Women and their role in the church

[Webb]

Hi Jason---Your argument from the synagogue seems to be that in it women sang, prayed and read as did the men, therefore they in the church today should read, preach and pray in the assembly, and forget about what Paul said.

However, in Jesus day some "believed on Him" but loving the "praise of men more than the praise of God" they "did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:'', Jn.12:42,43. Doesn't sound like Jesus had that much fellowship with the synagogue, does it? Further, if women can speak in the assembly of the church as they did in the assembly of the synagogue, then if you believe in Jesus you are likely to be kicked out of the church as they were likely to be kicked out of the synagogue. Thats where such thinking leads. Better pay attention to Paul. And by the way, immediately following Paul's conversion the Jews of the synagogue sought to kill him and that was not the last time. The identity of the church is found in the NT, not the synagogue. Again, better to listen to Paul, he at least said he got his message from Christ, Gal.1:11,12, and he said "I certify you".

 

[jasoncran]

Hi Jason---Your argument from the synagogue seems to be that in it women sang, prayed and read as did the men, therefore they in the church today should read, preach and pray in the assembly, and forget about what Paul said.

However, in Jesus day some "believed on Him" but loving the "praise of men more than the praise of God" they "did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:'', Jn.12:42,43. Doesn't sound like Jesus had that much fellowship with the synagogue, does it? Further, if women can speak in the assembly of the church as they did in the assembly of the synagogue, then if you believe in Jesus you are likely to be kicked out of the church as they were likely to be kicked out of the synagogue. Thats where such thinking leads. Better pay attention to Paul. And by the way, immediately following Paul's conversion the Jews of the synagogue sought to kill him and that was not the last time. The identity of the church is found in the NT, not the synagogue. Again, better to listen to Paul, he at least said he got his message from Christ, Gal.1:11,12, and he said "I certify you".

so if the psalms were song in your church would you then make that statement. who told the apostles that jesus was risen. not any man saw him first.

paul sent women to churches and told them listen to them for i have..

1I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 2That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

listen to a woman and do as she says, hmm sounds like paul gave her some authority to do something.

and uh did i even mention the synagouge in that? no. i mentioned miraim to whom did this in the ot

exodus 15:

20And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. 21And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.


and then theres this whereby a woman and a prophetess was inquired by the king josiah and by the priest hilkiah.

a priest went to a woman to learn of what the lord would do. interesting and this lead to good and last king of this sort of judah.

2 king 22

So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.


so now that christ came we go backwards and women just shut up and sit down and dont do anything in the congration??

i hope in your church you dont sing the psalms as in pauls day those were the only way to worship God via the jewish synagogue

and yet we today sing them. christ didnt eliminate the way of worship nor when paul wrote this"

all scripture is beneficial.." the bible wasnt even collected together, technically to that audience he meant the septugiant lxx! or hebrew orginal.

or when he commended the bereans for searching the scriptures. they only had the septugiant to go by.

 

[Webb]

Christ didn't "eliminate the way of worship" while on earth because He lived under Moses law and kept it perfectly. Paul, who got what he taught from Christ (now under the NT ) said what he wrote came from Christ Gal. 1:11,12. What DID he (Paul) say on the subject?? Read it, II Cor.14:34,35! II Tim.2:11,12. Your argument, sir, is with Paul and Christ, not me.

 

[jasoncran]

Christ didn't "eliminate the way of worship" while on earth because He lived under Moses law and kept it perfectly. Paul, who got what he taught from Christ (now under the NT ) said what he wrote came from Christ Gal. 1:11,12. What DID he (Paul) say on the subject?? Read it, II Cor.14:34,35! II Tim.2:11,12. Your argument, sir, is with Paul and Christ, not me.

no its how you intepret it. and what songs did they sing in the early church if the psalms werent used? i bet they sung them.

if you take it that way kinda tell me why God used women to do his will in the ot? and also where is it described what worship was used?

the gifts werent meant for men only btw. and paul talks about singing in the spirit. some take that as operating in the tounges and aslo women have a function in the church and not just the home.
if so no need to bother with them in the church.

and when you can get around the verse

acts 21

verses 8 and 9

And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. 9And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy

so they had to listen to these women, and uh if the spirit led them to say something then why would he then later tell paul they arent to do that in church?

home church was the only way to have church as there were no church buildings like today.

they gathered together in that house and the lord moved when he felt the time was right in that evangalists house.

 

[Webb]

How hard people work to find loop-holes in God's Word instead of accepting it for what it says.

You mention Phoebe. Will you please show me where it is said she spoke in the assembly? I have never said women can never do any Christian work ( and I think you know that ), in fact I gave scriptures showing some things they are to do.

Now you want Phillips daughters in Acts 21 speaking in the assembly. But the text DOES NOT say that does it?? I know it was not in the assembly because Paul said it was a shame for the woman to do so.

 

[theLords]

How hard people work to find loop-holes in God's Word instead of accepting it for what it says.

Oh, how TRUE. How true, how true, how true!

Now you want Phillips daughters in Acts 21 speaking in the assembly. But the text DOES NOT say that does it?? I know it was not in the assembly because Paul said it was a shame for the woman to do so.

What a fallacious statement!

 

[theLords]

Christ didn't "eliminate the way of worship" while on earth because He lived under Moses law and kept it perfectly. Paul, who got what he taught from Christ (now under the NT ) said what he wrote came from Christ Gal. 1:11,12. What DID he (Paul) say on the subject?? Read it, II Cor.14:34,35! II Tim.2:11,12. Your argument, sir, is with Paul and Christ, not me.

Christ sets free; man imprisons. Your doctrine of man imprisons. The TRUTH of God's Word (which you refuse to admit) sets free.

Galatians 1:11-12
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel, i.e. the Good News, that Jesus Christ died and was risen from the dead. Nice try, though. ;)

Uh, for starters, there is no 2 Corinthians 14. But if, you're referring back to 1 Cor. 14:34-35, why don't you include verse 36 within that? Does it throw a monkey wrench in your false doctrine?

1 Corinthians 14:36-38
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

[reba]

Paul wrote to a number of Churches. The only church he told the ladies to be quiet was the one in Corinth. I wonder what if anything is to be made of the his silence, to the other churches, on the subject... Could part of Pauls thoughts come about because the women in Corinth had money so they were a bit bolder...Could it be that that church had a couple "church ladies" NO one could deal with. Is it written to women in general.

We single out Phoebe and wish to keep her in a box should we also then keep the ladies in Corinth in a box a silent box?

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Gal 3:28 is every bit as much Scripture as 1Cor 14: 34

 

[theLords]

Paul wrote to a number of Churches. The only church he told the ladies to be quiet was the one in Corinth. I wonder what if anything is to be made of the his silence, to the other churches, on the subject... Could part of Pauls thoughts come about because the women in Corinth had money so they were a bit bolder...Could it be that that church had a couple "church ladies" NO one could deal with. Is it written to women in general.

We single out Phoebe and wish to keep her in a box should we also then keep the ladies in Corinth in a box a silent box?

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Gal 3:28 is every bit as much Scripture as 1Cor 14: 34

Corinth, like Ephesus, had a problem with the gnostic "Gospel" usurping the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The gnostics were teaching (the men, mind you) that Eve came from Adam. They had a major problem in Corinth.

 

[westtexas]

You mention Phoebe. Will you please show me where it is said she spoke in the assembly?

Webb, let me throw something at you and get your thoughts. Paul uses the word "diakonos" 34 times in his epistles. 6 times it is translated deacon. 27 times it is translated minister. And only once-in the instance of Phoebe- is it translated servant.

Col. 1:7 Epaphras is "diakonos" in Greek-minister in the KJV
Eph. 6:21 Tychicus is "diakonos" in Greek-minister in the KJV
Col. 1:23 Paul is "diakonos" in Greek-minister in the KJV
Eph. 3:7-8 says because Paul is "diakonos" he can preach.

Romans 16:1-2 Phoebe is "diakonos" in Greek-servant in the KJV

Any thoughts? Westtexas

 

[n2thelight]

In today church I see a brunch of women leading the church in some kind of way and fashion. But when I read 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and like that not right then. So please can so one help me out.

I Timothy 2:11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."

Many people take this verse to far, for it is important that both men and woman sit and learn in silence and be in subjection to those in authority that are doing the teaching. The subject that we are talking about here is "learning" from the Word of God. When God's Word is being taught anywhere, there should be respect for the Word, and those doing the teaching. When you are in a church service and there is talking and moving around that distract others, then knowledge is going forth, and people are being robbed from what they came to hear. This is why there should be silence within the service, and every thing must be done with order and respect for the house of God.

There is nothing that anyone has to say in a service, that is more important than what God's Word has to say. If you think that your words are more important, than leave for you are missing the truth anyhow, and you are disturbing those around you.

I Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Many preachers use this verse to come down hard on the women in their church, and keep them all tied up. Just as the woman is to stay in her place, so a man and their children are to stay in their place also. The word "suffer" as used here is written because of what Paul was doing prior to his conversion. Paul was going into churches and dragging women out into the streets, stripping them and beating them even to their death.

It didn't matter to Paul prior to his conversion or any of those ordered by the high priest what they did with the ladies that would preach the Word of God. Paul knew the suffering that anyone that taught the Word of God would receive at the hands of the Kenite priests and religious leaders, and he did not desire that to come on the Christian ladies of the church. This was a dangerous time to teach the Word of God, and Paul's intent was that the men should take the stand, have the backbone and preach the Word with all the risks that were present.

Paul knew those risks to those that he taught, for he carried the letter from the high priests, those sons of Satan, that had no respect for women in any manner. In fact, he was carrying the letter when he was on that road to Damascus to do just this to the men and women that were preaching and teaching God's Word. It was very embarrassing to the ladies, and even caused many of their deaths. Paul is now saying here that "I give you the liberty and the authority to not do it, to not teach and preach, and cause you to be placed is such danger.

There were women prophets, which is to say teachers in Paul's day and this upsets some of the men folk. Those that take this verse center on the word "not", and skip over the work "suffer", and they continue in their clouds of confusion and bigotry, for it makes them feel very manly to wheel their force over women, and in many cases the women have more knowledge and understanding than the men folk that are over them.

Paul was trying to protect all woman from the kind of treatment that was expected in those days to be give any one that preached or taught. As far as silence goes in the church, no matter who is speaking during a church service, no man woman or child should be allowed to speak and carry on when another is teaching the Word. Paul gave the woman the liberty to keep still and not teach if she did not want to, for this sake.

 

[Webb]

Hi WestTexas and greetings from a fellow Texan

Thayer covers the subject as well as any. On pg.138 he writes of Phoebe as found in Rom.16: "a woman to whom the care of either poor or sick women was entrusted" This seems to concur with Acts 6 and the care of the Grecian widows.

 

[Webb]

Hi theLords
I wrote: "Now you want Phillip's daughters in Acts 21 speaking in the assembly. But the text DOES NOT say that does it?? I know it was not in the assembly because Paul said it was a shame for the woman to do so."

Your answer to the above: ''WHAT A FALLACIOUS STATEMENT.''

QUESTIONS:
1. Does Acts 21 say his daughters spoke in the assembly? Yes or No? I say no.
2. Did Paul write by inspiration of the Holy Spirit: "Let your women keep silent in the churches:" Yes or No?? I say yes.

On the basis of the above, please explain WHY my statement is "fallacious".

 

[handy]

Webb, what was the gift of prophesy for?

Also, do you take the stand then...as some Christians do, that women are not to sing in church?

After all, silent means silent.

 

[Webb]

Hi Reba, thank you for your thoughts.

You wrote:''PAUL WROTE TO A NUMBER OF CHURCHES. THE ONLY CHURCH HE TOLD THE LADIES TO BE QUIET WAS THE ON IN CORINTH.''

According to scripture Corinth is not the only one this applies to. Please note that in I Cor.14:34 Paul uses the word (by inspiration of the Holy Spirit) CHURCHES, plural.
Please note also as Paul adddresses the church in Corinth in his salutation it is not only to the church of God at Corinth but "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ--".

 

[reba]

Do we know how many churches were in Corinth?

When we hold a literal view to Scripture that view should carry through the whole of Scripture...

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.


Literally retirement means one would starve.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[Webb]

Hello Handy---First, allow me to say it has not been my desire or intention to hurt feelings, especially the ladies.

You ask about the purpose of prophecy. I believe we both know its purpose so I shall not address that part. Our issue has been did Phillip's daughters prophecy in the assembly. I believe Phillip had 7 daughters, the Bible says so. I believe his daughters prophecied, the Bible says so. The question remains then, did they prophecy in the assembly? The Bible does not say when his daughters are mentioned whether they did or not. If we wish an answer (if the scripture does answer that question) we will have to look elsewhere in the Bible. Paul says they are to keep "silent" in the "churchs" plural. I cannot and will not go beyond what is written.
You ask about women singing in the assembly. I hope we can agree we must take everything God says on any subject before making a conclusion. My answer
according to scripture is (surprise) yes. The scripture: Col.3:16, "---teaching and admonishing oneanother is psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Paul also wrote this, beyond which I find no scriptural warrant to go further.
May I make a correction in the above. I said Phillip had 7 daughters when he had but 4. Phillip was one of the 7.
In the same context of Phillip's daughters we read of the prophet Agabus. His particular prophecy to Paul was not in the assembly. My point is, prophecies were made in and out of the assembly and from what the scriptures read on the subject I find no reason to believe the daughters did so in the assembly.

 

[felix]

In today church I see a brunch of women leading the church in some kind of way and fashion. But when I read 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and like that not right then. So please can so one help me out.

• 1Tim 3:5 for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?;
• 1Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman [is] man, and the head of Christ [is] God.

There are specific roles inside church given by God for man and woman. Only a woman can give birth to a child and take care of children. But man has a different role to play. He can't give birth for it's not his role, neither he is designed for. But either man or woman, all are are one in Christ. Their roles are different but they are equal.

 

[handy]

Webb, thanks for your answer.

I've just spent the last couple of hours studying this issue...here are my thoughts:

Here is an oft-overlooked passage when it comes to the ministry of women within the church...


Acts 2:17-18
AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.

This prophesy in Joel was fulfilled at Pentecost and it makes it pretty clear that both men and women will be equal partners in ministry in the Body of Christ.

This is substantiated by Galatians 3:28 where Paul says that in Christ there is neither male nor female.

I just go back to what I said earlier...that there are two mistakes when it comes to women in ministry:

1: Women have no barrier of any kind to any role whatsoever, up to and including Senior Pastor of the biggest mega-church on the Planet!!!

2: Women are to sit down and keep their mouths shut.

I don't think either view is Biblical. I see that in the early church women prophesied (and I love how certain people try to maneuver around that one, not you Webb, but hoo-bouy, have I read some strange ideas on this), ministered, prayed in the assembly, even taught...but in each case they were to either be under the authority of a man (the daughters of Philip lived with their father, Pricillia worked with Aquila, women in the assembly under the presbyters or bishops) or have a symbol of authority on them (a head covering for when praying or prophesying in the assembly.)

I do believe that women prophesied in the assembly...and this is what causes me to believe that 1 Corinthians 14:34 should not be interpreted that all women, for all time, everywhere should just sit down and shut up in church...because in the very same letter to the very same church at Corinth, Paul instructs the women to cover their heads when praying or prophesying. In chapter 11, Paul gives the instruction that women are to cover their heads when praying or prophesying during the assembly. How do I know that he is speaking of when the church is assembled together? Because this specific instruction comes right smack in the middle of Paul's corrections to the Corinthians about communion.

Paul begins his discourse on communion in Chapter 10:1. He starts out by saying: For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

During his discourse on communion, Paul points out several areas where the Corinthians were falling short and corrupting their communion. These areas were falling into temptation by acting immorally (10:6-13); eating meats sacrificed to idols (14-33); women not keeping a symbol of authority on their heads while praying or prophesying (11:2-16); and having factions and showing favoritism during the assembly (17-22).

All of these instructions, including the one about women keeping their heads covered while praying or prophesying concerned assembling together.

Going back to the fact that women prophesied and that some will say that this gift somehow wasn't to be used during the assembly....

Interpreting a woman's gift of prophesy that way goes against what Paul told the very same Corinthians that the gifts were for. Paul specifically states that each gift of the Spirit is for the common good..."But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good." (1 Cor 12:7)

I've looked a lot at Paul's instruction about women remaining silent in the churches and...keeping mind that we must interpret Scripture with the totality of Scripture in mind...it doesn't make any sense that Paul would be instructing all women, for all time, to be silent, never to speak or even pray or sing a psalm or hymn in the assembly. This would be a contradiction of not only what he just told the Corinthians regarding women praying and prophesying...it would also contradict the fact that God gave women the gift of prophesy for the common good.

Looking at Chapter 14, we see that Paul is still correcting the Corinthians for their assemblies being chaotic. He instructs them that if one speaks in a tongue, then another must interpret the message, if a revelation is given to one who is seated, then another must be quiet. Prophets were to prophesy one by one, so that all could learn and be exhorted. The picture is pretty clear...the assemblies of the Corinthians were pretty out-of-control, lots of babbling, people speaking over one another, preferential treatment being given, total chaos. Paul exclaims that God is not a God of confusion but of peace....and it is at this juncture that Paul says for women to be silent.

But, he didn't just say for women to be silent. He stated that if a woman wants to learn anything, let her ask her husband at home. I think this is pretty important to not overlook...that a woman was to ask her husband at home.

Taking all this in, to me it just makes the best sense that Paul isn't saying that women are not to prophesy or to pray (as long as they have a symbol of authority)...but he is telling the Corinthian women not to add to the disruptions by asking a lot of questions.

 

[Webb]

Thank you Handy for your thoughts. We all need to continue studying the scripture and try as best we can to "rightly divide it" as Paul also spoke.