to obey my commands and implement what I teach--- even if it means you have to lay down your life for me and for the sake of spreading/ sharing the gospel”

As He laid down his life for us, Jesus is asking in an unequivocal and unmistakable manner that we be prepared to do the same--- die for Him (if needed) if we wish to follow Him. Jesus repeats the same message in “The Cost of Being a Disciple” account: Leaving ALL to Follow Christ, in the Gospel of Luke passage Luke 14:25–33

I would also like to quote Jesus on other writers in Bible --- none is greater than Him and that’s why I strongly believe Jesus’ words trump any other writer in NT. Jesus says , (and notice He says Truly, Truly ) in John 13:16, NASB: "'Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him."

Jesus says the same thing in different words about Himself in Matthew 12:42 “One greater than Solomon is here”

And Hebrews 3:3 reveals “Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.”

So it’s crystal clear to me , one cannot be saved if they come seeking exclusively to be saved , BUT can only be saved if they are willing to turn from sin and DO the Will of God as Jesus warned/ cautioned in Matthew 7:21 , Mark 3:35 and John and Peter share the same thought:

1 Peter 4:2 : “Consequently, he does not live out his remaining time on earth for human passions, but for the will of God.

1 John 2:17 : “The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever.”

So I repeat the question(s) :

• Will those who come(or came) to Jesus exclusively for being saved, and not to do the Will of God ( which may include their willingness to lay down their lives down for Christ and the gospel) be condemned on the last day?
• Is it prudent to assure those who come to Christ by saying : “You are saved already since you have believed”

Submitted in love and respect ?.......Raj

 

[Quantrill]

Coming to Christ for salvation is doing the will of God.

And those that come to Christ to be saved, will be saved and not condemned. (John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Quantrill

 

[LuciusClay]

I think youre correct.

Though some of the verses you referenced were a bit out of context with the topic youre on target overall.

Anyone can seek salvation and Christ readily grants that. However,it is made abundantly clear throughout the bible via instruction and a variety of warnings not to fall back into our old ways and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Basically,yes we are given the salvation but we are expected to genuinely repent and do the best we can in general.

Some would argue that this is a works-based viewpoint and that works cannot get you to heaven. It is true that our works cannot ever earn us our way in. But we are expected to be doers of Gods word to maintain our salvation status. Look at Pauls writing to some of the early churches who went astray, warning of their candle being snuffed out. Again,we cannot earn our way in on our own merit,but we are expected to be obedient and to help others along the way as we can.

Bear in mind much of what we see today are false conversions. People who want the warm and fuzzies but are never intending to undergo the complete life change and attitude rearrangement that comes with being born again. Those wont pan out in the end.

 

[JLB]

As I dig deeper into the words of Christ, His uttered words and recorded for us in the Bible, I see a different picture emerging than what I was taught in my Church---- where salvation seemed to grab the center-stage in the teaching and preaching of the gospel. The teachers there often used these phrases like " Come to Jesus if you wish to be saved" " I am secure in my salvation" " I was saved the day I believed in Christ" " You must love Christ because He saved you " etc etc.

If you notice friends, most of these comforting words of salvation are in the past tense ( meaning you are ALREADY saved when you believed in Jesus).
But as I studied the Word more n more --- cover to cover, I started realizing that Jesus, the savior and author of human salvation, was NOT teaching that.

From the words of our lord, it appears He does not approve of those who come to Him (only for)salvation(He wants only those who are willing to do the Will of God versus their own will ( Matthew 7:21 mark 3:35). In fact, he warns such people they will lose their salvation!

Let's take a gander at the words of Christ on salvation, and hopefully heed the warning/ caveats of Christ about those who come to Him exclusively to seek salvation--- without willing to do Will of God or willing to lay down their lives if needed for Jesus Christ :

John 12: 5
Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.
Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.

So why did you think we can still be saved if we come to Jesus seeking salvation?

My former church kept hammering on Salvation, Salvation, and salvation – seldom teaching the congregation to learn to do the will of God ( which was practicing loving-compassion to ALL ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, 1 John4:8)

They wanted us, believers, to be “perfectly secure in our salvation".
We the Church were taught salvation as main teaching point of the Word whereas it should have been “DO the will OF GOD if you wish to be saved” – And that Will was : Love God and love all ( which many of us don’t do—simply because were never taught that to be done to be saved ). Many of us break the rules of Father God thinking we are yet saved (because we believe!) . many of us do not fear God or keep His commandments – which is the core message of Bible ( Ecclesiastes 12:12)

So I repeat the question(s) :

• Will those who come(or came) to Jesus exclusively for being saved, and not to do the Will of God ( which may include their willingness to lay down their lives down for Christ and the gospel) be condemned on the last day?
• Is it prudent to assure those who come to Christ by saying : “You are saved already since you have believed”

Submitted in love and respect ?.......Raj

Thanks for your post Raj.

Good stuff.

Salvation must be viewed through the ”eyes of understanding”...

What is it that we “collectively” must understand as the Church, the body of Christ, in order to be “of the same mind” and “speak the same thing” so that their will be no division among us. So that we may teach the same thing in which there will be a unity of understanding among the household of faith.


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 1 Corinthians 3:1-7


Paul and Apollos as well as Peter, John, James and the writers of the New Testament all taught the doctrine of Christ, which is called “The Truth”.

Jesus Christ is the Truth. Everything that proceeds out of His mouth is the Truth. His doctrine, His commandments, His Gospel.

• I fed you with milk and not with solid food;

The truth however, can be easy to swallow like milk, which is for those who are young in the Lord and are growing. The truth is also made up of meat, which is more coarse and requires more effort to “chew on” in order to swallow, nevertheless both are from the same Lord and both are the Truth.


Understanding this requires balance; a balance of understanding.


Solomon said it this way —


It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them. Ecclesiastes 7:18

• It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other

We must be aware that, both milk and meat come from the same Lord, and is the Truth, whether it came from Jesus through Matthew or John, Luke or Paul.


That being said let’s examine what Jesus taught.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said that the very thing that stopped these by the wayside who heard the word, from being saved, was they didn’t believe.


According to Jesus, Believe = Saved


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Now understanding what salvation means, what believe means, and how the Bible defines eternal life, will only help us to increase in our understanding.


If we misunderstand the definition of a biblical word, we could therefore misunderstand the teaching.


Understanding is the key to being fruitful. Matthew 13:23


For us to say that because milk doesn’t look like meat, or taste like meat, it isn’t the truth is not a balanced view.


If we say a coin must only have a heads for it to be authentic then we are missing half the truth.


Likewise, it we say these scriptures over here say this, and therefore your scriptures are not valid, we are not walking in the truth.


Let’s take the time to reconcile and understand what all the scriptures say, about salvation, making sure we understand what the words of scripture mean, so we can see the fullness of the truth concerning the doctrine we are discussing.


“I“ see in part, but “we“ have the mind of Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There is regeneration, which is being born again, or what we called saved by faith, then there is the Day we will receive the salvation of our souls, which is the end result of faith.

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:9


IOW, there is initial salvation, being born again, whereby we are baptized into Christ, then there is receiving the salvation of our soul on the Day of Judgement.


By grasping these two different experiences and understanding one is at the beginning of our faith when we first believe, and the other is at the end of of faith when we are judged according to how we lived; according to our deeds, we can discuss salvation in harmony with each other without creating division.


Example:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

This is true, but refers to when we are first born again, in which we come to be “in Christ” and are joined with Him, being one spirit with Christ, thereby being one spirit with eternal life; the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

The definition of eternal life is knowing Him. John 17:3


This is how we have eternal life (salvation) when we believe, by being in Christ.



Then on the other hand, we “inherit” eternal life on the Day of Judgement after we have faithfully followed Him; His teachings and commandments. IOW we have obeyed Him, as our Lord.

Example:

Jesus —

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


Paul —

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Jesus —

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Jesus and Paul exactly then same thing.


However, we must understand in order to live our lives in obedience to Christ, in doing good, we must have eternal life within us, we must have the Spirit of Life within us, leading us and guiding us, influencing us unto righteousness.




JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

There is regeneration, which is being born again, or what we called saved by faith, then there is the Day we will receive the salvation of our souls, which is the end result of faith.

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:9


IOW, there is initial salvation, being born again, whereby we are baptized into Christ, then there is receiving the salvation of our soul on the Day of Judgement.


By grasping these two different experiences and understanding one is at the beginning of our faith when we first believe, and the other is at the end of of faith when we are judged according to how we lived; according to our deeds, we can discuss salvation in harmony with each other without creating division.


Example:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

This is true, but refers to when we are first born again, in which we come to be “in Christ” and are joined with Him, being one spirit with Christ, thereby being one spirit with eternal life; the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

The definition of eternal life is knowing Him. John 17:3


This is how we have eternal life (salvation) when we believe, by being in Christ.



Then on the other hand, we “inherit” eternal life on the Day of Judgement after we have faithfully followed Him; His teachings and commandments. IOW we have obeyed Him, as our Lord.

Example:

Jesus —

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29


Paul —

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Jesus —

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Jesus and Paul exactly then same thing.


However, we must understand in order to live our lives in obedience to Christ, in doing good, we must have eternal life within us, we must have the Spirit of Life within us, leading us and guiding us, influencing us unto righteousness.




JLB

Hi JLB
Thank you for taking time to reply. As you're aware I profoundly respect your knowledge of the Word. And have learned significantly from you ever since November 2017, when I joined this forum. Since I'm not in town, I'll extend this response tomorrow as well. All your points are well taken. However I feel hurt about the word division. My intention and objective is only one, we ALL unite in Christ . It's just my interpretation of the salvation message of Christ ( based on His own teachings are significantly different from those of a majority of Churches. and that's why I contribute less know , even as I love the Lord even more now. And let Christ be our witness and judge. In my deepest darkest moments of despair and rejection, when my entire family left me earlier this year, even as I had barely recovered from an almost fatal illness / disorder , Lord Jesus did not forsake me. In fact His Spirit drew very close to me as I moved all alone to a new apartment , grieving for my wife and children, who had forsaken me. In those moments of great grief and suffocating suffering, He put His arms around me and drew me close to Him, as I have never experienced before .... So much love I experienced that for moments I would think my rejection had become a blesding.. Then i realized the true value, meaning and WEIGHT of who God truly is....Love. And that was also the highlight of Christ's teachings ....Love . His greatest commandments were also Love ---- Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7 :12 . So did the Apostle John, the one whom Christ loved, grasp the depth of the infinite love of the infinite God.
That's why John says in 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love, does not know God, For God is Love "
Will complete the reply tomorrow JLB . Bear with me until then.
God bless everyone with wisdom and compassion. May He grant us the strength and discernment to always elect to do the Will of God over our will ?

 

[GodsGrace]

As I dig deeper into the words of Christ, His uttered words and recorded for us in the Bible, I see a different picture emerging than what I was taught in my Church---- where salvation seemed to grab the center-stage in the teaching and preaching of the gospel. The teachers there often used these phrases like " Come to Jesus if you wish to be saved" " I am secure in my salvation" " I was saved the day I believed in Christ" " You must love Christ because He saved you " etc etc.

If you notice friends, most of these comforting words of salvation are in the past tense ( meaning you are ALREADY saved when you believed in Jesus).
But as I studied the Word more n more --- cover to cover, I started realizing that Jesus, the savior and author of human salvation, was NOT teaching that.

From the words of our lord, it appears He does not approve of those who come to Him (only for)salvation(He wants only those who are willing to do the Will of God versus their own will ( Matthew 7:21 mark 3:35). In fact, he warns such people they will lose their salvation!

Let's take a gander at the words of Christ on salvation, and hopefully heed the warning/ caveats of Christ about those who come to Him exclusively to seek salvation--- without willing to do Will of God or willing to lay down their lives if needed for Jesus Christ :

John 12: 5
Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.
Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.

So why did you think we can still be saved if we come to Jesus seeking salvation?

My former church kept hammering on Salvation, Salvation, and salvation – seldom teaching the congregation to learn to do the will of God ( which was practicing loving-compassion to ALL ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, 1 John4:8)

They wanted us, believers, to be “perfectly secure in our salvation".
We the Church were taught salvation as main teaching point of the Word whereas it should have been “DO the will OF GOD if you wish to be saved” – And that Will was : Love God and love all ( which many of us don’t do—simply because were never taught that to be done to be saved ). Many of us break the rules of Father God thinking we are yet saved (because we believe!) . many of us do not fear God or keep His commandments – which is the core message of Bible ( Ecclesiastes 12:12)

But, In the vision of future--- Jesus provided for us in Matthew 25:31-46, in the vision of the GOATS and SHEEP ---when Jesus is sitting on His judgment seat and we are standing in front of Him, awaiting His verdict for us, the vision of the GOATS and SHEEP---- it’s NOT a parable, but a glimpse of a future event waiting to happen. However on that day – day which will surely come in our future —many who merely believed BUT did not practice loving-kindness were not saved. Although from Goats account it appears they believed, but because they didn’t practice loving- compassion (as the sheep did) the Goats ended up being condemned on the last day. But the Sheep who not only believed but practiced Loving-compassion were take home by Jesus and given eternal life.
This begs the vital question: Should we teach others (and ourselves ) to come to Christ ( exclusively) for salvation when Jesus repeatedly warned in the above-cited verses—spread over all four gospels, so we are without excuse--- that “all those wish to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it?

To me its abundantly clear that the Messiah is saying “ Don’t come to me if you only wish to be saved, but come to me if you’re willing to obey my commands and implement what I teach--- even if it means you have to lay down your life for me and for the sake of spreading/ sharing the gospel”

As He laid down his life for us, Jesus is asking in an unequivocal and unmistakable manner that we be prepared to do the same--- die for Him (if needed) if we wish to follow Him. Jesus repeats the same message in “The Cost of Being a Disciple” account: Leaving ALL to Follow Christ, in the Gospel of Luke passage Luke 14:25–33

I would also like to quote Jesus on other writers in Bible --- none is greater than Him and that’s why I strongly believe Jesus’ words trump any other writer in NT. Jesus says , (and notice He says Truly, Truly ) in John 13:16, NASB: "'Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him."

Jesus says the same thing in different words about Himself in Matthew 12:42 “One greater than Solomon is here”

And Hebrews 3:3 reveals “Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.”

So it’s crystal clear to me , one cannot be saved if they come seeking exclusively to be saved , BUT can only be saved if they are willing to turn from sin and DO the Will of God as Jesus warned/ cautioned in Matthew 7:21 , Mark 3:35 and John and Peter share the same thought:

1 Peter 4:2 : “Consequently, he does not live out his remaining time on earth for human passions, but for the will of God.

1 John 2:17 : “The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever.”

So I repeat the question(s) :

• Will those who come(or came) to Jesus exclusively for being saved, and not to do the Will of God ( which may include their willingness to lay down their lives down for Christ and the gospel) be condemned on the last day?
• Is it prudent to assure those who come to Christ by saying : “You are saved already since you have believed”

Submitted in love and respect ?.......Raj

Hi RS,
Nice to see you again!

I have two comments re the above:

1. I agree that people are using the word SALVATION and SAVED in a way that it was never used before in Christianity.
The words have always been used but they have been tied with works --- a nasty word these days.

Jesus said we are to be His disciple. He never used the word SALVATION OR SAVED in the way it is meant today...as if it were a one-time experience and that was the end of it.

Salvation is naturally followed by a changed behavior and good works. Different persons will explain good works in different ways...I think any understanding is good since we are all at different levels and we cannot all do the same works.

As James said: A faith without works is a dead faith because it shows no change in a person's life and Jesus changes our lifeview.


2. As to laying down our lives for Christ....this was discussed in a bible study I attended with a very wise and learned monk.
A woman there stated that she would lay down her life for Christ. I commented that we would never know this until or unless it really came about and we had to really make this decision.

I just feel, generally, that we don't know what we will really do until we are faced with the problem/choice.
But whatever the choice would be....I do feel that God is merciful and would understand our dilemma.

This does, of course, make me think of the early Christians that did lay down their lives for their faith rather than bow down to an earthly ruler (the Caesar in this case) and I do feel a bit guilty about not being more sure of what I would do.
I THINK I would confess my faith...but I'm not sure.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Hi RS,
Nice to see you again!

I have two comments re the above:

1. I agree that people are using the word SALVATION and SAVED in a way that it was never used before in Christianity.
The words have always been used but they have been tied with works --- a nasty word these days.

Jesus said we are to be His disciple. He never used the word SALVATION OR SAVED in the way it is meant today...as if it were a one-time experience and that was the end of it.

Salvation is naturally followed by a changed behavior and good works. Different persons will explain good works in different ways...I think any understanding is good since we are all at different levels and we cannot all do the same works.

As James said: A faith without works is a dead faith because it shows no change in a person's life and Jesus changes our lifeview.


2. As to laying down our lives for Christ....this was discussed in a bible study I attended with a very wise and learned monk.
A woman there stated that she would lay down her life for Christ. I commented that we would never know this until or unless it really came about and we had to really make this decision.

I just feel, generally, that we don't know what we will really do until we are faced with the problem/choice.
But whatever the choice would be....I do feel that God is merciful and would understand our dilemma.

This does, of course, make me think of the early Christians that did lay down their lives for their faith rather than bow down to an earthly ruler (the Caesar in this case) and I do feel a bit guilty about not being more sure of what I would do.
I THINK I would confess my faith...but I'm not sure.

Hello sister Wondering. Always happy to read your words . True, that words Salvation and Saved should be guardedly used by Christians. Not rampantly and freely, as some use it in today's day and time. I do not.
Coming to dying for Jesus : Some of the ones who laid down their lives were ones who denied Him, when Jesus was on earth . Possibly not just Peter alone . You've raised a good point sister Wondering. Will we or wont we? Will I be able to lay down our life for Him... I do not know either way. Some of my friends in the army say, that some of their colleagues who were cowardly otherwise, something happened to them when they were in midst of action (war) and some of these emerged as great heroes and even martyrs. I believe Jesus's Spirit entered those who laid down their lives for Him, when the push came to shove, and beyond. Finally it would be the greatest honor if that could happen to me . Hope it does. Probability says it's not going to happen. Finally God's will be done either way. This is a prayer I'm obsessed with. "Lord Your Will Be Done" To the extent , no matter what I pray, if I pray, I urge the Lord subsequent to the prayer "Reject my prayer Lord, if it's not consistent with your will. Let Your Will be done "
It's after a lot of hard knocks, even as a Christian, that this one line salvation message of Bible finally entered my thick skull "Lord. Let. Your. Will. Be. Done! "
Jesus says in John 15 :13 (NLT) "There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends."
This quote is not limited only to Christ laying down His life for us. But it's also His expectation from us whom He called Friends. That like Him, we may also demonstrate our love for Him in the same way. His apostles responded in the affirmative by laying down their lives.
Jesus says in John 15: 15 " I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."
It's a covenant sister. A covenant has bilateral obligations. Somehow it was reduced to unilateral. Everything was placed on Jesus. All we had to do was believe. And therefore I quoted a bunch of Christ words, caveats if you will, that whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever lays down their life for me will keep it . I take these words very seriously, since they are found throughout the four gospels. Sometimes more than once. I take these words to my heart and to my soul. And I do not desire salvation . Whatever Jesus hands out to me on the day of judgment is welcome. Even in those moments of my eternal destiny, His Will be done. Blessings upon everyone /\
[These above thoughts are mine alone. It is completely fine with me if some do not wish to agree. I will still respect you . By losing an argument to a brother/ sister I will win :]
I end this long post with words of Sadhu Sundar Singh , an eminent 19th century Evangelist in India . His thoughts resonate with my own :
"Should I worship Him from fear of hell, may I be cast into it. Should I serve Him from desire of gaining heaven, may He keep me out. But should I worship Him from love alone, He reveals Himself to me, that my whole heart may be filled with His love and presence."
(Sadhu Sundar Singh )

 

[JLB]

However I feel hurt about the word division.

The statement I made refers to myself first and foremost, and to all (not you or anyone specifically) who are over balanced towards the teachings in scripture.

IOW my statement was a general statement and not directed to you specifically.


Please don’t take it that way.


Bless you brother.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It's just my interpretation of the salvation message of Christ ( based on His own teachings are significantly different from those of a majority of Churches.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

And that was also the highlight of Christ's teachings ....Love . His greatest commandments were also Love ---- Matthew 22:37-40,

Amen, Love is defined as keeping His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3


Paul calls this obeying the truth, as well as being led by the Spirit.


I hope you can see that Paul taught the same doctrine as Christ.


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi JLB
Thank you for taking time to reply. As you're aware I profoundly respect your knowledge of the Word. And have learned significantly from you ever since November 2017, when I joined this forum. Since I'm not in town, I'll extend this response tomorrow as well. All your points are well taken. However I feel hurt about the word division. My intention and objective is only one, we ALL unite in Christ . It's just my interpretation of the salvation message of Christ ( based on His own teachings are significantly different from those of a majority of Churches. and that's why I contribute less know , even as I love the Lord even more now. And let Christ be our witness and judge. In my deepest darkest moments of despair and rejection, when my entire family left me earlier this year, even as I had barely recovered from an almost fatal illness / disorder , Lord Jesus did not forsake me. In fact His Spirit drew very close to me as I moved all alone to a new apartment , grieving for my wife and children, who had forsaken me. In those moments of great grief and suffocating suffering, He put His arms around me and drew me close to Him, as I have never experienced before .... So much love I experienced that for moments I would think my rejection had become a blesding.. Then i realized the true value, meaning and WEIGHT of who God truly is....Love. And that was also the highlight of Christ's teachings ....Love . His greatest commandments were also Love ---- Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7 :12 . So did the Apostle John, the one whom Christ loved, grasp the depth of the infinite love of the infinite God.
That's why John says in 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love, does not know God, For God is Love "
Will complete the reply tomorrow JLB . Bear with me until then.
God bless everyone with wisdom and compassion. May He grant us the strength and discernment to always elect to do the Will of God over our will ?

Hi RS
JLB will answer for himself, but I don't think he meant that YOU are causing division.

The reason I'm posting is because what you believe is known as doing works today.
Works is not a good word these days because some persons want to do what your thread is about.
They believe that they come to Jesus and then can live any way they want to and still be saved.
I hear preachers stating this on youtube --- I've had the occasion to listen to a lot of it lately and what I see is disturbing.

So these two ideas is what is causing division....
The idea that we receive what JLB calls initial salvation (I call it justification)
and then we are to continue on this path till our death (sanctification) until we
receive our salvation, or inherit it. (glorification).

The other idea is the one I stated which teaches that one is saved by Jesus....
Jesus does all the work and the person does nothing...but somehow Jesus
saves the person as if Jesus was a good luck charm.

 

[Link1983]

As I dig deeper into the words of Christ, His uttered words and recorded for us in the Bible, I see a different picture emerging than what I was taught in my Church---- where salvation seemed to grab the center-stage in the teaching and preaching of the gospel. The teachers there often used these phrases like " Come to Jesus if you wish to be saved" " I am secure in my salvation" " I was saved the day I believed in Christ" " You must love Christ because He saved you " etc etc.

If you notice friends, most of these comforting words of salvation are in the past tense ( meaning you are ALREADY saved when you believed in Jesus).
But as I studied the Word more n more --- cover to cover, I started realizing that Jesus, the savior and author of human salvation, was NOT teaching that.

From the words of our lord, it appears He does not approve of those who come to Him (only for)salvation(He wants only those who are willing to do the Will of God versus their own will ( Matthew 7:21 mark 3:35). In fact, he warns such people they will lose their salvation!

Let's take a gander at the words of Christ on salvation, and hopefully heed the warning/ caveats of Christ about those who come to Him exclusively to seek salvation--- without willing to do Will of God or willing to lay down their lives if needed for Jesus Christ :

John 12: 5
Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.
Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.

So why did you think we can still be saved if we come to Jesus seeking salvation?

My former church kept hammering on Salvation, Salvation, and salvation – seldom teaching the congregation to learn to do the will of God ( which was practicing loving-compassion to ALL ( Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, 1 John4:8)

They wanted us, believers, to be “perfectly secure in our salvation".
We the Church were taught salvation as main teaching point of the Word whereas it should have been “DO the will OF GOD if you wish to be saved” – And that Will was : Love God and love all ( which many of us don’t do—simply because were never taught that to be done to be saved ). Many of us break the rules of Father God thinking we are yet saved (because we believe!) . many of us do not fear God or keep His commandments – which is the core message of Bible ( Ecclesiastes 12:12)

But, In the vision of future--- Jesus provided for us in Matthew 25:31-46, in the vision of the GOATS and SHEEP ---when Jesus is sitting on His judgment seat and we are standing in front of Him, awaiting His verdict for us, the vision of the GOATS and SHEEP---- it’s NOT a parable, but a glimpse of a future event waiting to happen. However on that day – day which will surely come in our future —many who merely believed BUT did not practice loving-kindness were not saved. Although from Goats account it appears they believed, but because they didn’t practice loving- compassion (as the sheep did) the Goats ended up being condemned on the last day. But the Sheep who not only believed but practiced Loving-compassion were take home by Jesus and given eternal life.
This begs the vital question: Should we teach others (and ourselves ) to come to Christ ( exclusively) for salvation when Jesus repeatedly warned in the above-cited verses—spread over all four gospels, so we are without excuse--- that “all those wish to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it?

To me its abundantly clear that the Messiah is saying “ Don’t come to me if you only wish to be saved, but come to me if you’re willing to obey my commands and implement what I teach--- even if it means you have to lay down your life for me and for the sake of spreading/ sharing the gospel”

As He laid down his life for us, Jesus is asking in an unequivocal and unmistakable manner that we be prepared to do the same--- die for Him (if needed) if we wish to follow Him. Jesus repeats the same message in “The Cost of Being a Disciple” account: Leaving ALL to Follow Christ, in the Gospel of Luke passage Luke 14:25–33

I would also like to quote Jesus on other writers in Bible --- none is greater than Him and that’s why I strongly believe Jesus’ words trump any other writer in NT. Jesus says , (and notice He says Truly, Truly ) in John 13:16, NASB: "'Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him."

Jesus says the same thing in different words about Himself in Matthew 12:42 “One greater than Solomon is here”

And Hebrews 3:3 reveals “Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.”

So it’s crystal clear to me , one cannot be saved if they come seeking exclusively to be saved , BUT can only be saved if they are willing to turn from sin and DO the Will of God as Jesus warned/ cautioned in Matthew 7:21 , Mark 3:35 and John and Peter share the same thought:

1 Peter 4:2 : “Consequently, he does not live out his remaining time on earth for human passions, but for the will of God.

1 John 2:17 : “The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever.”

So I repeat the question(s) :

• Will those who come(or came) to Jesus exclusively for being saved, and not to do the Will of God ( which may include their willingness to lay down their lives down for Christ and the gospel) be condemned on the last day?
• Is it prudent to assure those who come to Christ by saying : “You are saved already since you have believed”

Submitted in love and respect ?.......Raj

Jesus IS our salvation. Many true words here. Not all Christians are truly walking as should. Some are even false and should be exposed.
That being said we should be very careful to judge. But focus mostly on ourselves and what we can say or do to help everyone.
These Scriptures should encourage us to follow Him even more and more each day.
M

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Hi RS
JLB will answer for himself, but I don't think he meant that YOU are causing division.

The reason I'm posting is because what you believe is known as doing works today.
Works is not a good word these days because some persons want to do what your thread is about.
They believe that they come to Jesus and then can live any way they want to and still be saved.
I hear preachers stating this on youtube --- I've had the occasion to listen to a lot of it lately and what I see is disturbing.

So these two ideas is what is causing division....
The idea that we receive what JLB calls initial salvation (I call it justification)
and then we are to continue on this path till our death (sanctification) until we
receive our salvation, or inherit it. (glorification).

The other idea is the one I stated which teaches that one is saved by Jesus....
Jesus does all the work and the person does nothing...but somehow Jesus
saves the person as if Jesus was a good luck charm.

Completely agreed ?

 

[jerry63935]

Will those who come to Jesus, exclusively to be saved, lose their salvation on the last day ? why the last day? if truly saved i dont see it.. but then again it depends on who you ask​

 

[jerry63935]

From the words of our lord, it appears He does not approve of those who come to Him (only for)salvation(He wants only those who are willing to do the Will of God versus their own will ( Matthew 7:21 mark 3:35). In fact, he warns such people they will lose their salvation!

they was never saved

 

[JLB]

Will those who come to Jesus, exclusively to be saved, lose their salvation on the last day ? why the last day? if truly saved i dont see it.. but then again it depends on who you ask​

Here is the day of Judgement, when we as Christians will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our deeds.


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10

• that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

A snapshot of that Day --



“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46


Here is examples of the deeds, both good and bad that cause some to inherit eternal life, while others do not.


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

• for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
• I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
• I was a stranger and you took Me in;
• I was naked and you clothed Me;
• I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

• for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
• I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
• I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
• naked and you did not clothe Me,
• sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Here is the day of Judgement, when we as Christians will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our deeds.


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10

• that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

A snapshot of that Day --



“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46


Here is examples of the deeds, both good and bad that cause some to inherit eternal life, while others do not.


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

• for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
• I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
• I was a stranger and you took Me in;
• I was naked and you clothed Me;
• I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

• for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
• I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
• I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
• naked and you did not clothe Me,
• sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

JLB

That is so beautifully explained brother JLB ?. Does not get clearer than that. Who else but you , can describe it with so much ( biblical) accuracy, citing the most relevant and pertinent verses. ?Thank you for sharing it ?

 

[Hospes]

Will those who come(or came) to Jesus exclusively for being saved, and not to do the Will of God ( which may include their willingness to lay down their lives down for Christ and the gospel) be condemned on the last day?

I think a very well be attracted to Christ solely looking for salvation from God's wrath. But salvation from His wrath is never the only thing that happens when a person is born again. We are saved FROM wrath and saved TO all the promises of the Gospel. A person truly saved by God has not only been rescued from Hell but also has found their supreme treasure.

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. Matthew 13:44 (ESV)​

Note that in joy the man gives all to gain what he has deemed to be of greatest value. This is the response and the life goal of a truly born-again believer: to joyfully lose all to gain what is more than worth it all. Frankly, if a person "gets saved" from Hell and shows no valuing of Jesus, then I have no reason to think they are born again.

Is it prudent to assure those who come to Christ by saying : “You are saved already since you have believed”

In my experience, one of the evangelical mistakes is assuring someone they are a born-again due to the fact that they mouthed a prayer. I have seen the "The sinner's prayer" used like an incantation. If we get someone to say some magical words, POOF!, they are now regenerated.

The true tragedy is when a person says the words, is assured by all they are now Christian, and after a bit fall away because they never were truly born again in Christ. One wonders if they look back and say, "I was a Christian, but there wasn't much treasure in it."

Side Rant: What adult Christians do to children in eagerly getting them to say a sinners prayer and then celebrating their "decision" is abusive. Children will do a lot for an adult, simply as a means of pleasing the adult. My mother was told, on multiple occasions by well-meaning Sunday school teachers, the glorious news my sister had decided to give her life to Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

However I feel hurt about the word division. My intention and objective is only one, we ALL unite in Christ

Hi Rajesh, I don't think JLB was saying you were causing division, but that by truth that Christ taught we should all be in unity of the truth Jesus taught as we are all one in the body of Christ. It wasn't anything personal directed at you. You bring much into the discussions and I appreciate that of what you post.

God bless you.