Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

[Jethro Bodine]

The devil is always handy...

You know, I've had my suspicions (lol!).

 

[carlos123]

For clarity...nowhere have I stated that I thought prophesy could only be exercised within church assemblies...

I stand corrected then. Thanks for clarifying that Dora (i.e handy).

Prophesy can take place pretty much anywhere, but it's primary intent is for the edification of the church.

Agreed.

My main disagree with Carlos regarding this was when Carlos stated that the instructions for a woman to cover her head while praying or prophesying was to be taken in the context of Chapter 10 and assumed that the instruction applied to women at home.

Just as you corrected my misunderstanding of what you said I must correct your misunderstanding here.

I never said that the covering instructions were meant to be applied in the home. I brought up the Chapter 10 context of a private home to lay the ground for my belief that the covering instructions were not intended to be applied in a church assembly context but that are rather general instructions for how men and women are to conduct themselves (head covering wise) in every day life outside church assemblies.

The head covering instructions are between the context of a private home in Chapter 10 and an assembly of the church in 1 Cor 11:17-18.

The fact that those gifted with prophesy can exercise that gift outside of the assemblies doesn't negate the fact that Paul was addressing the exercise of the gift by women in the assemblies in Chapter 11.

That's an assumption Dora which is not supported by what the text actually says. There is nowhere a certain context given for the instructions on head coverings. It is assumed that 1 Cor 11:17-18 (where it talks of a church assembly for the first time) is the context but as I have shown there are lots of versions which render those verses as refering to the instructions that come afterwards and not to head coverings.

I know that may seem like semantics and nit picking but it is important from the standpoint that if that if the head covering instructions were meant to be applied in an assembly they come into direct conflict with Paul's instructions for women to remain silent (which are absolutely clear as pertaining to an assembly).

Either one (the head covering instructions) are to be applied in the assembly or the other (Paul's instruction for women to remain silent) but not both.

Just as people speaking in tongues can speak in tongues just about anywhere, but Paul was addressing it's use in the assemblies...he was instructing the church about their behavior in the assemblies from Chapter 11 onward.

Your interpretation of the context is akin to painting with a very wide stroke. Taking in more than is warranted by the text.

The context you assume for the head covering instructions is my no means certain Dora.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Okay, do you think that there is danger of misunderstanding when a single quote is used to establish a doctrine, or do you believe that the whole bible and every discussion of the subject and related subjects should rather be prayfully considered first?

In anticipation of your wisdom in the response about general principles of biblical study and proper hermeneutics, I would like to point to 2Thess 3 and 1Tim 1:11 and draw your attention to the fact that these two scriptures hold several things in common with the 1Cor injunction.

Thanks for clarifying what you mean SparrowHawke. Let me think about what you said some before I respond.

If I inadvertently neglect to respond in a day or two please feel free to remind me.

Carlos

 

[handy]

The head covering instructions are between the context of a private home in Chapter 10 and an assembly of the church in 1 Cor 11:17-18.

The fact that those gifted with prophesy can exercise that gift outside of the assemblies doesn't negate the fact that Paul was addressing the exercise of the gift by women in the assemblies in Chapter 11.


That's an assumption Dora which is not supported by what the text actually says. There is nowhere a certain context given for the instructions on head coverings. It is assumed that 1 Cor 11:17-18 (where it talks of a church assembly for the first time) is the context but as I have shown there are lots of versions which render those verses as refering to the instructions that come afterwards and not to head coverings.

And I've seen that, Carlos... and disagree with you for the reasons I've already stated. It's not an assumption... not at all. I think anyone simply looking at the passage, unbiased and reading it as written will see that Chapter 11-14, with the possible exception of 11:1, is all about conduct within the assemblies. This view is fully supported by what the text actually says.

The devil is always handy to give us multitudes of excuses for not doing what the Lord has told us to do.

Don't know whether to laugh or get snifty about this one... ah well, I'm too tired with banged up doggies to be snifty...I'll laugh instead.

Now I really am out of here... I just wasted the last 10 minutes writing a long post here... and didn't say anything I hadn't said before... definitely time to move on!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro wrote: ''THE PROHIBITION IS NOT AGAINST SPEAKING. ITS AGAINST SPEAKING AUTHORITATIVELY."

In the 1st place why would anyone not speak with authority? Did not Peter ( who also was inspired ) say "if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God"?

Not all gifted speaking is authoritative instruction. The Jewish woman who spoke prophetically to me was most certainly speaking on behalf of God, but it was hardly a matter of her teaching me something, let alone with the weight of spiritual authority.

 

[reba]

The devil is always handy

:eeeekkk Sheesh She is not :waving Watch it Jethro....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

:eeeekkk Sheesh She is not :waving Watch it Jethro....

With crazed mad scientist look in my eyes and uplifted finger..."Silence!"

 

[Webb]

Jethro I quoted what Peter said: "if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God." I take that to mean we are to be scripturally bound by what we say.

 

[Webb]

Reba--whatever definition you wish to place on the meaning of "speak" the word of God said "shame", "improper". Your argument is with God not me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro I quoted what Peter said: "if any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God." I take that to mean we are to be scripturally bound by what we say.

No, no. It means speaking as if speaking on God's behalf, or only speaking things God would speak. It takes 'self' out of the speaking gifts (encouragement, prophecy, teaching, word of knowledge, etc...).

"10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God." (1 Peter 4:10-11 NIV1984)

 

[Webb]

Jethro--About the Jewish woman who prophecied to you: 1st. We're talking about the assembly only and it doesn't appear such was in an assembly as in the context of I Cor. 2nd, it wasn't much of a prophecy if it was just what you already knew.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Reba--whatever definition you wish to place on the meaning of "speak" the word of God said "shame", "improper". Your argument is with God not me.

It is shameful and improper for a woman to speak with the authority reserved for a man in regard to spiritual matters. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[reba]

Reba--whatever definition you wish to place on the meaning of "speak" the word of God said "shame", "improper". Your argument is with God not me.

So a woman is not say excuse me, thank you, Amen, nothing at all? Do you allow them to sing?


EDITED: Does God allow women to sing in church?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro--About the Jewish woman who prophecied to you: 1st. We're talking about the assembly only and it doesn't appear such was in an assembly as in the context of I Cor.

It was definitely not a teaching moment for receiving authoritative, spiritual instruction.

The point is, there is gifted speaking that is not teaching, nor authoritative. Speaking women can do that. 'Silence' in the church is in regard to women speaking with (supposed) spiritual authority ("Was it from you that the word of God first went forth?").

2nd, it wasn't much of a prophecy if it was just what you already knew.

How did you get that out of what I shared? If I already knew the outcome of what she was talking about it would not have been a prophecy. Many years later, when it turned out to be true, that is when I knew for sure she was speaking a word from God to me. I actually had no expectation that what she was saying to me would happen and was actively making plans to make something exactly contrary happen. Oh, foolish human that I am!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I suppose, Webb, you think a woman could speak authoritatively...as long as it's not during a church service? That's nonsense. That would defy the other scriptures we shared that show exactly what the issue with a women speaking to/ teaching a man is all about:


"12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve (order of headship). 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 Timothy 2:12-14 NASB)

So you can easily see this has nothing to do with where a woman speaks (authoritatively), but to whom.

 

[handy]

With crazed mad scientist look in my eyes and uplifted finger..."Silence!"

:toofunny Now THAT'S funny.

I was thinking of Webb's quote "The devil is always handy to give us multitudes of excuses for not doing what the Lord has told us to do" a little while ago when my daughter was giving me excuses for not having some school work ready.

What's the difference between "excuses" and "reasons"? Whether or not you agree with them. I think this will always hold true, no matter how valid we think our "reasons" are...if someone disagrees they'll label them excuses.

(However, I still am tempted to sniftyness at the idea that I'm trying to not do what the Lord has told us to do...I'm pretty committed to following God's inerrant Word in my life...notwithstanding that I might not agree with others interpretation of some of the things written therein.)

 

[Justice]

Well...the prophetic words come from God as in He is the one that inspires whoever is a prophet to speak what they say.

Congratulations! Your very words explain what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

In other words does God's word speak to you and through you only? For anyone to think that (male or female) they are flat out wrong!

If you mean by that, that the Lord asked you to ask me that...that's fine. I don't know why you seem to feel a need to be secrative about that. If God told you to ask me that then come out and say so.

Yes he did. Nothing secretive about it. Perhaps he wanted you to acknowledge were the prophectic words comes from. In any case from your above statement it worked.

Regarding whether women can receive other spiritual gifts such as discernment...don't know what you are getting at exactly but yes, I believe they can. There is no reason to believe that they can't.

If you mean by that, that you have a gift of discernment and that therefore that means that you know what you are talking about regarding this issue (apart from anything that may be written) I would counter with the statement of Paul where he said...

No gift overrides what is written Justice.

If a woman has the gift of discerning spirits how could she warn the people (the Church) if an evil spirit has entered the Church (body) when she is not allowed to speak? If a woman has the gift of healing, miracles, tongues, and so forth does she have to learn sign language?

1 Thessalonians 5:19-24

19: Quench not the Spirit.

20: Despise not prophesyings.

21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.

I have yet to see any true God given prophecy in or out of a building cause choas, confusion, or harm. It has always been in the perfect place at the perfect time but why would we expect anything less?

The Corinthians undoubtedly had the gift of discernment among them somewhere. Yet such a gift did not prevent them from going astray in their understanding of how God wanted them to act.

You can gloss over verse 36 while holding everyone else to a no assumption type of standard. Please show me the verse(s) were the Corinthians had the gift of discernment or any other spiritual gifts. That Church was full of problems as a matter of fact Paul calls them carnal:

1 Corinthians 3:1-3

1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3: For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Ask the fallible carnal minded husband at home the things of God?

BTW --- It was a woman's (Church) house who made Paul aware of some of the problems in the Corinth Church:

1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

As to the question of whether I am married or not...such a question is superflous for understanding what Paul said in the text. As such I must respectfully ignore it to focus on that which we are discussing without going off into a tangent of what my married state has to do with what Paul said (unless of course you can show me how my married state has anything to do with a proper understanding of what Paul said...in which case I will gladly divulge my state of marriage or not).

Carlos

Why so secretive? It's been my experience that most men in Church buildings or the ones who stumble in here cracking the women be silent "bull" whip are running or hiding from something and feel they have very little status in the Church body (in other words not much more then a woman).

It's not like you're the first to bring this topic up and I'm sure you won't be the last.

If you are single why not start an all male Church? Now that would be the Ultimate experiment for you.

 

[Tina]

Do I have a problem with women? No! I am married to a lovely women who loves and respects God and His word.

From the time you and your wife enter the church building till the time you step out of it, does you wife keeps silent throughout the service without uttering even a single word as "Amen" ? Is she at least allowed to worship God with songs ?

What do you think Paul meant when he mentioned "church assembly" ? Must it be in a designated building or home ? Can it not be elsewhere outside ? What is your understanding of "church" ?

 

[Stormcrow]

"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 18:20 (NASB)

Does this small gathering of believers constitute a "church", Carlos?

 

[Webb]

Tina you asked "is she at least allowed to worship God in songs?" I gave scripture for that point.