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Women and their role in the church

If God didn't mean for Mat 5:37 to be understood literally HOW should He have worded it differently?

The reply looks very shallow at first glance. My point is we should look at or understand Scripture equally.

John 3 16 is most beloved but it is not MORE scriptural than Mat 5:37 or 1 Cor 14:43


Women can not sing although God gives the talent

Women can not teach Sunday School

Women can not offer praise report

Women can not publicly ask for prayer.

I guess if a woman saw a fire in the corner she should be silent. IF God wanted any one to be warned a man would see it..

I dont think the literal view is a good one....

I think Handy nailed the role of women in the church.
 
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Hi the Lords

Misogyny is distrust and hatred for women. Christianity, the NT, exalts women to their higihest of anything else the world has ever known, yet I Cor.14:34,35 continues to read "let your women keep silence in the churches" and "for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Consider please Who inspired Paul to write this.

Keeping in mind all else that Paul wrote regarding women as well as what the Bible records elsewhere as well...

I repeat, because it bears repeating, the daughter of Philip were prophets...little hard to keep silent while exercising that Godly gift.


Reba said:
I think Handy nailed the role of women in the church.

Thanks Reba...it's been a long study for me...God has brought me a long way through this subject.
 
Hi Handy

Thank you for your interest in the work of the Lord. Yes, Phillip's daughters did prophesy but apparently not in the assembly if I Cor. 14:34,35 is accepted to be obeyed.
 
These comments by another poster bear repeating:


Part One of Two...


Dear CF,

Here is a sampling of the common male attitude
toward women over the millennia...

"Whoever teaches his daughter the Torah is like one
who teaches her obscenity. Rather should the words
of the Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman."
Ancient Rabbi


"It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard
among men."
Ancient Rabbi


"The woman is in all things inferior to the man. Let her be accordingly submissive."
Josephus - Historian


"All females, both animal and human, are inferior
to males. We should look upon the female as a
deformity in nature."
Aristotle - Philosopher


"Woman is defective and misbegotten. For
the active power in the male seed produces
a perfect male likeness. A female comes from a
defect in the male seed or from some indisposition
such as the south wind being too moist."
Thomas Aquinas - Church father

"God's sentence hangs over the female sex,
and His punishment weighs down upon you.
You are the devil's gateway. You first violated
the forbidden tree and broke God's law. You
shattered God's image in man, and because
you merited death, you had to die."
Tertullian - Church Father

"It brings man shame even to reflect on
woman's nature. By no means shall
women exhibit any part of their person
lest men become excited and look and fall."
Clement - Church Father

"It is part of her punishment and a part
from which even God's mercy will
not exempt her. Subjection to the will of her
husband is part of her curse."
Clement - Church Father

"Take women from their housewifery and they
are good for nothing."
Martin Luther

"Women have narrow shoulders and broad hips
to sit upon, so they ought to stay home,
keep the house, bear and raise children. The
woman differs from the man; she is weaker in
body, in honor, in intellect and in dignity."
Martin Luther

"If a woman take upon her any office which
God assigned to man, she shall not escape being
cursed. Women are weak, they are frail, they are
impatient and feeble and foolish. They are
inconstant. They are changeable, they are cruel.
They lack spirit and counsel. Woman in her
greatest perfection was made to serve and
only obey men."
John Knox

"One hundred women are not worth a single
testicle."
Confucius (551-479 BCE)

"The five worst infirmities that afflict the
female are indocility, discontent, slander, jealousy,
and silliness... Such is the stupidity of woman's
character, that it is incumbent upon her, in every
particular, to distrust herself and to obey her husband."
The Confucian Marriage Manual

"A proper wife should be as obedient as a slave."
and "The female is a female by virtue of a certain
lack of qualities - a natural defectiveness."
Aristotle (384-322 BCE)

"In childhood a woman must be subject to her father;
in youth to her husband; when her husband is dead,
to her sons. A woman must never be free of subjugation."
The Hindu Code of Manu (c. 100 CE)

"Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman."
St. John Chrysostom (345-407 CE)

"Men are superior to women."
The Koran (c. 650)

(End of Part one of two)
 
Part Two:

Part two of two

"Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot
give birth to as many children as she is capable of,
makes herself guilty of that many murders."
St. Augustine (354-430 CE)

"Do you know that each of your women is an Eve?
The sentence of God - on this sex of yours - lives
in this age; the guilt must necessarily live, too. You
are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the
orbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the
divine law."
Tertullian in 22 CE

"Woman in her greatest perfection was made to
serve and obey man, not rule and command him."
John Knox (1505-1572)

"The souls of women are so small that some
believe they've none at all."
Samuel Butler (1612-1680)

"What a misfortune to be a woman! And yet,
the worst misfortune is not to understand
what a misfortune it is".
Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

"It seems to me that nearly every woman I know
wants a man who knows how to love with authority.
Women are simple souls who like simple things, and
one of the simplest is one of the simplest to give...
Our family Airedale will come clear across the yard
for one pat on the head. The average wife is like that.
She will come across town, across the house, across
to your point of view, and across almost anything to
give you her love if you offer her yours with some
honest approval."
Episcopal Bishop James Pike in a letter to his son (1968)

"Let us set our women folk on the road to goodness
by teaching them to display submissiveness." "Every
woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the
thought that she is a woman."
St. Clement of Alexandria in 96 CE

In the year 584 CE, in Lyons, France, forty-three
Catholic bishops and twenty men representing other
bishops, held a most peculiar debate: "Are Women
Human?" After many lengthy arguments, a vote was
taken. The results were: thirty-two, yes; thirty-one, no.
Women were declared human by one vote!
Council of Macon

"Blessed art thou, O Lord our God and King of the
Universe, that thou didst not create me a woman."
Daily prayer, still in use, of the orthodox Jewish male

"Woman should remain at home, sit still, keep house,
and bear and bring up children." and "If a woman grows
weary and, at last, dies from child bearing, it matters not.
Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it."
Martin Luther (1483-1546)



With this kind of really negative attitude among the male population over the Millennia Is it really difficult to believe that the historical record of women's participation in the leadership of the Church has mostly been expunged by the "Selective memory," of the male scribes of that day. Jesus and Paul lived in a culture of male domination. This practice followed into the Church after Pentecost although some women were leaders in the synagogues in that day. A lot of Christian women were poor, but some were also wealthy: like Lydia. Women were managing their own households, which often had a lot going on like maintenance of property, running a business, managing a family along with its many responsibilities and supervision of slaves in some cases. The women greatly served the early believers by simply extended their homes in order to host the Church, which met in homes during the first and second centuries.


During the third and forth centuries as the church slowly became institutionalized, the women were displaced - then the leadership became masculine dominated. This is also the crowd who eradicated almost all traces of women in leadership from the written records. There were women in leadership before the purge took place. The best example extant is Junia mentioned by St. Paul as an Apostle. Translators “Corrected†the female name to that of Junias - the male form. There is no historical male name “Junias.“ The evidence of early Female leadership remains mostly in the fraises, mosaics, and grave markings in places like the catacombs.


Another example: There is a mosaic in a Basilica that depicts four women, Mary the mother of Jesus, Prudentiana, Praxedis, and a forth woman whose name was Theodora Episcopa - Bishop Theodora. Episcopus is the male form and episcopa is the female. It is also noteworthy that the ending letter of the word episcopa in the mosaic was partially defaced - I wonder why? As a side note, the image of Theodora had a square halo instead of a round one like the other three women, which symbolically indicated that she was still alive when the mosaic was made.


And there are more examples. I find the book “When Women were Priests†very informative as to the history of female leadership. Highly recommended.
 
Part Three:


Our negative attitude toward women in the Church comes from two hard to understand passages from St. Paul. After much reading on the subject I have concluded that in both cases he was addressing local errors in the Church and was not making a general statement for all time. Here is the first of the two questionable passages.

(Read in a mocking, sarcastic voice.)
1 Cor. 14:34-37 (KJV) [34] “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.†[35] “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.â€

The passage then continues… Loudly...and in a rage...
[36] What?came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

In 34 & 35 St. Paul is quoting the words of someone in the Church probably a "Judiazer," someone from the Circumcision Party, who opposed Paul at every turn - who in judging from the text - considered himself a prophet in that local body. In vs. 36 & 37 Paul is giving an angry response in opposition to the outrageous quote of 34 & 35. Obviously he limited his comments probably because he only wanted to correct this person - not destroy him.

The following is a quote from Dr. John Gustavson.
"Professor Sir William Ramsey, the most widely accepted authority on St. Paul in the early 1900's says "we should be ready to suspect Paul is making a quotation from the letter addressed to him by the Corinthians whenever he alludes to their knowledge, or when any statement stands in marked contrast either with the immediate context or with Paul's known views."Considering Paul's views on the ministries of Priscilla, Phoebe and others referred to earlier, it is clear that Paul believed in equality of women in ministry.

Moreover, ICor 14:34,35, if taken totally literally, cannot refer to the Old Testament Scriptures when speaking of the Law for there is not one trace from Genesis to Malachi of any such prohibition of women to literally keep silent in the church nor is there a single word in the whole "law of Moses" dealing with the subject. Therefore the words, "it is not permitted" and "as also saith the Law" roust refer to some "rule outside of Scripture." There was no other but the Oral Law of the Jews appealed to by the Judaizers in the church in their efforts at that time to bring Christianity back within the confines of Judaism.

The Jewish Oral Law did teach the silencing of women. The Talmud also taught that it was "a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men". However, the Oral Law of the Jews is not Scripture. Again, the reference to the "law" is, of itself, sufficient to show that the Apostle who labored so earnestly to free the Christian Church from the very shadow of Judaism was not expressing his own conviction in the language attributed to him. Paul never appealed to the "law" for the guidance of the Church of Christ, but, on the contrary, declared that believers were dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Ro 7:4) that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (v.6).)"

Some translations like the KJV and the Amplified Bible insert the word What! at the beginning of vs. 36. What is the "what" there for? This is an expression of outrage at the previous verses or quotations (33-35). Verses 36 - 37 should be read with an element of anger. Verse 37 continues where he is upbrading someone who thought themselves to be a Prophet in the Church. Obviously the person he quoted in vs. 33-35. As Ramsey suggests, 1CO was probably written in response to a letter sent to him by the Corinthians.

In summary, because the quote was given in a Sarcastic tone, it simply means that the exact opposite was true because he was mimicking them and not making a statement.

The ancient Greek did not have quotation marks. I added them to Paul's quotes in vs 34 -35.
 
Part Four:


1 Tim. 2:12-15 (KJV)
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Frank Viola in his book titled, “The untold story of the New Testament Church'†tells of the historical situation in Ephesus where Timothy was assigned. I have edited down his comments to just those of women's issues – they were very severe.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Timothy and Paul were dealing with a kind of pre-Gnostic heresy that had come into the church via the male teachers. According to gnosticism, full salvation comes through special knowledge – gnosis – that only the initiated possess. In Ephesus this is what they were teaching...[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Eve is both a mediator and redeemer figure who preexisted Adam.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Man came into existence because of a woman, and he was given enlightenment through the woman. Since Eve was the first to take a bite from the Tree of Knowledge, she is the bearer of special spiritual knowledge (called gnosis).[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Women are called to lead people to the illuminating gnosis, which was represented by the Tree of Knowledge. Redemption completely reversed the effects of the fall so that men are no longer subject to earthly authorities and women are no longer subject to their husbands. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Those accepting this heresy preferred the leadership of women over men. Male teachers were the first to spread this heresy in Ephesus. But it finds fertile ground among the women in the Church. Remember that the first and second century Churches were home cell groups. It was impossible to address the Church all at one time. Actually women who had opened their homes to the Church had a lot of control over the cell groups in that day. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The homes of the Ephesian women provide a network by which the heresy is spread rapidly through gossip, Some of the women are teaching the heresy in the Church meetings and are lording it over (dominating) the men. They have also accepted the ideals of the “new woman†[which was the Roman equivalent of “womens lib.â€] They are dressing in an immodest and exploitive way (like that of prostitutes) and are defying other accepted norms regarding marriage and family. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]There is also a problem with respect to how the widows are being cared for in the Church. Some of the widows have adopted the heresy and others have family members who are able to care for them. Still worse, some of the younger widows who decided not to remarry are acting promiscuously.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Consequently, Timothy wants to know which widows the Church ought to be responsible for. Paul wants to go back to Ephesus – but he cannot – he writes the pastoral epistle of 1 Timothy to address all these problems of which this post has not recorded all of them. In any case the situation with the women in particular was very grave and out of control.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Any one doing an in depth study of this topic may want to read the book "I suffer not a woman". It has good historic background and a thorough look at the passage of 1Timothy 2:11 15.The authors are Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]One of the difficulties with the interpretation of the afore mentioned scripture is the Greek word "Authentein" (To dominate or rule over). It is only used once in the Bible so there is no frame of reference for this word inside of scripture. Words change in meaning over the years and this is a point in Kroger's book. They believe -as does Viola - that this passage was written in answer to heretical Gnostic error, which was invading the Church. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Here is an edited commentary based on Kroegers Book.[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In light of the authentic meaning of the word "authentein" and of the social context within which Paul wrote his letters to Timothy, let me offer what I believe is an appropriate rendering of the text in Timothy. I believe Paul is saying, "I am not allowing (present tense for that situation) a woman to teach or to proclaim herself the originator of man (authentein)." Do you see how this translation offsets false doctrine?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word that is frequently translated "silence," "hesuchia", also means harmony, peace, conformity or agreement. I therefore suggest Paul goes on to say, "she must be in agreement," meaning agreement with the scriptures and with sound teaching in the Church.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He continues in this vein saying, "Adam was formed first then Eve." This statement militates against the doctrine of Eve as progenitor. He also says "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was! And sinned!" This statement directly contradicts the notion that Eve was the "illuminator," and carrier of new revelation (gnosis).[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This translation is the most legitimate because it fits the social context, is true to the Greek, speaks to the troubled situation, and lines up perfectly with all of Paul's other teachings and practices concerning women.†[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Conclusion: Paul was addressing this gnostic heresy in the Ephesian Church and if you take it literally - as a lot of people do - it suppresses women unjustly and out of the exclusive context of the Ephesian situation in Paul's day. It is also contradictory to the attitude of Paul throughout his days of ministry as he always saw women as his co-laborers in the Lord.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]A closing thought: Dr. Paul Yonggi Cho is the pastor of the largest church in the world. He said that his ministry would not be what it is today were it not for his mother-in-law and for women who were willing to pastor the many cell groups of which his church consists. He claims that 6,000 women were leading cell groups before he found the first man who was willing to do the task.[/FONT]

Women are not second class Christians. Why would anyone want to suppress over half of the Christian community?
Larry
 
Hi Handy

Thank you for your interest in the work of the Lord. Yes, Phillip's daughters did prophesy but apparently not in the assembly if I Cor. 14:34,35 is accepted to be obeyed.

There you go Webb. I hope you take the time to read the entire message, but if not, take a look at this:

Moreover, ICor 14:34,35, if taken totally literally, cannot refer to the Old Testament Scriptures when speaking of the Law for there is not one trace from Genesis to Malachi of any such prohibition of women to literally keep silent in the church nor is there a single word in the whole "law of Moses" dealing with the subject. Therefore the words, "it is not permitted" and "as also saith the Law" roust refer to some "rule outside of Scripture." There was no other but the Oral Law of the Jews appealed to by the Judaizers in the church in their efforts at that time to bring Christianity back within the confines of Judaism.

The Jewish Oral Law did teach the silencing of women. The Talmud also taught that it was "a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men". However, the Oral Law of the Jews is not Scripture.
 
It matters not what Jasher, Martin Luther or ANY other uninspired man says, its what the Bible teaches, for that is the word by which we will be judged.

Now briefly look at this matter of "law" in I Cor.14:34,35. Note the words "obedience, as also saith the law." One translation uses the word "subjection". In the very begining of the human race God said to Eve: "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." There you have it, obedience, subjection, taught under the law. What law? Why God's of course. He was speaking, not Jasher or any of the uninspired writers quoted. Even before Eve was created she was designated by God to be a "help" mate for man. The above references may be easily found in Gen.2:18 and Gen.3:16. God still means what He says in I Cor.14, etc.
 
When i read how Jesus treated the women around Him i am blessed....
 
It matters not what Jasher, Martin Luther or ANY other uninspired man says, its what the Bible teaches, for that is the word by which we will be judged.

Now briefly look at this matter of "law" in I Cor.14:34,35. Note the words "obedience, as also saith the law." One translation uses the word "subjection". In the very begining of the human race God said to Eve: "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." There you have it, obedience, subjection, taught under the law. What law? Why God's of course. He was speaking, not Jasher or any of the uninspired writers quoted. Even before Eve was created she was designated by God to be a "help" mate for man. The above references may be easily found in Gen.2:18 and Gen.3:16. God still means what He says in I Cor.14, etc.

You're rationalizing this because you refuse to truly look at what Scripture says. God's law that is referred to in the NT is thee Law, as in Mosiac Law. Those verses in Genesis are not a law. Uninspired men developed the same doctrine you grip tightly with both hands. (BTW- "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." this was a curse as a result of sin that came down on humanity, and as I recall, Christ has redeemed us from the curse of sin).

The NIV, capitalizes the word Law. Don't like the NIV? The ESV does the same thing, as does the NASB. The NLT, KJV, AKJV, ASV, the Bible in Basic English, etc, follow the same line of reasoning as the NIV, ESV, and NASB. Further, the ISV explicitly states: "oral law" and the GOD's Word Translation states: "Moses' teachings."

So, please, show where in the entirety of Old Testament Scripture that God said "Women are not allowed to speak"? You won't be able to, but you will find that rule in the Talmud, the Oral Law of the Jews. You know what, if you want to revere the Talmud higher than the Biblia of God, you go on ahead and do just that.

1 Corinthians 14:34 said:
New International Version (©1984)
women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.

English Standard Version (©2001)
the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

International Standard Version (©2008)
the women must keep silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak out, but must place themselves in submission, as the oral law also says.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
the women must keep silent. They don't have the right to speak. They must take their place as Moses' Teachings say.

King James Bible
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

American King James Version
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted to them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also said the law.

American Standard Version
let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

Bible in Basic English
Let women keep quiet in the churches: for it is not right for them to be talking; but let them be under control, as it says in the law.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith.

Darby Bible Translation
Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection, as the law also says.

English Revised Version
Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

Webster's Bible Translation
Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Weymouth New Testament
Let married women be silent in the Churches, for they are not permitted to speak. They must be content with a subordinate place, as the Law also says;

World English Bible
let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.

Young's Literal Translation
Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;
 
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lords, while i dont disagree with that post. but in the book of exodus, it says clearly that miriam sang a psalm of moses in act of worship.

and the talmud forbade women to speak?hmm even in christs day there was anna the prophetess.
 
lords, while i dont disagree with that post. but in the book of exodus, it says clearly that miriam sang a psalm of moses in act of worship.

and the talmud forbade women to speak?hmm even in christs day there was anna the prophetess.

Yeah, that's the point thought Jason. It was in the Oral Law, the extra Law of the Jews that Christ condemned. That's why the posts made so much sense. Paul was angry at the Judiazers for trying to bring the Oral Law into the Church.
 
Yeah, that's the point thought Jason. It was in the Oral Law, the extra Law of the Jews that Christ condemned. That's why the posts made so much sense. Paul was angry at the Judiazers for trying to bring the Oral Law into the Church.


not all of the talmud was bad, but i do see that he did condemn the jewish leadership on a great deal of additions. i will have to dig into that on the talmud on women being banned from speaking and or singing. i dont see that amongst the faithful(real jews).
 
not all of the talmud was bad, but i do see that he did condemn the jewish leadership on a great deal of additions. i will have to dig into that on the talmud on women being banned from speaking and or singing. i dont see that amongst the faithful(real jews).

Yeah, I agree. But some of the Talmud, woah! Anyways, I'm looking forward to seeing your results. :yes
 
the judaiser were trying to bring all of the judaism into the church.
 
the judaiser were trying to bring all of the judaism into the church.

Exactly, which is why Paul replies to them in anger:

1 Corinthians 14
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 
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