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elijah23
Guest
The wise listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit and are led be that voice.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
The wise listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit and are led be that voice.
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elijah23
Guest
I try to do as the Holy Spirit directs me to do.
jasoncran
Member
write any new book of the bible and also have such vision of the end times of the gentiles to include the jews of today that havent repented lately?
sir the bible is amazing and how it doenst contradict itself is an utter testament of god.
jesus since you claim to follow him and not pauline teachings said we ought to obey them that sit in moses seat.
he also never said that the gentiles were exempt from that nor under it , so you are way out there.
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elijah23
Guest
It is good to learn to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit.
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elijah23
Guest
If follow Jesus Christ, or at least try to.
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elijah23
Guest
Whenever we commit a selfish act, we experience the unpleasant consequences. It is for our own good. You can call that “law,†if you wish, or call it whatever you want.
jasoncran
Member
when we do things right for the lord we can expercience pain. you give false hope
hear is a family that choose not to abort their kid and knew that he would die. its painful for them but they feel at peace at their decision.
http://www.anencephaly.net/mary.html
i wouldnt call that a peaceful expercience but they didnt sin at all.
hear is a family that choose not to abort their kid and knew that he would die. its painful for them but they feel at peace at their decision.
http://www.anencephaly.net/mary.html
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial][SIZE=+0]In Loving Memory of
[/SIZE][SIZE=+4]Mary Elizabeth Karg
[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]September 3, 1998 - September 4, 1998
[/SIZE][/FONT]
Our Story
We were excited when we found out about Patricia being pregnant again - we had had a miscarriage during a prior pregnancy. We were also in the midst of raising Joshua, a strong willed two year old. Since Joshua was taken via c-section at 37 weeks due to Patricia's toxemia and also because of the miscarriage, Patricia was watched by her doctor very carefully. We were able to agree on names for the baby early - Christopher Thomas or Mary Elizabeth.
The baby was due on September 9, 1998. About 18 weeks into the pregnancy, the doctor did an AFP test, and the result came back abnormal. The doctor explained that there are two reasons for this. Either the due date is miscalculated or the baby could have a neural tube defect. She sent us to have an ultrasound to verify the due date.
The ultrasound took place on April 15, 1998. I went with Patricia and Joshua, and we looked forward to early glimpses of our baby. Patricia wanted to know the babies sex, but I did not. However, we were not expecting the doctor to inform us that the baby had anencephaly. It was quite a shock.
We asked the doctor what to do next. He said that most people terminate the pregnancy, because they consider the baby to be non-viable. However, we knew that there was a life in there, and knew that we should give her every chance to live. When we discussed this with our doctor, she agreed and also arranged for a second ultrasound.
Before the second ultrasound, we began researching anencephaly and neural tube defects, and praying that the first ultrasound was wrong. The internet served as a very useful tool for doing research. By the time the second ultrasound rolled around, we were knowledgeable about the subject. However, the second ultrasound revealed nothing new - the baby's brain had not formed. We still prayed for a miracle. The ultra sound did reveal that the baby was a girl. We could now pray for our Mary Elizabeth.
After the second ultrasound, our doctor informed us of our options, and we told her that we would continue the pregnancy to term. Our doctor told us that she would treat the pregnancy as a normal pregnancy, and would provide us with normal care, so that we would not feel different.
We spent quite a few nights and weekends studying about anencephaly, and eventually found grief and support group information. Patricia also found several people via the internet that had had an anencephalic child, and began corresponding with them. The site that had the most helpful information was the Anencephaly Support Foundation, which contained information, personal stories, and medical articles about the neural-tube defect of anencephaly. It also helped us prepare for the eventual day when Mary Elizabeth would be born.
We packed a suitcase with our camera, extra film, our camcorder, extra tapes, a plaster hand print kit, some baby outfits, a doll, a baby book, and a bible. Patricia also packed a suitcase for herself. Twice prior to delivery Patricia started to feel bad, and as a precaution, the doctor sent us to the emergency room for observation. We were able to get familiar with the hospital. Three weeks prior to full term, after the second visit to the emergency room, Patricia was placed on bed rest. Her mother came from nearby Alabama to help around the house.
The next checkup at the doctor's office at two weeks prior to term, the baby was monitored by ultrasound. It was discovered then that the baby was breech. The doctor set up a c-section for the following week, 1 week prior to full term. Another ultrasound at 2 days prior to the c-section showed no change in the baby's presentation. We showed up at the hospital on Thursday morning, September 3, 1998, ready for the c-section.
Mary Elizabeth was born at 9:49 a.m., and struggled to breath. As she lay in the warmer with doctors hovering over her, she cried out, and started to breath. The neonatologist didn't think she would make it very long, so I picked her up and carried her to Patricia. Patricia was still finishing surgery, but held her next to her face. G. K. Abner, the pastor of Patricia's mom's church, gave us a blessing together, and then we took Mary Elizabeth to the special care nursery. We took a few pictures as they began to clean her up, and the nurse told me I could come back in about 30 minutes, when they were finished.
I went back up to the waiting room, and found Joshua, Patricia's family, G. K. Abner, and Fr. Gordy. I started to tell Joshua about his sister, and broke down into tears. I showed him the Polaroid photo of her, and explained that her head was broken. It was very difficult. I then went to find Patricia, and she was still in the operating room. I went in and told her how things were going, and helped take her to the recovery room. I then called my mom and dad to let them know about our baby.
While waiting in the recovery room, the special care nurse brought Mary Elizabeth to us. She was dressed in a beautiful blue dress, and had a bandage on her head. Patricia held her, and Fr. Gordy baptized her in a very touching ceremony. We took a family picture. After taking our belongings to our room, I went to the special care nursery where I spent most of the day with her. Patricia joined me as soon as she was released from the recovery room.
Mary Elizabeth was normal except for the top of her head. She even had hair at the base of her head! She was very active, and held onto our fingers immediately. She liked being held, and opened only one of her eyes. She would jump at loud sounds, and would often root when hungry. The nurse had placed a feeding tube in her to feed her, and she was fed at regular intervals. We signed a DNR order, but requested that she be kept comfortable and fed.
During the day, Joshua came to visit her, and sang her a song. It went, "Hush little baby don't say a word. Mommy's gonna buy you a mockingbird." Joshua finished it out with, "If that diamond ring won't shine, mommy's gonna buy you a model train!" Joshua had picked out a doll for her, and it stayed in her bassinet.
I had to leave her at 6:30 p.m. for shift change, and I laid her in the bassinet. The nurse suggested I lay her on her belly. I did, and she started snoring very loudly. I was alarmed at first, but realized she was only taking after me.
We took a break to sleep that night, but were called back at 1:00 a.m. when her vital signs began dropping. When we showed up and began holding her, her vital signs improved. We stayed for several more hours before going back to get a couple of hours of sleep. I went back to visit her prior to the 6:30 a.m. shift change, and ate breakfast during the shift change. Patricia and I spent the morning with her, but noticed that she wasn't responding as well as the first day. At about 1:00 p.m., her vitals started dipping, and we took her to a private parenting room, next to the nursery.
We spent the next 6 hours watching her struggle and fight to stay alive. During this time, she would stop breathing, and then seize, and begin breathing again. She did this about 5 times, each time getting weaker. At about 7:30 p.m., she stopped breathing, and died in Patricia's arms. During this time the hospital chaplain, a local priest, and a deacon from our parish were by our side.
Deacon Jack stayed with us after she died. We bathed her and dressed her while we waited for the funeral home to arrive. We said good-bye at about 10:00 p.m., and went back to our room. The following day was spent arranging the funeral, and notifying other friends and family who weren't called the night before. Patricia was released from the hospital on Saturday, and we went home. My parents had arrived at our house from traveling all night, and were saddened to hear the news.
Sunday morning, I played guitar and led the singing at the 8:00 a.m. mass. It was very difficult, but I managed to get through the music. Friends brought food for us to eat during the day. The visitation and wake service were held that evening. Deacon Jack led the service. The following morning we had the funeral mass at St. Pius X, and had the burial the following day in Alabama. Joshua found a couple of stones during the grave side service, and placed them in the casket with her. We had placed a rosary (a gift from my mom), a small white bible, a guardian angel pin that Patricia had worn during her pregnancy, a stuffed angel bear from Aunt Denise, a porcelain angel from Patricia's Aunt Marie, and a family photo in the casket with her.
We gave Mary Elizabeth's doll to Joshua, and he named it Mary Elizabeth. It has been a great comfort to him.
Steve has done a great job recounting the memories of our experience with our beautiful Mary Elizabeth. I would like to share with you some of my thoughts and feelings now.
I feel very blessed to be Mary Elizabeth's mother. I always knew that my baby needed me to protect her and to be her voice from the time that she was conceived. I am so very thankful that I was able to hold her and see her beautiful face. The 34 hours that we had with her will forever be etched in my mind as a very special time with a very special little girl. I know that my daughter is safe and is in heaven now. I miss her terribly and would give anything to have her here with me. I feel comfort in knowing that one day I will hold her again in heaven. Mary Elizabeth taught me so much about love, being humble, and thankful in all things.
Update!
Patricia began taking folic acid after Mary Elizabeth's birth, and became pregnant in the spring of 1999. Patricia gave birth to a baby girl, Anna Rose Karg, on December 23, 1999. Anna is healthy and well, and had no defects other than a tiny VSD causing a heart murmur, which closed by itself when she was 2 months old. Four years later Patricia gave birth to a baby boy, Christopher. Christopher was born with a cleft palate which was corrected with surgery
i wouldnt call that a peaceful expercience but they didnt sin at all.
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elijah23
Guest
The hope is not false. The Lord can always remove our suffering. Do you have faith? I’m not saying life isn’t challenging, even for a repentant person, but it is minute compared to the unrepentant sinner.
jasoncran
Member
false hope in that we wont suffer.
compare that to the mother who grieves for that child. my wife lost her first son in a misscarriage and she still mourns 35 years later.
dont tell me that the mother doesnt feel that loss daily and has to remind herself that god is in control and hasnt had anger at god at times.
in my own life as afghanistan vet my faith has taken a hit. i have issues with the vanity of this life and how much a vapor it is and how god seems to allow suffering, yet its his promise of judgment and mercy that keeps it together.
i can let the morbid humour come out and also how i can easily let the callousness that has formed rule me.
i knew a man who killed himself the same day i last talked to him and i wonder what i could have done to save him. i wasnt there but he was one my soldiers. i feel that i failed him.
i have had thoughts of ending it. i understand why he did it.so dont tell me that this walk is a cake walk when it hurts to see men die for what seems to be vanity or when you loose kids in car wrecks or diseases.
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elijah23
Guest
We don’t suffer if we repent of our sin. Nothing bothers a repentant person—not even death or persecution.
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elijah23
Guest
When our loved ones die, they pass on to the resurrection. They are in a better place.
jasoncran
Member
so that easy when you miss them at night., you wished you could have said more.
i know that is a promise and i believe it but ask any christian who lost a friend in christ or family in christ. they miss them,
we have emotions.
god told me its ok to cry. man.we arent robots. pain is for our good. it sucks but man we grow. i hate to feel emotions but i must let them flow. im made that way.
trust me if jen was here she would tell you that i dont like emotions. i prefer to control those things like a spicket. feel what i want and when i want.
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elijah23
Guest
What helps me avoid loneliness is my church.
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elijah23
Guest
I cry on occasion.
What kind of suffering are you referring to?
The death of a loved one does affect us emotionally and we suffer as a result of the sense of loss in our lives. How does sin play a role in this suffering?
There are multiple accounts recorded in scripture where Jesus wept when loved ones died. He suffered great anguish at his pending fate even to the point of sweating "as it were great drops of blood." Luke 22:44 KJV I read this and hear great suffering and he had no sin to repent from.
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elijah23
Guest
Our loved ones pass from this world to the resurrection. It is sad but we learn to fill the emptiness with new friends. They are in a better place and soon we will join them. I don't count that as suffering. A church can be very helpful in filling the emptiness caused by the loss of a loved one. It has been a huge help for me.
Jethro Bodine
Member
There's no doubt they are in a better place, but the resurrection does not occur until the second coming of Christ when all of God's people will be resurrected together:
"...in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23 NIV1984)
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thess. 4:16-17 NIV1984)
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elijah23
Guest
No, I think the resurrection is probably already in progress, but even if it isn't, it doesn't change anything.
Mike
Member
Elijah, a few questions for you.
When we anguish, is that suffering?
Did Christ sin?
Assuming not, did He anguish outside Lazarus' tomb and in the Garden? Why didn't He simply smile it off?
As Christ said, we will have trouble, and these are not always brought on by our own sin but the condition of our world. You claim we will not have trouble if we do not sin; that we will rise above everything that comes our way.
Though we all sin at times, suffering can come from internal and external sin.
When we anguish, is that suffering?
Did Christ sin?
Assuming not, did He anguish outside Lazarus' tomb and in the Garden? Why didn't He simply smile it off?
As Christ said, we will have trouble, and these are not always brought on by our own sin but the condition of our world. You claim we will not have trouble if we do not sin; that we will rise above everything that comes our way.
Though we all sin at times, suffering can come from internal and external sin.
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elijah23
Guest
I think “anguish†covers a broad range of things.
If someone hits me over the head with a baseball bat, it will hurt. Of course, such occurrences are rare. Anyway, I probably would recover, and meanwhile a doctor would give me pills to make the pain go away. If I die from the wound, I pass on to the resurrection—who can complain of that?
If I lose a loved one, I can become sad and lonely, but because I belong to a loving church, the loneliness isn’t severe.
If I have a child that gets into trouble, I would be unhappy about that, but a person, through their church, should have many friends, and the unfortunate decisions made by a single family member shouldn’t devastate us to the point of severe anguish.
I could go on and on with examples of anguish. These were the first three that came to mind.