Women and their role in the church

[handy]

Agreed!

Also, I did take in what you said regarding Agabus and that prophecy not being during the assembly.

But, I do find that Paul was giving instructions regarding the assembly when he told the women to cover their heads while prophesying.

 

[Webb]

My wife wears a head covering. For a long time she did not, but by continiued study she does now.

 

[felix]

1: Women have no barrier of any kind to any role whatsoever, up to and including Senior Pastor of the biggest mega-church on the Planet!!!
2: Women are to sit down and keep their mouths shut.

I don't think either view is Biblical.

There are tons of other verses that support women must not be involved in assembly activities.. which can be easily referred from Scriptures.

But we live in a age where knowledge is grown and we question things than accepting it. There was a recent case in New Zealand where a CEO agreed that men perform better than women and he as forced to resign. Many don't agree what truth he really said but became outrageous with equality. It's not about equality but roles. Will you give permission to your 10 yr old son or daughter to drive a city bus? Absolutely not because you know he is down to crash. Similarly, men and women are created for very different purposes and we are not supposed to switch roles. There is a questionnaire called Sex ID from BBC which will tell you which sex you are just my answering some common problems. The way men and women think are entirely different. Women are good Managers and men are good Architects. Women give preferences to overviews wheres men give preferences to minute details.

totopic
Curse for Women:
Gen 3:16 To the woman He said: "

1. I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
2. In pain you shall bring forth children;
3. Your desire [shall be] for your husband,
4. And he shall rule over you."

Curse for Men:
Gen 3:17-19 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "

1. Cursed [is] the ground for your sake;
2. In toil you shall eat [of] it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
3. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground,
4. For out of it you were taken; For dust you [are,] And to dust you shall return."

Being breadwinner for the family is a curse upon men and being ruled by a man is a curse upon woman (along with other curses). The curse is not yet gone and it will be there till resurrection of the dead (as they will be like angels not male or female).

This is why a wise woman builds her house as in Prov 14:1. Many women who are successful in their career often ignore their family and struggle. Many men who are not successful in their career often struggle to maintain their family. Men and women needs to work together to build the church not fight one another to take each other's roles.

 

[handy]

There are tons of other verses that support women must not be involved in assembly activities.. which can be easily referred from Scriptures.

Tons that support that women must not be involved in assembly activities?

OK, I call...how about listing 20.


Interesting test btw...I scored 50 on the female side...spot on average.

 

[felix]

Tons that support that women must not be involved in assembly activities?

OK, I call...how about listing 20.

I can certainly understand why many females want the roles of males since Eve herself want to be like God, but not Adam.

The entire old testament has several laws and Moses provides instructions to 'sons of Israel' often translated as 'children of Israel' in KJV and English (in 99% of locations) to be implemented in their families. You can't find women in assembly activities and the work of temple/tabernacle. If you believe it was God who made these laws, then did He created them for a certain reason.

Even this: Deut 4:44 Now this [is] the law which Moses set before the (children?) of Israel.
The correct translation is: Now this [is] the law which Moses set before the (H1121 בֵּן ben (bane)) sons of Israel.

1. Women cause people to err: Isa 3:12
2. Women must not be given strength: Prov 31:3
3. Women must not be permitted to teach a man: 1Tim 2:12
4. Women must not have authority over a man: Gen 3:16, 1Tim 2:12

The list is on.. but still you miss the point I am trying to make. If the female Senior Pastor is leading the church, then is her parents (if unmarried) and her husband (if married) under her in the assembly?

You seperating the issue as male vs female but forgot what the Scriptures actually say. Even a younger male cannot become a Senior Pastor according to Scripture, but a married male with his children having faith and not rude which means in their children in youth atleast 15 (according to Titus 1:6) - So the age a male who can become a senior pastor or a elder position in church is put to more than 40.

Scripture also gives authority for older women over younger women and children (which could younger males). These roles are different from equality and not to be mixed. All are equal in Christ but not all roles are same inside the body of Christ.

 

[handy]

Felix,

If you've read my posts, you'll see that I'm in agreement with you regarding women being senior pastors.

However, I've studied this issue a lot...especially because I had to go to a church for a few years that had a woman pastor...

...and there truly are not "tons" of verses that say that women must not be involved in assembly activities. Even the texts you shared that are new to the discussion here, Isaiah 3:12 and Proverbs 31:3, do not have anything to do with the role of women in church.

Frankly, the only text I think that can be construed as saying that women must not be involved in assembly activities is 1 Corinthians 14:34 and even that must be tempered by what else is written as instructions to the women of Corinth.

I guess what I'm taking issue here is with the words "must not be involved in assembly activities"...I don't find this a biblical statement. Communion is at the heart of assembly activity and women most certainly should be involved in that. Singing praises and hymns to God are "assembly activities" and women should be involved with that as well.

I think our basic disagreement here isn't whether or not women should lead the assembly activities...but whether women are to even be involved in them. The way you have this phrased makes it sound as if we are to go in, sit down, and not make a movement or sound until it's time to go home.

Perhaps that is not what you mean though.

 

[reba]

1. Women must not be permitted to teach a man: 1Tim 2:12

Can a man learn from a woman?

 

[reba]

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.


Which of these verse are literal?

 

[Webb]

Of course a woman can learn from a man. Apollos learned from Aquilla and his wife Priscilla unto the salvation of his soul. Keep in mind however that was not in the assembly.

 

[reba]

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.


Which of these verse are literal?

Let me ask this way... which of the above verses do we choose to ignore?

 

[felix]

Felix,

If you've read my posts, you'll see that I'm in agreement with you regarding women being senior pastors.

However, I've studied this issue a lot...especially because I had to go to a church for a few years that had a woman pastor...

...and there truly are not "tons" of verses that say that women must not be involved in assembly activities. Even the texts you shared that are new to the discussion here, Isaiah 3:12 and Proverbs 31:3, do not have anything to do with the role of women in church.

Frankly, the only text I think that can be construed as saying that women must not be involved in assembly activities is 1 Corinthians 14:34 and even that must be tempered by what else is written as instructions to the women of Corinth.

I guess what I'm taking issue here is with the words "must not be involved in assembly activities"...I don't find this a biblical statement. Communion is at the heart of assembly activity and women most certainly should be involved in that. Singing praises and hymns to God are "assembly activities" and women should be involved with that as well.

I think our basic disagreement here isn't whether or not women should lead the assembly activities...but whether women are to even be involved in them. The way you have this phrased makes it sound as if we are to go in, sit down, and not make a movement or sound until it's time to go home.

Perhaps that is not what you mean though.

Sorry my mistake. I apologize it's a typo. What I was actually thinking in my mind was 'leading the congregation' when I typed that.

The actual phrase is:
Women must not be allowed to lead the assembly with older men than her. She can however lead the assembly with younger men (who are like children to her).

• Titus 2:3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things
• 2John 1:1 THE ELDER, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth,

In the second letter, John was writing to an elder who is a lady and referring the congregation members as her children (as in 2 John 1:4).

 

[Webb]

Hi Reba

I think the answer to your 2 questions may be phrased thus: Did Jesus or His apostles (the apostles being inspired) ever say more than "yea, yea" and "no, no" literally? If so Jesus violated His own injuction and the aposta

 

[reba]

Webb i messed up your post please see the PM

 

[reba]

For the record I do not believe women should be pastors. I am a PK the job is very taxing very hard, Dad needed mom to be there for him ...

Those 2 verses kinda show me scripture is a guide line as apposed to THE LAW.
Could be i am not say this well cause i dont think we should play games with the Word. Holding hard core to literlism in one verse and not another can get goofy.

 

[handy]

Felix, Ok, now I understand better...thanks for clearing that up. :nod

 

[felix]

Those 2 verses kinda show me scripture is a guide line as apposed to THE LAW.
Could be i am not say this well cause i dont think we should play games with the Word. Holding hard core to literlism in one verse and not another can get goofy.

1Tim 2:12
and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness, (Young's Literal Translation).

1Tim 2:12 is talking about husband and wife.

 

[westtexas]

Hello again Webb, I don't think I worded my question well and you missed the point of what I was asking. Let me get your thoughts one more time please.

As we stated, the word "diakonos" is used 34 times in the epistles of Paul. The KJV translates this word 27 times as minister-6 times as deacon-and only once, in the instance of Phoebe, as servant.
Col. 1:7 Epaphras is "diakonos"-minister in the KJV
Eph. 6:21 Tychicus is "diakonos"-minister in the KJV
Col. 1:23 Paul is "diakonos"-minister in the KJV
Eph. 3:7-8 because Paul is "diakonos" he can preach-KJV
Romans 16:1 Phoebe is "diakonos"-servant in the KJV

However, in Young's Literal Translation, in every instance listed above-this word is translated "ministrant"- Epaphras, Tychicus, Paul and Phoebe.
Tyndale's Translation of 1526 says this of Phoebe---
Romans 16:1 "..........which is a minister of the congregation of Chenchrea"

Methodist scholars, in defense of their women pastors, are quick to point out that up to this point, their is absolutely no difference, scripturally or linguistically, between the ministries of the 4 listed above. In 1596 with the Geneva translation and the 1611 translation of the KJV, due to the sub-serviant nature of women at the time, in this one instance the translation became "servant". It's hard to disagree with these scholars that the same Greek word can be used 34 times and take on a different meaning in the one instance that the subject is female.

Just for the record, I attend a Fundamental Baptist church where women do not even teach Sunday School. Let alone preach. But I believe that the Methodist scholars do a far better job biblically defending their women pastors than my Baptist scholars, with our tenuous hold on 1 Cor. 14:34, do to biblically refute these same women pastors. Any thoughts?

Westtexas

 

[Christ_empowered]

Felix, I took the online gender quiz and I'm perfectly androgynous. What do I make of this?

 

[Webb]

Hello WestTexas----Allow me first to address Phoebe in Rom.16:1. The text does not determine the nature of her service to the church at Cenchrea, but being a "servant"or "deaconess" this much we know. We are not told if she assumed this work of service or if she was appointed by the church. Whether assumed or appointed really makes no difference as her work was given sanction by Paul an inspired men.
Verse 2, which we seldom mention (on this subject) sheds further info. She was not only a servant, helper, succourer of MANY, but ALSO of Paul himself. Now, since women (according to Paul and whom I believe) are to keep silent in the "churches" I can only conclude her work was not in the assembly. Further, Paul said she is not to "teach" or "usurp authority over the man". I conclude from that, that she did not teach Paul, an apostle.
I see nothing in Rom.16:1,2 that gets the woman into the assembly in a leading role.
I have obligation to perform which tell me I must leave you for time being. The Lord willing I will return.
God bless.

 

[n2thelight]

Acts 21:9 "And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy."

Philip had four daughters, and now pay special attention what these daughters did. They prophecied. Today many say that their is no way a woman is to preach in a church, they are supposed to keep quiet in the church.

Well, Philip was one of the chosen by the Apostles, that walked and talked with God, and was to be one of the administrators of the Church from the beginning, and has taught all four of his virgin daughters the Word and they prophecy through the Holy Spirit.

God used those four women, and God will use whomever He pleases, and directs them to speak to people where ever He leads them. If a man choses to ignore a prophecy from God, that will be his loss. Women should pay attention to these scriptures where God favors His servants, especially when they are directly to the ladies.

Then when some old duffer tries to put you on a trip, prod him a little with the Word of God. God gives gifts to different members of the body of Christ, and He is not a respector of persons. He knows who can get His job done for Him, and who will waste those gifts. And if we take a close look into the church world today, we will see that much of the work that needs to get done is done by the ladies.

Roger Christopherson