Will those who come to Jesus, exclusively to be saved, lose their salvation on the last day?

[jerry63935]

sigh**** i know you feel you are a scholar on rev. the the bema seat and the white throne judgment are 2 separate judgements i have done out lined the rewards and the crowns which are basically the same . paul saw a crown of righteousness laid up for him. there are soul winner crowns . last but not least yes we give accountability for our works . but there is no lose of salvation. you and jlb start your own post and discuss this till the moon appears . i have scanned over your 4 paragraphs and i still stand by post. 2 Separate judgments i will not stand before the white throne Judgement seat ..maybe you and jlb think you will. but i wont i stand at the bema seat

 

[for_his_glory]

when do you think the spiritual crowns are handed out ? the white throne judgment ?

Yes, at the Great White throne Judgement where Christ will judge all as the books are opened and every person that has ever lived is then judged. John 5:21-30 are the words of Jesus that shows us He is the one who sits on the great white throne in Gods final judgement and Paul confirms this in Acts 17:31. Jesus brings His rewards with Him on the last day, John 6:40; Revelation 22:10-21

CROWN OF LIFE
Martyr's crown is the crown of life given to those who have endured all temptations, trials and tribulations here on earth and have never taken no thought of their own lives, but remained steadfast in the word of God living their lives in total surrender to Jesus. James 1:12; Rev 2:10

CROWN OF REJOICING
A crown of rejoicing is a soul winner’s crown. When we accept Gods commission to take his word out into the world through the power of the Holy Spirit working through us we all rejoice when one lost soul comes back to Gods grace. It’s like the story of the Shepard that had a flock of sheep and one of them strayed away. Even though he loved all his flock he rejoiced more for the lost one he found as now his whole flock was again all together. Imagine the rejoicing if all Gods lost children were found and brought back to Gods grace. What a day of rejoicing that would be. We rejoice in the goodness of God for all the blessings he pours out on us as he is faithful with his promises. 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 20; Philippians 4:1; Matthew 28:18; Matthew 18:11-13

CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
A crown for those who love his appearing and will be given in that day to the Lord as a bride to a groom. We will see God in all his glory and his righteousness which is our strength when Jesus returns in the clouds to catch us up to meet him in the air and to be with the Lord forever. Gods’ righteousness is perfect in all his judgment on his people. With Gods righteousness we are perfected as we go through the refiner’s fire to be made pure and holy before his throne of grace. It doesn’t matter how we ourselves try to be righteous we can never be so on our own ability because our own righteousness is as a filthy rag before the Lord because we are all sinners, but those who have been Spiritually reborn or renewed of Gods Spirit to them they have been made righteous before the Father.
2 Timothy 4:8; Isaiah 45:24; Isaiah 61:10

CROWN INCORRUPTIBLE
An incorruptible crown is a victor’s crown to those who have died to self and are subject to the guidance of the Holy Spirit leading them in all their ways and teach with the knowledge that only comes by the Holy Spirit who will teach us all things and bring those things back to our remembrance. None of us are perfect in our own ways, but are perfected by the Holy Spirit working in us and through us.
1 Corinthians 9:25-27; 1 John 2:28,29; Rev 4:10, 11

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 4:10-11
the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.” who gave the crowns ? do you deny the crowns ? if so you deny scripture . why would paul say i fought a good fight ?

2 Timothy 4:7-8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me {a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.} please note the Lord the Righteous JUDGE ALSO NOT ME ONLY BUT THOSE THAT LOVE HIS APPEARING ... WHO IS lord ?? I REALIZE YOUR NOTED AS THE KING OF SCRIPTURES .. but understand i know scriptures to . i just answered your question . where and who gave the 24 elders there crowns that they cast at the throne. to me the crowns/rewards is not my goal although it comes with the territory . our works is tried by fire wood hay stubble things that burn up . Gold silver precious stone things /works that are purified by the fire .


9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

note at this judgement
HE Himself shall be saved yet so as through fire. its a judgment of works not if we go to heaven or Hell /lake of fire

The twenty four elders around the throne of God cast their crowns before the throne as they give praise, glory and honor to God. The crowns they lay down are the crowns of glory as they are the head of worship and praise to God in heaven.

These Elders are not the same as the Elders of the church here on earth that are to be patterned after the ones in Heaven. We read that the crowns they lay down are crowns of glory, not righteousness, as in giving praise and glory to God being around the throne of God in the third heaven.

This is very different than the four crowns we receive on the day of judgement that we lay before the feet of Christ.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Bless you and thanks. We know the only way someone comes to Christ/GOD.. He is the one that drew them to Himself. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

The sheep and goats are not us. Not the bema seat. Those sheep and goats are those when Christ comes sets foot on the earth and gathers the nations that just came out of the great tribulation. Not one Church not one Christian ask Christ about the future. All of them were still under the law. Christ had not died yet and rose PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS.

Forgive me its you that said this not Christ "Don’t come to me if you only wish to be saved, but come to me if you’re willing to obey my commands and implement what I teach" you also said "DO the will OF GOD if you wish to be saved" In at least two of the verses you used its "love less". Then some of those verses were not spoken on the same occasion. Context.

What you said there is not in the word of God. The 12 had been with Him for years.. they are no long servants but friends and if you love me keep my words/commands. How can you love someone you don't know? Its not saved if you obey.. its if you love me keep my words/commands. This is the king of kings "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

You leave out who ever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. What the thief on the cross was lucky? No luck in heaven. Anyway all this is mute. Well we have to go back to the start "exclusively for being saved".<---this is not true. Its not in the word of God. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." So anyone that comes to Him.. HE is the one that draws them. How can you love someone you don't know?

John 3:16 Rom 10 :9-10. The thief believed that's what got him in. He didn't love Him didn't obey Him. Granted time was not on his side See He draws us in.. something that was dead is made new. That new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. See each day we have to die to self. We die daily. From the OT which is not old there is none righteous. We are only righteous because of Christ. We will lay down our crowns at His feet why? Because EVERYHING GOOD we have ever done.. was HIM and HIM alone. And what He started He finish's.

I want to say something yet I have no way of making it real. YESHUA/JESUS Christ is real. He is more real then your best friend or parents or spouse or brother and sister. His sheep you and me know His voice. Jesus is REAL! He has not changed. The sweet holy Spirit is real and talks. Seek and ask Him.. HE will always backup what HE says by His word.

Didn't come to offend. I disagree when it comes to saying something that is not written.

John 3:16 is a known favorite of many Churches . It's a beautiful scripture which talks about great Love of God for His creation, and the importance of believing in the Son of God.
However what I do not appteciate is this verse is typically taught as a standalone scriptural requirement for salvation. I call this a classic act of " cherrypicking " verses to prove a certain point or doctrine. If John 3:16 is being quoted onit's own, it does not do justice to salvation message of the Word. 20 verses subsequent to John 3:16, which is John 3:36, which completes the scriptural requirement of the doctrine of Salvation. John the Baptist says John 3:36 , what James says in 2:20 , Faith is dead without good works.
John the Baptist in John 3:36 "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
So when we read John 3:16 ALONG with John 3:36 ( and James 2:20) we get a full picture of the salvation doctrine of Jesus Christ our Lord. By reading/ quoting John 3 :16 ( faith) as singular requirement for salvation, we do injustice to the message

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey there, and thank you. So far the community seems pretty laid back for the most part,Ive enjoyed my stay.

As for the rest, I agree. Most tend to look at one or the other and dont grasp the need for a balance of both.

Unfortunately much of that is due to the leaning biases and/or contorted teachings from many of the different denominations. So many conflicting ideologies are out there that it tends to muddy the waters quite a bit. Fresh faces come along and have a tough time figuring it out which leads to many giving up the faith or ending up in left field, far removed from the path.

But anyway,thanks again and see you around.

I agree with the above.
I sometimes have wished Jesus would have been MORE clear about everything so that there could be no question.
To me He was clear enough, but, apparently not to everyone.

Then I hear that Jesus taught a different gospel from Paul.
Paul sounds less demanding so they quote Paul --- but it's Jesus that went to the cross for us.

As to the different denominations --- different ideas began pretty soon after Jesus resurrection.
Gnostics were entering the church already while John was still alive.
So I guess it's just the human condition and if it were any different it wouldn't be a spiritual experience
but it would be more like legality or authoratarianism.

I always pray new Christians end up in a good church.
And that they check out everything they are told for themselves.
Acts 17:11
11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

"I sometimes have wished Jesus would have been MORE clear about everything so that there could be no question.
To me He was clear enough, but, apparently not to everyone."

Sister Wondering, I was avoiding talking/ writing on this subject which is very close to my heart, as the Christian Faith itself, but when someone like you, who has possibly spent a lifetime examining and loving Jesus, says "I sometimes have wished Jesus would have been MORE clear about everything so that there could be no question" I could no longer contain my desire to share with my heart and soul--- solely from the Scriptures. Not one word from my own feelings or thinking.

The question you have asked is exceedingly pertinent “I sometimes have wished Jesus would have been MORE clear about everything so that there could be no question”

This is a great observation --- because there IS a contradiction between what Jesus taught and what the thirteenth apostle, Paul, taught. When I examined deeply the teachings of this thirteenth apostle, I found he had contradicted Christ in 4 big ways. 96% of other times he was in sync.

My first question is this:

If Jesus, who is the GOD of the universe ( John 10:30, Jeremiah 23:24)– and even He is not being able to express Himself clearly , WHO CAN? Nobody.

However there IS a confusion whether we are saved by Faith alone or we are saved by Faith and Obedience. Most protestant Churches will vehemently say NO to obedience as a contributing factor on the last day, the judgment day .

It’s another thing that all those who come to Christ exclusively to be saved will be condemned regardless on the last day ( which is the topic of this thread and several of Jesus quotes have been mentioned to that effect there--- “whoever wants to save their life will lose it……” ) So question # 1 is was Jesus unsuccessful in clearly stating His message, that the world was waiting for –as He is the savior?

Answer is NOPE .. He wasn’t. He clearly and lucidly ( like daylight) shared His message --- all confusion is because of this thirteenth apostle. Had it NOT been the thirteenth apostle’s doctrine there would never have been the rampant confusion that there is today ---with a billion of more Christians believing we are saved by faith alone ( works or obedience do not play a part), and that the law is dead we are now under Grace.

Before I’m summarily judged and condemned for writing this piece, I will humbly plead and implore polite and courteous discussions relying on scripture rather than angry judgment, simply because I write in unequivocal terms it was Paul who is the cause of all confusion in the doctrine of Christ in NT. The whole message of Christ was garbled because of 4 points Paul made/ taught—and which directly contradict what father God and Son taught. So please pay attention it guys /\



Point #1 of Paul doctrine which contradicts the doctrine of God and the Son:



Paul repeatedly says WE ARE DEAD TO THE LAW OR RELEASED FROM THE LAW

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.



Romans 7:2

For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.



Romans 7:4

Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.



Romans 7:6 ►

• 
  
• But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:2

For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

(we have been now released from Law, says Paul)

• Galatians 5:18
• But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
• ( we are no longer under law if we are led by Spirit—so who is lead by Spirit who is not? Who decides that? )
• 
  
• Romans 5: 20 : The Law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more
• 
  
• Romans 3:20 : Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Here is what Jesus teaches about the LAW can never depart or die--- the universe can go, but the Law simply CANNOT! (Matthew 5:17-18)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with--not until the end of all things”

Jesus is saying succinctly, unequivocally, and emphatically , The universe can go, but the Law of God simply CANNOT go!)

Father God Himself affirms this rock-solid Truth through His words in Hebrews 10:16 and Jeremiah 31:33

"This Is The Covenant That I Will Make With Them After Those Days, Says The Lord God, “I Will Put My Laws Upon Their Heart, And On Their Mind I Will Write Them,"

So my question # 1 is why does Paul repeat again and again that the Law is dead, we are now under Grace--- this is nothing but blasphemy to me since it rejects both Father and Son’s emphatic statement that Law cannot go—even if the universe itself goes!

So friends with folded hands and love and respect I ask you to quote scriptures and tell me why should I believe Paul when he says the law is Dead , and now we are under Grace. Not one writer in entire Bible dared say that. To me. So to say God’s Law is dead is nothing but blasphemy to me, since it's written on human and hearts and minds, nobody in this universe can change that truth.

I await your valued response ….respectfully submitted …Raj

( I will be mentioning 3 other major contradictions of Paul. But subsequently – after we discuss this major contradiction)

 

[Quantrill]

Rajesh Sahu

In post #(64) why did you misquote (John 3:36)?

You make serious remarks, accusations, against Paul. So how many books are in your Bible? Is your Bible inspired by God...the very written Word of God?

Quantrill

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh Sahu

In post #(64) why did you misquote (John 3:36)?

You make serious remarks, accusations, against Paul. So how many books are in your Bible? Is your Bible inspired by God...the very written Word of God?

Quantrill

How did I misquote John 3:36?
Looking forward to your response

John 3: 36 in several different versions


John 3:36 ►


New Living Translation

And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”


English Standard Version

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.



Berean Literal Bible

The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."



New American Standard Bible

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Good News Translation

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.


International Standard Version

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.


A Faithful Version

The one who believes in the Son has everlasting life; but the one who does not obey the Son shall not see life, for the wrath of God remains on him."



Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Whoever is trusting in The Son, has The Eternal Life, and whoever disobeys The Son shall not see The Life, but the anger of God shall abide upon him.”





New American Standard 1977

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


American Standard Version

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Darby Bible Translation

He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.


English Revised Version

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.



Webster's Bible Translation



Weymouth New Testament

He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.

World English Bible
One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

 

[for_his_glory]

Sister Wondering, I was avoiding talking/ writing on this subject which is very close to my heart, as the Christian Faith itself, but when someone like you, who has possibly spent a lifetime examining and loving Jesus, says "I sometimes have wished Jesus would have been MORE clear about everything so that there could be no question" I could no longer contain my desire to share with my heart and soul--- solely from the Scriptures. Not one word from my own feelings or thinking.

The question you have asked is exceedingly pertinent “I sometimes have wished Jesus would have been MORE clear about everything so that there could be no question”

This is a great observation --- because there IS a contradiction between what Jesus taught and what the thirteenth apostle, Paul, taught. When I examined deeply the teachings of this thirteenth apostle, I found he had contradicted Christ in 4 big ways. 96% of other times he was in sync.

My first question is this:

If Jesus, who is the GOD of the universe ( John 10:30, Jeremiah 23:24)– and even He is not being able to express Himself clearly , WHO CAN? Nobody.

However there IS a confusion whether we are saved by Faith alone or we are saved by Faith and Obedience. Most protestant Churches will vehemently say NO to obedience as a contributing factor on the last day, the judgment day .

It’s another thing that all those who come to Christ exclusively to be saved will be condemned regardless on the last day ( which is the topic of this thread and several of Jesus quotes have been mentioned to that effect there--- “whoever wants to save their life will lose it……” ) So question # 1 is was Jesus unsuccessful in clearly stating His message, that the world was waiting for –as He is the savior?

Answer is NOPE .. He wasn’t. He clearly and lucidly ( like daylight) shared His message --- all confusion is because of this thirteenth apostle. Had it NOT been the thirteenth apostle’s doctrine there would never have been the rampant confusion that there is today ---with a billion of more Christians believing we are saved by faith alone ( works or obedience do not play a part), and that the law is dead we are now under Grace.

Before I’m summarily judged and condemned for writing this piece, I will humbly plead and implore polite and courteous discussions relying on scripture rather than angry judgment, simply because I write in unequivocal terms it was Paul who is the cause of all confusion in the doctrine of Christ in NT. The whole message of Christ was garbled because of 4 points Paul made/ taught—and which directly contradict what father God and Son taught. So please pay attention it guys /\



Point #1 of Paul doctrine which contradicts the doctrine of God and the Son:



Paul repeatedly says WE ARE DEAD TO THE LAW OR RELEASED FROM THE LAW

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.



Romans 7:2

For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.



Romans 7:4

Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.



Romans 7:6 ►

• 
  
• But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:2

For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

(we have been now released from Law, says Paul)

• Galatians 5:18
• But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
• ( we are no longer under law if we are led by Spirit—so who is lead by Spirit who is not? Who decides that? )
• 
  
• Romans 5: 20 : The Law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more
• 
  
• Romans 3:20 : Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Here is what Jesus teaches about the LAW can never depart or die--- the universe can go, but the Law simply CANNOT! (Matthew 5:17-18)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with--not until the end of all things”

Jesus is saying succinctly, unequivocally, and emphatically , The universe can go, but the Law of God simply CANNOT go!)

Father God Himself affirms this rock-solid Truth through His words in Hebrews 10:16 and Jeremiah 31:33

"This Is The Covenant That I Will Make With Them After Those Days, Says The Lord God, “I Will Put My Laws Upon Their Heart, And On Their Mind I Will Write Them,"

So my question # 1 is why does Paul repeat again and again that the Law is dead, we are now under Grace--- this is nothing but blasphemy to me since it rejects both Father and Son’s emphatic statement that Law cannot go—even if the universe itself goes!

So friends with folded hands and love and respect I ask you to quote scriptures and tell me why should I believe Paul when he says the law is Dead , and now we are under Grace. Not one writer in entire Bible dared say that. To me. So to say God’s Law is dead is nothing but blasphemy to me, since it's written on human and hearts and minds, nobody in this universe can change that truth.

I await your valued response ….respectfully submitted …Raj

( I will be mentioning 3 other major contradictions of Paul. But subsequently – after we discuss this major contradiction)

The law, being 613, given for the Israelites after the exodus from Egypt, had no saving provisions within them and Paul was right when he said the law brings awareness of sin for without the law we would not have known sin, Romans 7:7. It was our schoolmaster until grace by faith in Christ is what saves us in the end.

The law, beginning with the first seven given to Noah, (look up Noahic commandments) which are binding on both Jew and Gentile until Christ returns, there have been 606 laws that were added onto the seven for as much as man transgressed the laws more were added. So we see that the law did not justify anyone as the law was not of faith, but only of obedience to it. This is what Paul taught as he never contradicted Jesus, but what he has written can be very confusing as we try to understand reading line upon line, verse by verse book by book as the Holy Spirit will reveal it all to us which at times remain a mystery.

What you have posted here brings me back to John 3:1-15, especially vs. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Paul never contradicted what Jesus said, especially when we read Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

This takes us back to John 3:16-19 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Ephesians 2:8, 9 makes it very clear how we are saved, for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Those who are yet carnal, thinking all they need to do is believe in the name of Jesus and they will be saved, are foolish as even the demons believe and tremble at His name. It takes faith, regeneration through the Spiritual rebirth and being indwelled with the Holy Spirit to walk in the path of Christ as we continue in His good works He first started here on earth. We do this by the greatest commandment of love.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sister Wondering, I was avoiding talking/ writing on this subject which is very close to my heart, as the Christian Faith itself, but when someone like you, who has possibly spent a lifetime examining and loving Jesus, says "I sometimes have wished Jesus would have been MORE clear about everything so that there could be no question" I could no longer contain my desire to share with my heart and soul--- solely from the Scriptures. Not one word from my own feelings or thinking.

Hi RS,
I hope Quantrill also reads along because there are no accusations here on your part ... only misunderstandings that are rather new to an old religion, or faith, called Christianity. I have thought about this many times and I agree it's a very important topic.

The question you have asked is exceedingly pertinent “I sometimes have wished Jesus would have been MORE clear about everything so that there could be no question”

This is a great observation --- because there IS a contradiction between what Jesus taught and what the thirteenth apostle, Paul, taught. When I examined deeply the teachings of this thirteenth apostle, I found he had contradicted Christ in 4 big ways. 96% of other times he was in sync.

I must say right from the start that I do not believe Paul contradicted Jesus...I believe it only SEEMS that way to our modern and westernized mind and way of thinking. I suppose this is what we'll discuss.

My first question is this:

If Jesus, who is the GOD of the universe ( John 10:30, Jeremiah 23:24)– and even He is not being able to express Himself clearly , WHO CAN? Nobody.

However there IS a confusion whether we are saved by Faith alone or we are saved by Faith and Obedience. Most protestant Churches will vehemently say NO to obedience as a contributing factor on the last day, the judgment day .

It’s another thing that all those who come to Christ exclusively to be saved will be condemned regardless on the last day ( which is the topic of this thread and several of Jesus quotes have been mentioned to that effect there--- “whoever wants to save their life will lose it……” ) So question # 1 is was Jesus unsuccessful in clearly stating His message, that the world was waiting for –as He is the savior?

Answer is NOPE .. He wasn’t. He clearly and lucidly ( like daylight) shared His message --- all confusion is because of this thirteenth apostle. Had it NOT been the thirteenth apostle’s doctrine there would never have been the rampant confusion that there is today ---with a billion of more Christians believing we are saved by faith alone ( works or obedience do not play a part), and that the law is dead we are now under Grace.

And herein lies the problem.
The difference between LAW and GRACE.

Some will go so far as to say that what Jesus said was BEFORE the cross and we are to obey only what comes AFTER the cross.
Which is, to me, a rather alarming idea since, as you've stated, Jesus is either God or He isn't....He either created the universe, or He was born on "Dec. 25th"....
I think we, as Christians, need to come to some kind of understanding on this subject and stop refuting each other.

Not something you nor I will fix, I'm afraid.
Let me keep reading, maybe you've said what I'm thinking.

Before I’m summarily judged and condemned for writing this piece, I will humbly plead and implore polite and courteous discussions relying on scripture rather than angry judgment, simply because I write in unequivocal terms it was Paul who is the cause of all confusion in the doctrine of Christ in NT. The whole message of Christ was garbled because of 4 points Paul made/ taught—and which directly contradict what father God and Son taught. So please pay attention it guys /\

Point #1 of Paul doctrine which contradicts the doctrine of God and the Son:

Paul repeatedly says WE ARE DEAD TO THE LAW OR RELEASED FROM THE LAW

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Romans 7:2

For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.

Romans 7:4

Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 7:6 ►

• 
  
• But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:2

For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

(we have been now released from Law, says Paul)

• Galatians 5:18
• But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
• ( we are no longer under law if we are led by Spirit—so who is lead by Spirit who is not? Who decides that? )
• 
  
• Romans 5: 20 : The Law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more
• 
  
• Romans 3:20 : Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Here is what Jesus teaches about the LAW can never depart or die--- the universe can go, but the Law simply CANNOT! (Matthew 5:17-18)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with--not until the end of all things”

Jesus is saying succinctly, unequivocally, and emphatically , The universe can go, but the Law of God simply CANNOT go!)

Father God Himself affirms this rock-solid Truth through His words in Hebrews 10:16 and Jeremiah 31:33

"This Is The Covenant That I Will Make With Them After Those Days, Says The Lord God, “I Will Put My Laws Upon Their Heart, And On Their Mind I Will Write Them,"

So my question # 1 is why does Paul repeat again and again that the Law is dead, we are now under Grace--- this is nothing but blasphemy to me since it rejects both Father and Son’s emphatic statement that Law cannot go—even if the universe itself goes!

So friends with folded hands and love and respect I ask you to quote scriptures and tell me why should I believe Paul when he says the law is Dead , and now we are under Grace. Not one writer in entire Bible dared say that. To me. So to say God’s Law is dead is nothing but blasphemy to me, since it's written on human and hearts and minds, nobody in this universe can change that truth.

page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Rajesh Sahu


page 2 of 2



And, yes, you've gone down the correct road.
Here is my thinking on this:

I'd like to point to 2 Peter 3:10-18
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

The above words of Peter say it all to me.
Here is what they affirm:

1. The Day of the Lord is coming. And its works will be burned up. Works is speaking about the world....sometimes in the N.T. THE WORLD means the system of the world....the way things work between we humans here, or the world system. It could mean greed, or it could mean corruption, etc. The things men do to get to the top...to THINK that they are happy. It's the opposite system from the Kingdom of God.

2. What kind of people should we be knowing that the end is coming?
The answer Peter gives is: Holy and Godly people.
The new earth is coming and it will be inhabited by the righteous. (where righteousness dwells).

3. We are to be found by Jesus in peace, spotless and blameless.

4. Paul, by the wisdom given to him by the Holy Spirit, or even Jesus Himself, speaks of these very things. (about being holy and righteous).
However, some things Paul writes are difficult to understand....so....

5. The untaught and unstable distort what Paul had said...as they do the rest of scripture.

6. We are to be on our guard against these unprincipled men and may fall from our own steadfastness.


I feel this is what is what is happening these days.

I await your valued response ….respectfully submitted …Raj

( I will be mentioning 3 other major contradictions of Paul. But subsequently – after we discuss this major contradiction)

Jesus and Paul had the same teaching. They both taught that we are not to sin. Paul wrote about this in every letter he wrote.
Acts 20:29-32
28“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31“Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
32“And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


Paul himself is warning that after he leaves the church of Ephesus, wolves will come in, some of the saved will speak perverse things and will try to draw us away as disciples of Jesus. Paul commends that church to God and His grace, whose word is able to give us the inheritance among the sanctified.
Sanctified means to be set apart for service to God.

In Acts 24:14 Paul states that he believes everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written by the prophets.
14“But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

In Romans 7:12 Paul states that the Law is holy and good.

In Romans 15:4 Paul tells us that whatever was written in earlier times was done so for our instruction.

Romans 15:31 speaks of Paul being delivered from the disobedient in Judea and in verse 19 he rejoices over the obedience of the Roman Christians.

In Romans 13:8-13 Paul states how Christians should behave. Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, love your neighbor.

1 Corinthians 4:15,,,,Be imitators of Christ, do not be arrogant, do not be immoral, and Paul teaches this in every church. Verse17.


I could list verses in every letter Paul wrote.
He was teaching obedience.
What we don't grasp fully is what he meant by the Law and Grace.

The way I understand it is like this.....
If we live UNDER the law, we must remember everything we must do or not do in order to gain God's favor.
If we live UNDER Grace, then our love for God will allow us to naturally know what would please God.

I don't believe Paul can mean that the Law has been abolished for us but was only trying to explain the difference between being under the law
or not being under the law.

Jesus said that our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees and Scribes.
IOW....we should not worship or obey God only with our hands and feet (by doing)
but with our heart (by loving to do ).

Paul may sound like he has an easier way....
But it is not easier....he's trying to show that love makes it easier, and thus he says we are under grace....under the love of God as we also love Him.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh Sahu


page 2 of 2



And, yes, you've gone down the correct road.
Here is my thinking on this:

I'd like to point to 2 Peter 3:10-18
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

The above words of Peter say it all to me.
Here is what they affirm:

1. The Day of the Lord is coming. And its works will be burned up. Works is speaking about the world....sometimes in the N.T. THE WORLD means the system of the world....the way things work between we humans here, or the world system. It could mean greed, or it could mean corruption, etc. The things men do to get to the top...to THINK that they are happy. It's the opposite system from the Kingdom of God.

2. What kind of people should we be knowing that the end is coming?
The answer Peter gives is: Holy and Godly people.
The new earth is coming and it will be inhabited by the righteous. (where righteousness dwells).

3. We are to be found by Jesus in peace, spotless and blameless.

4. Paul, by the wisdom given to him by the Holy Spirit, or even Jesus Himself, speaks of these very things. (about being holy and righteous).
However, some things Paul writes are difficult to understand....so....

5. The untaught and unstable distort what Paul had said...as they do the rest of scripture.

6. We are to be on our guard against these unprincipled men and may fall from our own steadfastness.


I feel this is what is what is happening these days.



Jesus and Paul had the same teaching. They both taught that we are not to sin. Paul wrote about this in every letter he wrote.
Acts 20:29-32
28“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31“Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
32“And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


Paul himself is warning that after he leaves the church of Ephesus, wolves will come in, some of the saved will speak perverse things and will try to draw us away as disciples of Jesus. Paul commends that church to God and His grace, whose word is able to give us the inheritance among the sanctified.
Sanctified means to be set apart for service to God.

In Acts 24:14 Paul states that he believes everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written by the prophets.
14“But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

In Romans 7:12 Paul states that the Law is holy and good.

In Romans 15:4 Paul tells us that whatever was written in earlier times was done so for our instruction.

Romans 15:31 speaks of Paul being delivered from the disobedient in Judea and in verse 19 he rejoices over the obedience of the Roman Christians.

In Romans 13:8-13 Paul states how Christians should behave. Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, love your neighbor.

1 Corinthians 4:15,,,,Be imitators of Christ, do not be arrogant, do not be immoral, and Paul teaches this in every church. Verse17.


I could list verses in every letter Paul wrote.
He was teaching obedience.
What we don't grasp fully is what he meant by the Law and Grace.

The way I understand it is like this.....
If we live UNDER the law, we must remember everything we must do or not do in order to gain God's favor.
If we live UNDER Grace, then our love for God will allow us to naturally know what would please God.

I don't believe Paul can mean that the Law has been abolished for us but was only trying to explain the difference between being under the law
or not being under the law.

Jesus said that our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees and Scribes.
IOW....we should not worship or obey God only with our hands and feet (by doing)
but with our heart (by loving to do ).

Paul may sound like he has an easier way....
But it is not easier....he's trying to show that love makes it easier, and thus he says we are under grace....under the love of God as we also love Him.

Thank you sister Wondering for your deep insights . Much appreciated as always . I'm out working and hope to reply in next four hours or so , please bear with me Meanwhile I take this opportunity to the owners mods and operators of this website to let me express my thoughts and views, which I always endeavor to back with scripture . Your accommodation and kindness is much appreciated. I raise points that brothers and sisters should have raised years ago. If they had, we would never have this terrible interpretation of " just believe and be saved " being taught by thousands of churches even now as I type this. And this I'd very heartbreaking . Jesus didnt come to die for mankind that it end in this message .... I will be expounding on this later. However I again thank everyone connected with this website to give me a chance to pir my heart out ( backed by abundance of scripture , and that too mostly of Lord God and the Son). So thank you thank you thank you ???

 

[Quantrill]

How did I misquote John 3:36?
Looking forward to your response

John 3: 36 in several different versions


John 3:36 ►


New Living Translation

And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”


English Standard Version

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.



Berean Literal Bible

The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."



New American Standard Bible

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Good News Translation

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.


International Standard Version

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.


A Faithful Version

The one who believes in the Son has everlasting life; but the one who does not obey the Son shall not see life, for the wrath of God remains on him."



Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Whoever is trusting in The Son, has The Eternal Life, and whoever disobeys The Son shall not see The Life, but the anger of God shall abide upon him.”





New American Standard 1977

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


American Standard Version

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Darby Bible Translation

He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.


English Revised Version

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.



Webster's Bible Translation



Weymouth New Testament

He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.

World English Bible
One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Are you really looking forward to my response?

You are attempting to present belief and obedience as opposed to one another. (John 3:36) says no such thing. Just because you find some modern translations that indicate that, means nothing. It shows you reject the KJV. But the KJV has it correctly.

Any 'obedience' indicated is the obedience of faith. Not obedience to some law or some standard you may set. See. (Rom. 1:5) and (16:26). You see? Probably not. You quote and use 'obedience' as a work and reward. But Scripture uses it as 'faith' as a requirement. Faith is the obedience.

The obedience of 'faith'. Not your obedience of works. You and your translations have most certainly misquoted.

Could you pleas answer my other questions. How many books are in your Bible? Is the Bible the written Word of God?

Quantrill

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Are you really looking forward to my response?

You are attempting to present belief and obedience as opposed to one another. (John 3:36) says no such thing. Just because you find some modern translations that indicate that, means nothing. It shows you reject the KJV. But the KJV has it correctly.

Any 'obedience' indicated is the obedience of faith. Not obedience to some law or some standard you may set. See. (Rom. 1:5) and (16:26). You see? Probably not. You quote and use 'obedience' as a work and reward. But Scripture uses it as 'faith' as a requirement. Faith is the obedience.

The obedience of 'faith'. Not your obedience of works. You and your translations have most certainly misquoted.

Could you pleas answer my other questions. How many books are in your Bible? Is the Bible the written Word of God?

Quantrill

Dear Quantrill, the original text of NT was written in the Greek language. In John 3:36 the word used is
apeithōn ( ἀπειθῶν )
which means "To disobey, rebel, be disloyal, refuse conformity."
And therefore several translations have correctly translated it as Diobedience .
As far as Why both, Faith and Obedience, are needed for salvation is very well explained by JLB the administration here. He has written tons of posts on that subject, which includes the Lord's narrated Sheep and Goats future vision of judgment day. I would highly recommend you to study them to understand why both are needed. ?
Here's a strong warning from Christ about need to bear good fruit ( obedience / good works) for any believer :"The axe lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire"
Fruitless believers will be condemned on the last day, warns the Lord

 

[LuciusClay]

Before I’m summarily judged and condemned for writing this piece, I will humbly plead and implore polite and courteous discussions relying on scripture rather than angry judgment, simply because I write in unequivocal terms it was Paul who is the cause of all confusion in the doctrine of Christ in NT.

And this here tends to be the source of so much unnecessary strife in chat forums. Not speaking against your comment,but the ones who always wait to pounce on any little thing with hostile attitudes.

Guys and gals, take a step back before swooping in to strike. In this thread, weve seen rajesh pose a thoughtful question. Everything was worded respectfully and as far Ive seen hes made every effort to maintain that respect while pursuing that end.

Some among us dont seem that concerned with that mutual respect and by outward appearances seem to be content to score points by calling out someone elses theology..while displaying a poor understanding of christian behavior themselves in the manner they deliver their message.

Im not here trying to play hall monitor or good guy, just asking that we keep something in mind. Were all trying to figure out this thing we call life, and quite frankly none of us have all the answers. Some of us do better in certain areas and are weaker where another is strong. The ultimate goal is to break bread with each other after life kicks us to the curb one day. At that point well see that we wont be rewarded for the internet point scoring and will be examined for how we acted during those talks.

Bear in mind that stuff like this is why the Christianity in general continues to lose its appeal to outsiders. If we cant even treat each other right, what person on the outside would want to step in? Just some things to think on.

 

[Quantrill]

Dear Quantrill, the original text of NT was written in the Greek language. In John 3:36 the word used is
apeithōn ( ἀπειθῶν )
which means "To disobey, rebel, be disloyal, refuse conformity."
And therefore several translations have correctly translated it as Diobedience .
As far as Why both, Faith and Obedience, are needed for salvation is very well explained by JLB the administration here. He has written tons of posts on that subject, which includes the Lord's narrated Sheep and Goats future vision of judgment day. I would highly recommend you to study them to understand why both are needed. ?
Here's a strong warning from Christ about need to bear good fruit ( obedience / good works) for any believer :"The axe lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire"
Fruitless believers will be condemned on the last day, warns the Lord

No, it means to 'believe not'.

Strongs, #(544) says, "to disbelieve, not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving". Any disobedience to be identified with that is the disobedience of unbelief. (Rom. 1:5) (16:26)

Same word is used in (Rom. 15:31) "That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea...."

Same word is used in (Heb. 3:18-19) "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Same word is used in (Heb. 11:31) "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not..."

So, you can see especially with (Heb. 3:18-19) that unbelief is the meaning of the word. Scripture is clear.

How many books are in your Bible? Do you consider the Bible the written Word of God.

Quantrill

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

And this here tends to be the source of so much unnecessary strife in chat forums. Not speaking against your comment,but the ones who always wait to pounce on any little thing with hostile attitudes.

Guys and gals, take a step back before swooping in to strike. In this thread, weve seen rajesh pose a thoughtful question. Everything was worded respectfully and as far Ive seen hes made every effort to maintain that respect while pursuing that end.

Some among us dont seem that concerned with that mutual respect and by outward appearances seem to be content to score points by calling out someone elses theology..while displaying a poor understanding of christian behavior themselves in the manner they deliver their message.

Im not here trying to play hall monitor or good guy, just asking that we keep something in mind. Were all trying to figure out this thing we call life, and quite frankly none of us have all the answers. Some of us do better in certain areas and are weaker where another is strong. The ultimate goal is to break bread with each other after life kicks us to the curb one day. At that point well see that we wont be rewarded for the internet point scoring and will be examined for how we acted during those talks.

Bear in mind that stuff like this is why the Christianity in general continues to lose its appeal to outsiders. If we cant even treat each other right, what person on the outside would want to step in? Just some things to think on.

Thank you Lucius for those words of kindness. It's much appreciated and was much needed. I've contributed hundreds of posts here . All of them point at Jesus. Consistently I endeavor to share His words. If I respect others it's because I learned from Jesus the entire message of Bible lay contained in one Word ....LOVE. Love God. Love the neighbor .Love each other. Love even the enemy and persecutors. Because these teachings have gone so deep in my heart and soul, I do not get stirred up easily. But I do get hurt when I get attacked, but I wish to respond in love. Else how will all this madness of hate and strife and revenge stop ? Plus I must bear in mind I'm talking about a topic which will anger some, and I have to bear the consequences if I choose to contend for the gospel. But thank you again for your kind words of kindness . Much appreciated ?
( in my next reply, which will be my last for the evening , and for a period of time, I'm quoting several verses of love , that Jesus Christ taught us. After much sifting the Word, my take of the message was We were sent on earth to learn to turn away from Sin and turn to righteousness, practising ( consistently ) Loving compassion as the Lord taught.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

No, it means to 'believe not'.

Strongs, #(544) says, "to disbelieve, not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving". Any disobedience to be identified with that is the disobedience of unbelief. (Rom. 1:5) (16:26)

Same word is used in (Rom. 15:31) "That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea...."

Same word is used in (Heb. 3:18-19) "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Same word is used in (Heb. 11:31) "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not..."

So, you can see especially with (Heb. 3:18-19) that unbelief is the meaning of the word. Scripture is clear.

How many books are in your Bible? Do you consider the Bible the written Word of God.

Quantrill

So in your opinion Strong's translation is right and the ten world renowned versions translations are wrong ?
If that is your opinion, let us agree to disagree.
Here is some stuff that may pique your curiosity and perhaps motivate you to explore more about the Version you are exclusively relying on . I personally read from Bible hub which provides several translations which help me understand better what a verse is saying .
Anyways here is some stuff about KJV and NASB:


The King James Version (KJV) was published in 1611 at the behest of King James I of England.
As king, James was also the head of the Church of England, and he had to approve of the new English translation of the Bible, which was also dedicated to him.
James didn’t write it, who did? To begin with, there’s no single author. One individual—Richard Bancroft, the archbishop of Canterbury—was notable for having the role of overseer of the project, something akin to a modern editor of a collection of short stories. The actual translating (writing) of the KJV was done by a committee of 47 scholars and clergymen over the course of many years.


NASB
The New American Standard Bible is considered by some sources as the most literally translated of major 20th-century English Bible translations. According to the NASB's preface, the translators had a "Fourfold Aim" in this work:

These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

They shall be grammatically correct.

They shall be understandable.

They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; therefore, no work will ever be personalized.

The NASB is an original translation from the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts, based on the same principles of translation, and wording, as the American Standard Version (ASV) of 1901. It offers an alternative to the Revised Standard Version (1946–1952/1971), which is considered by some to be theologically liberal, and also to the 1929 revision of the ASV.
The Hebrew text used for this translation was the third edition of Rudolf Kittel's Biblia Hebraica as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia was consulted for the 1995 revision. For Greek, Eberhard Nestle's Novum Testamentum Graece was used; the 23rd edition in the 1971 original,[9] and the 26th in the 1995 revision.
The Open Bible edition of the New American Standard Bible in the Church of Saint Mary, an Episcopal Church in Sagada, Mountain Province, the Philippines.

Seeing the need for a literal, modern translation of the English Bible, the translators sought to produce a contemporary English Bible while maintaining a word-for-word translation style. In cases where word-for-word literalness was determined to be unacceptable for modern readers, changes were made in the direction of more current idioms. In some such instances, the more literal renderings were indicated in footnotes.
The greatest strength of the NASB is its reliability and fidelity to the original languages

Now you know why there are many other versions. Because they likely feared if King James fiddled with some portions (verses) of the Bible or this dude Bancroft , who was the overseer of the project messed, the Churches would end up studying the King's or Bancroft's words rather than God's words! So to make sure that didn't happen they did their own research and used the evidence they had and made Bible versions which had no monarch or his archbishop in its creation.
I wish you good luck on your absolute reliance on King James Version and rejection of ten other versions.

To your repeated question how many books my Bible has. Answer is 66. But I choose not to read 13 of them. Got the answer you were looking for?

 

[JLB]

And this here tends to be the source of so much unnecessary strife in chat forums. Not speaking against your comment,but the ones who always wait to pounce on any little thing with hostile attitudes.

Guys and gals, take a step back before swooping in to strike. In this thread, weve seen rajesh pose a thoughtful question. Everything was worded respectfully and as far Ive seen hes made every effort to maintain that respect while pursuing that end.

Some among us dont seem that concerned with that mutual respect and by outward appearances seem to be content to score points by calling out someone elses theology..while displaying a poor understanding of christian behavior themselves in the manner they deliver their message.

Im not here trying to play hall monitor or good guy, just asking that we keep something in mind. Were all trying to figure out this thing we call life, and quite frankly none of us have all the answers. Some of us do better in certain areas and are weaker where another is strong. The ultimate goal is to break bread with each other after life kicks us to the curb one day. At that point well see that we wont be rewarded for the internet point scoring and will be examined for how we acted during those talks.

Bear in mind that stuff like this is why the Christianity in general continues to lose its appeal to outsiders. If we cant even treat each other right, what person on the outside would want to step in? Just some things to think on.

Well said. :nod

 

[JLB]

No, it means to 'believe not'.

Strongs, #(544) says, "to disbelieve, not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving". Any disobedience to be identified with that is the disobedience of unbelief. (Rom. 1:5) (16:26)

Same word is used in (Rom. 15:31) "That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea...."

Same word is used in (Heb. 3:18-19) "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Same word is used in (Heb. 11:31) "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not..."

So, you can see especially with (Heb. 3:18-19) that unbelief is the meaning of the word. Scripture is clear.

How many books are in your Bible? Do you consider the Bible the written Word of God.

Quantrill

So you agree that unbelief and disobedience are used interchangeably?


IOW, if we believe the Gospel, yet do not obey it, we won’t be saved.


Believing n the Lord, without obeying Him as Lord is “demonic believing” and is useless.




JLB