Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

[AirDancer]

"teach or usurp authority over the man. is not the same as silent"

So true, Reba .... I agree

 

[reba]

singing is not silent.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[carlos123]

There are 3 reasons why I had distinct interest in this particular Scripture that led me to study further.
...
3) This reason was much more personal. My daughter lost a close friend (for a few years) because my daughter, as a guest in her friend's home, attended church with them, and she participated by saying the same prayers as the others, said 'amen' a couple of times, and sang the music. Seems as though she was the only female who did so.

The father was furious and forbade his daughter to have anything to do with my daughter; his wife was not to have further contact with us. I later learned the father was fined a fairly substantial amount because he brought in a 'heretic' female into their fold, and the 'heretic' spoke up in church.

Where was Christ's love in that church?

Obviously quite absent if you ask me by how they responded to the "heretic" being brought in.

If I may so AirDancer...a personal experience of church abuse, while insightful and worth considering, does not help us understand what Paul said.

As such may I say that it is irrelevant?

There are abuses for just about every Christian thing you can think of. But that doesn't change what is written and what the Word says. That just goes to show that man, including Christianized man, can have it wrong at times if not often.

Carlos

 

[Stormcrow]

"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 18:20 (NASB)

Does this small gathering of believers constitute a "church", Carlos?

 

[carlos123]

"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 18:20 (NASB)

Does this small gathering of believers constitute a "church", Carlos?

An excellent question Stromcrow and one which Reba more or less asked too. I am still thinking and praying through an appropriate answer.

Give me another day or two on this one (maybe less).

I want to deal first with the meaning of the Greek word translated silence and whether there is support for the idea that it means limited silence for the purpose of just not being disruptive or whether it means silence for the length of an assembled church's meeting.

Carlos

 

[reba]

BTW--you spent a long time with Phoebe but you didn't show she did anything in the assembly.

Nor can you show she didn't...

 

[Sparkey]

I want to deal first with the meaning of the Greek word translated silence and whether there is support for the idea that it means limited silence for the purpose of just not being disruptive or whether it means silence for the length of an assembled church's meeting.
Carlos

Let your women keep silence [Strong's #4601] in the churches [Strong's #1577]: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. - (1Cr 14:34 KJV)

Hermeneutics (the study of written documents) contains the general principle that written words should be interpreted in their context so the first thing to do is look for "silence" [Strong's #4601] and see if it is used in the general vicinity. It turns out that it is, twice, used in the same epistle. Two verses prior, while addressing prophetic utterance under the general theme of "all things are to be done in order"...

If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. - (1Cr 14:30 KJV)
​

The the word that is translated as a phrase, "hold his peace", is the same word used for the injunction that women keep silence: sigaō [Strong's #4601]. The same word is used again 2 verses prior in 1Cr 14:28, while addressing the utterance of tongues that is not accompanied by interpretation, again, under the general theme of "all things are to be done in order".

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.​

There are other instances where Christians (of both genders) are told to hold their peace and/or remain quiet outside of that chapter but before we leave we need to examine the admonishment further. Everything said so far can be used to establish the "Handy Interpretation", that women are to remain in submission (and perhaps especially in the assembly).

The point that establishes the "Carlos Position" is the word that is used when Paul says, "for it is not permitted unto them to speak." Now, the word translated 'speak' means the same in both English and Greek. When he says, "it is not permitted for them to speak," it means they should not utter a word. There is no "fudge factor" to be found there, as far as I can see.

It would be remiss of me to leave it at that though because there has been discussion about the remainder of the sentence, "as also saith the law." When we look carefully at what Paul states there we see that Paul is referring to the portions of the law that instruct women to be under obedience, not referring to law that tells them to be silent.

My conclusion thus far is that the Holy Spirit was telling us through Paul that the women were behaving in a manner against the law, that is, disobedient (to God), therefor they should rather be silent (keep their peace in quietness) and not even speak or utter another disruptive word, but instead wait until a more appropriate setting was available (like at home, where they could receive instruction from their husband).

The bible doesn't mention other "appropriate" locations where women could be taught because there were none at the time.
_________________________________________

Now some may come and say that I'm being too liberal in my understanding of the scripture here but before they do, let's continue and examine the circumstances where the word "silence" (Greek sigaō [Strong's #4601]) was used:

• Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past , Jesus was found alone. And they kept [it] close (sigaō), and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen .
• Luk 20:26 And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace (sigaō).
• Act 12:17 But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace (sigaō), declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said , Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed , and went into another place.
• Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence (sigaō), and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
• Act 15:13 And after they had held (sigaō) their peace (sigaō), James answered , saying , Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
• Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret (sigaō) since the world began,
  

 

[Stormcrow]

"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 18:20 (NASB)

Does this small gathering of believers constitute a "church", Carlos?

An excellent question Stromcrow and one which Reba more or less asked too. I am still thinking and praying through an appropriate answer.

I would think the answer is obvious. Christ recognizes and blesses such assemblies with His very presence.

So what if all the attendees of such an assembly are women? Still think God is telling them to "sit down and shut up?"

 

[Sparkey]

Greetings brothers and sisters,

We've been prayerfully asking the LORD to reveal the truth of His holy Word to us and are indeed gathered here together, in His Name, for the purpose of working with Him to establish the unity of the Faith. Let us therefor enter this thread prayerfully with that knowlege and the expectation that our Father in Heaven will smile upon each of us as our love is demonstrated toward each other with every word, deed, and thought.

and everybody said:
Amen, come quickly, Lord Jesus and be here with us as we ponder your Word.

 

[AirDancer]

Amen!

 

[reba]

Very nicely built fence Sparrowhawke which side you settin on? ;)

Because it is easy to miss posts.. Handy has stated what i believe very well...

 

[carlos123]

Hermeneutics (the study of written documents) contains...

SparrowHawke...I am impressed.

May I say that it appears that you and I are very close in position.

My prayer is that the Lord would help us come to agreement around His heart on this matter whatever that is.

I could care less what modern day church practice is, what people are comfortable with, what we like or do not like, or anything of the sort.

The only thing I care about is that Christians accurately express what is on the heart of God as it is expressed in the Bible and that together we might glorify Him more within the Body.

Where I am wrong in my position. Where I am perhaps emphasizing something too much or not enough. Where I am too myopic, looking at this topic like a horse with blinders, and missing the bigger picture...may God in His gracious mercy show me the error of my thinking and humble me before you all to admit it.

I want what God wants and I will side with it no matter how wrong my thinking may prove to be.

Having said that I would encourage every one of you reading this thread to imitate my willingness to humble myself and that all of you would join me in praying to God that He would show us all what is on His heart regarding this matter.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Very nicely built fence Sparrowhawke which side you settin on? ;)

Well...I do hope Reba that we are all on God's side and as willing to yield to whatever He might think about these things.

It's not a matter of taking sides at all.

I could care less if I am ultimately proven right or wrong. All I care about is that God's will would become clear to all who have a willing heart to obey whatever that will is.

Carlos

 

[Sparkey]

Amen, my friend. And it shall be as you have said for this is that which was fortold:

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap [their] hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign [that] shall not be cut off. - (Isa 55:10-13 KJV)

 

[reba]

Well...I do hope Reba that we are all on God's side and as willing to yield to whatever He might think about these things.

It's not a matter of taking sides at all.

I could care less if I am ultimately proven right or wrong. All I care about is that God's will would become clear to all who have a willing heart to obey whatever that will is.

Carlos

A bit of tongue in cheek Carlos..

I agree it is His will . The whole of Scripture not a snippet here or there that happens to fit MY thoughts.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[carlos123]

"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 18:20 (NASB)

Does this small gathering of believers constitute a "church", Carlos?

Okay...I've been thinking and praying about this some and would like to respond.

Reba essentially asked the same thing.

Church essentially means a group of called out one's assembled for a purpose. In the case of the Christian church (because ekklesia from which the english word "church" comes was not really only a Christian assembly) called out to be His Body in the world.

It is not a church building. That's just the building a church meets in but they can as readily meet in a field or anywhere else.

If anyone has any serious contention with that definition we can discuss it further. Otherwise I will leave it at that.

For purposes of this thread the more essential question is what was the assembly that Paul was referring to when he said that women ought not to speak in church?

Was it just two or three Christians gathered together or was it more than that?

Let's look at what Paul said...(all quotations are from the NASB unless otherwise noted)...

Paul used the word "church" quite a bit in 1 Cor 14 but for purposes of determining which assembly women ought to be quiet in he narrows it down a bit further or rather clarifies what he meant in the following verses I believe...

1 Cor 14:23 - "Therefore if the whole church assembles together..."
1 Cor 14:26 - "When you assemble..."

The context in which women are to keep silence is when the whole church assembles!

Is a meeting of two or three the whole church? 99 percent of the time it won't be.

It can be in which case Paul's command for whoever is a woman among those three would apply I think.

But I know of no church that is only 2 or 3 people big anywhere. Do you?

Under normal circumstances Paul's command applies when a local church meets as a whole.

When the "whole church assembles".

Some of you may differ with me on this but I do not believe that Paul's command would apply as such to small home groups that meet as a subset of the whole church necessarily.

At least not according to the what Paul actually said.

However...in spirit, I think Paul's command should be taken into account in such meetings in that women are to behave themselves in a submissive manner (which not speaking is an expression of).

If I was a woman I would be hard pressed to consider myself pleasing to God (in view of Paul's command for women when the whole church is assembled) if I were to let lose at the mouth and start talking publicly all over the place even in a home group meeting without any kind of restraint at all.

Especially when men who have gifts as mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 14 are present such that the Lord might want to say something through them to those assembled.

But that's my personal opinion and by no means a command of God through Paul.

What Paul said is that women should not speak out in an assembly of the whole church. That's where we must leave it, giving liberty to do otherwise in assemblies that do not constitute the whole church assembling.

I see no problem at all with embracing what Paul said in the plain meaning of what he said and verses that talk of wherever two or three are gathered the Lord is there or any other such, smaller than a whole church context.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

I feel a need to point out something else as an addendum to what I said about the nature of church as Paul referred to it.

It is difficult to discuss this issue not only because of what Paul said and the various theories floating around all over the Christian world about what Paul may have meant but also because much of what Paul said in 1 Cor 11 through 1 Cor 14 is simply not practiced in our modern churches.

There is no freedom of expression for those who feel prompted by the Spirit's gift within to say something. In most all cases one must go to a Pastor or other church leader, explain what it is that one would like to say and wait for permission to say it (assuming they are even given opportunity to say anything at all!). Such permission is absolutely not necessary according to Paul's instructions for how things ought to be.

The meeting that Paul describes was a participatory meeting where the men (bearing in mind the prohibition on women speaking in the assembly), any man, could express whatever was on his heart to express at any time (subject only to doing so in an orderly fashion).

Where other men judged what was said and that through a dynamic give and take of sharing and judging God's presence and will were made manifest to the church.

That kind of meeting hardly exists if it does at all today. Especially not in the Western church.

Modern churches simply don't allow that kind of expressive freedom.

I have little clue as to why not.

Except that much of modern church practice seems to have come down to us through the Catholic Church. While the reformation did set some things right the mode of church practice in having one person (the Priest) oversee and run the meeting stayed intact I think. The Protestant version of the one Priest became the Head Pastor.

That stands to reason in that Luther did not initially set out to separate from the Catholic Church but rather to reform it.

There are undoubtedly other practices that transferred from the Catholic Church to the reformation churches, which practices have undoubtedly influenced our modern day practice.

Hardly anyone questions modern day church practice.

Yet God's desire for how the Body ought to be is right under our noses in the Bible. Church leaders are not ignorant. They know what it says.

For one reason or another they just don't implement what Paul said to do (and I am not referring to just women being silent).

As a Body we need to get back to biblical Christianity as it was meant to be if we are going to be all that the Lord wants us to be and calls us to be in these end times.

I just wanted to add that to say that the meetings that Paul talked of when he said the whole church assembling were very different than the one's we have commonly come to associate with Sunday church going.

Carlos

 

[Justice]

Further discussion of women serving the early assemblies (there were not church buildings in those days):
The names of several prominent women are included in Paul’s salutations in Rom 16:1-15: Phoebe, Priscilla (also mentioned in Acts 18:2, 18:26; 1 Cor 16:19), Mary, Junia, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Persis, the mother of Rufus (and claimed by Paul as his own mother), Julia, and the sister of Nereus, along with Timothy’s 4 daughters. (This is not to be taken as an exhaustive list.)
Romans 16: 1-16 (NASB)

1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a (servant) of the church which is at Cenchrea;
2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles;

5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.

7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord.

9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my kinsman. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord.

12 Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord.

13 Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them.

15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you."

(See also: Rom 16:21; 2 Cor 9:23; Philippians 2:25, 4:3; Colossians 4:11; 1 Thessalonians 3:2; Philemon 1:1-2, 24.)

Phoebe, rather interesting, is given the description of “diakonon” of the Church in Cenchrea. This form of the word is used only 2 other times, in Romans 15:8 and 1 Thessalonians 3:2.
“Diakonon” is of masculine gender in Greek but is used to describe Phoebe. The feminine form ‘diakonissa’ did not exist in the ancient world until 325 AD, and females who served as ‘deacons’ (diaknonoi) in the ancient world were called ‘deacons’ rather than ‘deaconnesses.’ Phoebe was more than just a sister (Philemon 2), but a diakonon.
Scripture records that women were included in the leadership ministry of the NT churches. However, one must look at the words used to describe their involvement: important words such as fellow labourers/workers, fellow prisoners, fellow soldiers, helper, labourer. And who described them with those words? Paul.
Paul also wrote in Romans 12: 1-
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;

8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.


Could ‘silence’ for women have been the standard for “all the churches”? Were/are women allowed a very slim & limited participation in their assemblies?
Absolutely not…and this is all according to Scripture.
- AD

AirDancer, You mentioned Junia who Paul calls an apostle: Romans 16:7: Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Some deny that Junia was a woman because that places her in the position of authority. Here are a couple of links in support:

http://christianthinktank.com/fem08.html

http://www.denverseminary.edu/article/junia-the-first-woman-apostle/

 

[Stormcrow]

The context in which women are to keep silence is when the whole church assembles!

Is a meeting of two or three the whole church? 99 percent of the time it won't be.

Even if we accepted your argument, that 1% puts your whole interpretation of Paul's words to the lie.

It can be in which case Paul's command for whoever is a woman among those three would apply I think.

That wasn't the question: what if all three are women???

A whole assembly could be three people and they could all be women, again putting the lie to your view.

But I know of no church that is only 2 or 3 people big anywhere. Do you?

Every church had to start small once.

You can't rationalize your way out of this. Stop trying to silence women. It's hateful and beneath those who call Jesus, "Lord."

If you want women to "sit down and shut up" in church, go Islam. It shares your Dark Ages view of how women should be treated!

 

[Stormcrow]

As a Body we need to get back to biblical Christianity as it was meant to be if we are going to be all that the Lord wants us to be and calls us to be in these end times.

These are not the end times. But given that you're wrong about that, it certainly explains how you're wrong about everything else. 2