Webb some times post 'get lost;. Could you please repost the scriptures?
ADDED: Thanks Webb!
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Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!
- Thread starter carlos123
- Start date
ADDED: Thanks Webb!
handy
Member
I'm back!:devil
:D
Seriously, this is a new point here....
... neither of these verses has to do specifically with the assemblies. There is no reference to the assemblies in these passages at all. Therefore, the argument that has been posed against women prophesying and praying in the assemblies because they are admonished to be silent...but they can pray and prophesy anywhere else, holds true with singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs as well.
If women are to be silent in the assemblies, this means silent...they can sing at home, or when gathered with others. This is especially true with singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs because Paul tells us the purpose of these song are to admonish and teach one another. Certainly in view of 1 Timothy 2:12, we must see that a woman should never admonish or teach a man in the assemblies.
We can't (or at least we shouldn't) be arbitrary in how we apply Scripture. If 1 Corinthians 14:34 means that women are to not speak in the assemblies, even in prophesy or prayer, and even if they show proper submission to the authority of men, then this must include singing as well.
Now, if one views the "silent" of 1 Corinthians 14 as not meaning "silent" but rather to hold one's peace and refraining from being disruptive...and agrees that a woman can indeed share a prophesy or a prayer from the Lord during the assemblies (but to show proper respect and submission)...then yes, there is no problem applying Colossians 3:16 or Ephesians 5:19 to the assemblies.
:D
Seriously, this is a new point here....
The problem with using these verses to say that women can sing in the assemblies, is
... neither of these verses has to do specifically with the assemblies. There is no reference to the assemblies in these passages at all. Therefore, the argument that has been posed against women prophesying and praying in the assemblies because they are admonished to be silent...but they can pray and prophesy anywhere else, holds true with singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs as well.
If women are to be silent in the assemblies, this means silent...they can sing at home, or when gathered with others. This is especially true with singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs because Paul tells us the purpose of these song are to admonish and teach one another. Certainly in view of 1 Timothy 2:12, we must see that a woman should never admonish or teach a man in the assemblies.
We can't (or at least we shouldn't) be arbitrary in how we apply Scripture. If 1 Corinthians 14:34 means that women are to not speak in the assemblies, even in prophesy or prayer, and even if they show proper submission to the authority of men, then this must include singing as well.
Now, if one views the "silent" of 1 Corinthians 14 as not meaning "silent" but rather to hold one's peace and refraining from being disruptive...and agrees that a woman can indeed share a prophesy or a prayer from the Lord during the assemblies (but to show proper respect and submission)...then yes, there is no problem applying Colossians 3:16 or Ephesians 5:19 to the assemblies.
Handy--Very true the admonitions of Eph. and Col. are general and are meant as instruction for every day living. I take it to include the assembly as well unless can otherwise be proved. For example, husbands are to ove their wives whether in or out of the assembly. Paul said in Hebrews "in the midst of the congregation I will sing. Singing therefore is in the midst of the congregation, the woman included and if not, why not? One interesting note here, the passages did not include instrumental music, lonly "speaking to your selves in psalms" etc.
handy
Member
For the reasons already stated: Praying, prophesying and tongues are in the midst of the congregation as well. Yet, Paul specifically tells women to keep silent in the assemblies...they can exercise their gifts all other times, but, in the assemblies they are not to speak at all (ie keep silent). We women can prophesy any other time, pray (aloud) any other time, even correct a man of erroneous biblical knowledge any other time...just not in the assemblies...there we are to keep silent.
Again...given the fact that the stated purpose of singing the psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs is to admonish and teach, wouldn't they most certainly be included with what women are not to utter during the assemblies?
What is your definition of silent?
Pardon the correction (and I know you already know this) but there is a subtle difference between the question, "What is the definition of the word 'silent'"? and "What is the concept behind the Greek that is sometimes translated into English as 'silent'"? In other words, what is the difference between what was translated, how we say it in English, and what was meant (if any).
What themes or contexts surround its use?
If we can see that such words or admonitions are often surrounded by a central theme, for instance, if the "silence" admonition is used to correct disorderly conduct, or if it is spoken of oftentimes with a reminder of other "traditions" that were given orally, or if it is used to correct both genders in various situations, we can begin to have a more rigorous definition of the use and meaning of the word. Is the intentional use of the word better understood as "keep one's peace and learn in a submissive manner," or does it mean a literal and utter silence? If the latter, under what circumstances?
Now, as we continue to do a word study, we should also note that word studies are not a solid foundation for doctrine. Doctrines such as baptisms, repentance, resurrection, judgment, and the like are entirely different from those things that were spoken of situationally, through example, or occasionally.
But my point is to come to a more complete grasp of the subject one must look at the concept (and concepts) addressed and resist the urge to sieze upon a particular meaning until a full, prayerful, study of the text and relevant cross-referenced materials might be completed.
What themes or contexts surround its use?
If we can see that such words or admonitions are often surrounded by a central theme, for instance, if the "silence" admonition is used to correct disorderly conduct, or if it is spoken of oftentimes with a reminder of other "traditions" that were given orally, or if it is used to correct both genders in various situations, we can begin to have a more rigorous definition of the use and meaning of the word. Is the intentional use of the word better understood as "keep one's peace and learn in a submissive manner," or does it mean a literal and utter silence? If the latter, under what circumstances?
Now, as we continue to do a word study, we should also note that word studies are not a solid foundation for doctrine. Doctrines such as baptisms, repentance, resurrection, judgment, and the like are entirely different from those things that were spoken of situationally, through example, or occasionally.
But my point is to come to a more complete grasp of the subject one must look at the concept (and concepts) addressed and resist the urge to sieze upon a particular meaning until a full, prayerful, study of the text and relevant cross-referenced materials might be completed.
handy
Member
I agree with what you are saying, Sparrowhawke, and it's part of the reason why I see no conflict between women praying and prophesying in church, even singing in church, and Paul's admonishment for women to keep silent.
I was asking Webb, specifically, his definition of silent...in an attempt to figure out how he can hold to women being silent when it comes to prayer, prophesy, tongues, all the ways the congregation speaks in church...and yet not apply this to singing.
I was asking Webb, specifically, his definition of silent...in an attempt to figure out how he can hold to women being silent when it comes to prayer, prophesy, tongues, all the ways the congregation speaks in church...and yet not apply this to singing.
Handy, the Bible is its own best commentary. Since the contexts of Eph. and Col. relate to everyday living for the Christian, and we know there was singing in the congregation, and the text says "speaking to oneanother in psalms" etc we can know the woman may sing.
We must go by Bible examples. It says the woman is not to "teach". The context shows that to be in the assembly. Yet we read elsewhere where a husband and wife ( Aquila and Priscilla ) took a man aside (note not in the assembly ) and instructed him in the way of the Lord, Acts 18. Thus we have the approved Bible example of a woman with her husband teaching a man, BUT out of the assembly. All you need do is to show where the woman did so (other than singing) in the congregation and you will have a strong case. Until then, Paul says he taught the same thing everywhere, in every church.
We must go by Bible examples. It says the woman is not to "teach". The context shows that to be in the assembly. Yet we read elsewhere where a husband and wife ( Aquila and Priscilla ) took a man aside (note not in the assembly ) and instructed him in the way of the Lord, Acts 18. Thus we have the approved Bible example of a woman with her husband teaching a man, BUT out of the assembly. All you need do is to show where the woman did so (other than singing) in the congregation and you will have a strong case. Until then, Paul says he taught the same thing everywhere, in every church.
AirDancer
Member
1 Corinthians 14: 31-39: (NASB)
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 3
6 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. 38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
I know it’s already been discussed here, but let’s revisit verse 34’s “just as the law also says.†What law?
If Paul was citing Scripture, he would have immediately included the source. He did so through the entire letter of 1 Corinthians. For example, 1 Cor 9: 8-9: “Does not the law also say the same? For it is written in the law of Moses: ‘You shall not muzzle an ox while it is threshing.†(Deut. 25:4).
He does the same citing of Scripture in 1 Cor 14: 21: “In the Law it is written,†and he immediately quotes from Isaiah 28: 11-12. In every situation where Paul refers to Scriptural law, he backs up what he’s saying with quotes from the OT to prove his point. (for further examples, see 1 Cor 4:6; 1 Cor. 1:19; 1:31; 2: 9; 3:19; 10:7; 15:45.)
So why not here in 1 Cor 14:34?
It is simply because he is addressing an issue that was presented in the letter he received from the Corinthians. No one disagrees that 1 Corinthian is a letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Yet, some will disagree that Paul included some of the content from the Corinthians letter in his response to them.
Paul had already instructed the Corinthians that all had been liberated from the law, so how could he then refer to Mosaic law at this point in verse 34? He couldn’t, for otherwise he would have contradicted himself. And he did not do so here or elsewhere in his writings. (Rom 3:28; 6:14; 7:16; 8:2; Gal 3:11, 13; 4:5; 5:18, etc.)
So what ‘law’?
Paul, in his response to the Corinthians, was admonishing them for the inclusion of some Jewish Oral law which taught the silencing of women. The Talmud says it is ‘a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men.’ 1 Cor 14: 34-35 quotes a Jewish ordinance because women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies or even to ask questions. (It’s also interesting to note that rabbis taught that a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.)
As a result of bringing Oral law into the assembly, chaos and disruption were occurring.
Paul, however, rebuked the believers for their behavior; that they were dead to the law by the body of Christ (Rom 7:4) so that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Rom 7:6).
In short: Paul had just finished telling the Corinthians that women can pray and prophesy in the assembly (vs. 31). He then corrects the Judaizers’ error with verse 36. He follows this up with a repeat of his admonitions in verses 37-40.
- AD
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 3
6 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. 38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
I know it’s already been discussed here, but let’s revisit verse 34’s “just as the law also says.†What law?
If Paul was citing Scripture, he would have immediately included the source. He did so through the entire letter of 1 Corinthians. For example, 1 Cor 9: 8-9: “Does not the law also say the same? For it is written in the law of Moses: ‘You shall not muzzle an ox while it is threshing.†(Deut. 25:4).
He does the same citing of Scripture in 1 Cor 14: 21: “In the Law it is written,†and he immediately quotes from Isaiah 28: 11-12. In every situation where Paul refers to Scriptural law, he backs up what he’s saying with quotes from the OT to prove his point. (for further examples, see 1 Cor 4:6; 1 Cor. 1:19; 1:31; 2: 9; 3:19; 10:7; 15:45.)
So why not here in 1 Cor 14:34?
It is simply because he is addressing an issue that was presented in the letter he received from the Corinthians. No one disagrees that 1 Corinthian is a letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Yet, some will disagree that Paul included some of the content from the Corinthians letter in his response to them.
Paul had already instructed the Corinthians that all had been liberated from the law, so how could he then refer to Mosaic law at this point in verse 34? He couldn’t, for otherwise he would have contradicted himself. And he did not do so here or elsewhere in his writings. (Rom 3:28; 6:14; 7:16; 8:2; Gal 3:11, 13; 4:5; 5:18, etc.)
So what ‘law’?
Paul, in his response to the Corinthians, was admonishing them for the inclusion of some Jewish Oral law which taught the silencing of women. The Talmud says it is ‘a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men.’ 1 Cor 14: 34-35 quotes a Jewish ordinance because women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies or even to ask questions. (It’s also interesting to note that rabbis taught that a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.)
As a result of bringing Oral law into the assembly, chaos and disruption were occurring.
Paul, however, rebuked the believers for their behavior; that they were dead to the law by the body of Christ (Rom 7:4) so that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Rom 7:6).
In short: Paul had just finished telling the Corinthians that women can pray and prophesy in the assembly (vs. 31). He then corrects the Judaizers’ error with verse 36. He follows this up with a repeat of his admonitions in verses 37-40.
- AD
AirDancer
Member
Further discussion of women serving the early assemblies (there were not church buildings in those days):
The names of several prominent women are included in Paul’s salutations in Rom 16:1-15: Phoebe, Priscilla (also mentioned in Acts 18:2, 18:26; 1 Cor 16:19), Mary, Junia, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Persis, the mother of Rufus (and claimed by Paul as his own mother), Julia, and the sister of Nereus, along with Timothy’s 4 daughters. (This is not to be taken as an exhaustive list.)
Romans 16: 1-16 (NASB)
1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a (servant) of the church which is at Cenchrea;
2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles;
5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.
7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord.
9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my kinsman. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord.
12 Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord.
13 Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them.
15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you."
(See also: Rom 16:21; 2 Cor 9:23; Philippians 2:25, 4:3; Colossians 4:11; 1 Thessalonians 3:2; Philemon 1:1-2, 24.)
Phoebe, rather interesting, is given the description of “diakonon†of the Church in Cenchrea. This form of the word is used only 2 other times, in Romans 15:8 and 1 Thessalonians 3:2.
“Diakonon†is of masculine gender in Greek but is used to describe Phoebe. The feminine form ‘diakonissa’ did not exist in the ancient world until 325 AD, and females who served as ‘deacons’ (diaknonoi) in the ancient world were called ‘deacons’ rather than ‘deaconnesses.’ Phoebe was more than just a sister (Philemon 2), but a diakonon.
Scripture records that women were included in the leadership ministry of the NT churches. However, one must look at the words used to describe their involvement: important words such as fellow labourers/workers, fellow prisoners, fellow soldiers, helper, labourer. And who described them with those words? Paul.
Paul also wrote in Romans 12: 1-
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
Could ‘silence’ for women have been the standard for “all the churches� Were/are women allowed a very slim & limited participation in their assemblies?
Absolutely not…and this is all according to Scripture.
- AD
The names of several prominent women are included in Paul’s salutations in Rom 16:1-15: Phoebe, Priscilla (also mentioned in Acts 18:2, 18:26; 1 Cor 16:19), Mary, Junia, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Persis, the mother of Rufus (and claimed by Paul as his own mother), Julia, and the sister of Nereus, along with Timothy’s 4 daughters. (This is not to be taken as an exhaustive list.)
Romans 16: 1-16 (NASB)
1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a (servant) of the church which is at Cenchrea;
2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles;
5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.
7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord.
9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my kinsman. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord.
12 Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord.
13 Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them.
15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you."
(See also: Rom 16:21; 2 Cor 9:23; Philippians 2:25, 4:3; Colossians 4:11; 1 Thessalonians 3:2; Philemon 1:1-2, 24.)
Phoebe, rather interesting, is given the description of “diakonon†of the Church in Cenchrea. This form of the word is used only 2 other times, in Romans 15:8 and 1 Thessalonians 3:2.
“Diakonon†is of masculine gender in Greek but is used to describe Phoebe. The feminine form ‘diakonissa’ did not exist in the ancient world until 325 AD, and females who served as ‘deacons’ (diaknonoi) in the ancient world were called ‘deacons’ rather than ‘deaconnesses.’ Phoebe was more than just a sister (Philemon 2), but a diakonon.
Scripture records that women were included in the leadership ministry of the NT churches. However, one must look at the words used to describe their involvement: important words such as fellow labourers/workers, fellow prisoners, fellow soldiers, helper, labourer. And who described them with those words? Paul.
Paul also wrote in Romans 12: 1-
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
Could ‘silence’ for women have been the standard for “all the churches� Were/are women allowed a very slim & limited participation in their assemblies?
Absolutely not…and this is all according to Scripture.
- AD
handy
Member
AD,
Yes, I've seen the discussion before on the "law" in verse 34. I do believe that an uncredited quotation here is at the heart of the the confusion. As you so correctly stated (and either did before or else someone else did) there is no Mosaic Law stating that a woman must keep silent in the assemblies, so naturally the law being referred to had to be a man-made one. However, written into the letter as it is, I'm not comfortable with just writing off Paul's words as a quotation from the Corinthians to him that he is replying to.
However, if folks were to truly allow the Bible to be it's own best commentary, it remains clear that Paul isn't dictating that all women for all time must remain silent in the assemblies (except for some reason, singing)...especially basing this on an oral law...but rather that he is addressing the general chaos within the Corinthians' assemblies.
Webb, obviously you've reconciled in your own heart what appears to be a glaring discrepancy in your thought processes here. I can't say I find your reasons here either biblically sound or logical...as a matter of fact, they are the same reasons that I look at and conclude that Col. and Eph. can be used to show that when Paul said for women to be silent, he was not advocating that women aren't to speak at all. I've noticed that you have now added a parenthetical statement to your challenge. Before it was just "All you need do is to show where the woman did so in the congregation and you will have a strong case..."
I am still interested in seeing your definition of "silence". A very strong, overwhelmingly strong, case has been made, using not only the Bible as it's own best commentary as well as the Greek, that "silence" here in this context means "keep the peace" as in not being disruptive.
You obviously disagree with this definition...what is your definition of the word "silent"?
Yes, I've seen the discussion before on the "law" in verse 34. I do believe that an uncredited quotation here is at the heart of the the confusion. As you so correctly stated (and either did before or else someone else did) there is no Mosaic Law stating that a woman must keep silent in the assemblies, so naturally the law being referred to had to be a man-made one. However, written into the letter as it is, I'm not comfortable with just writing off Paul's words as a quotation from the Corinthians to him that he is replying to.
However, if folks were to truly allow the Bible to be it's own best commentary, it remains clear that Paul isn't dictating that all women for all time must remain silent in the assemblies (except for some reason, singing)...especially basing this on an oral law...but rather that he is addressing the general chaos within the Corinthians' assemblies.
Webb, obviously you've reconciled in your own heart what appears to be a glaring discrepancy in your thought processes here. I can't say I find your reasons here either biblically sound or logical...as a matter of fact, they are the same reasons that I look at and conclude that Col. and Eph. can be used to show that when Paul said for women to be silent, he was not advocating that women aren't to speak at all. I've noticed that you have now added a parenthetical statement to your challenge. Before it was just "All you need do is to show where the woman did so in the congregation and you will have a strong case..."
I am still interested in seeing your definition of "silence". A very strong, overwhelmingly strong, case has been made, using not only the Bible as it's own best commentary as well as the Greek, that "silence" here in this context means "keep the peace" as in not being disruptive.
You obviously disagree with this definition...what is your definition of the word "silent"?
Paul was inspired. Inspired of the Holy Spirit. I believe that. When he says "as also saith the law" he has in mind some law of course. Law is used several different ways in scripture, because you cannot find it doesn't mean he was in error. I believe I understand the law he refers to and whan such time allows I will discuss it.
The next matter of note you cite in your discourse is that the early church had no church buildings. There is a hint that the Corinthian church did, look for it. But all of that matter is of no importance. I have helped establish congregations which met in VFW halls, rented buildings and yes, even in homes. Paul's inspired rule still helt true in each place, the woman did not "teach or usurp authority over the man. The type of structured we meet in had no effect on Paul's command. None at all.
The next matter of note you cite in your discourse is that the early church had no church buildings. There is a hint that the Corinthian church did, look for it. But all of that matter is of no importance. I have helped establish congregations which met in VFW halls, rented buildings and yes, even in homes. Paul's inspired rule still helt true in each place, the woman did not "teach or usurp authority over the man. The type of structured we meet in had no effect on Paul's command. None at all.
AirDancer---A deacon is a servant. A deacon or servant can do many things which are not in the assembly, surely you know that. Now ALL you have to do is show where Phoebe performed her service in the assembly. You can't do it. My wife is a servant, yet never does what you intimate. Yes, find Phoebe in the assembly teaching, preaching and serving the communion ect. if you can. I'm waiting.
BTW---One of my sons is a deacon in his congregation in Houston yet he has never performed his duty as such in the assembly and he is indeed a man. A deacon may or may not perform in the assembly but you have yet to find that Phoebe or any other of her gender did such in the assembly.
AirDancer
Member
Thank you, Webb, for your description of deacon. Yes, I know what a deacon is ... wondered if you did because of the question you asked about Phoebe. Since I don't know where you are in your personal walk, I didn't want to assume anything. So again, thank you.
The reason why I spent a wee bit of focused writing about Phoebe is the uniqueness of the description. It was rarely mentioned (twice) when describing a female.
The typical description of deacon includes works within a church/assembly. Since she was singled out as a deacon, her role within the assembly at Cenchrea was more than a bench warmer. As for a finite description of her duties, there isn't much there. But, for that matter, there are many whom Paul named who were not further described for their duties, whether they were male or female.
The ones he names are called beloved, fellow labourers/workers,fellow prisoners, fellow soldiers, helper, labourer, workers. It would have definitely been more interesting if we had more info directly from within the pages of the Bible as to what these other people did in service to the early Church of Christ.
The reason why I spent a wee bit of focused writing about Phoebe is the uniqueness of the description. It was rarely mentioned (twice) when describing a female.
The typical description of deacon includes works within a church/assembly. Since she was singled out as a deacon, her role within the assembly at Cenchrea was more than a bench warmer. As for a finite description of her duties, there isn't much there. But, for that matter, there are many whom Paul named who were not further described for their duties, whether they were male or female.
The ones he names are called beloved, fellow labourers/workers,fellow prisoners, fellow soldiers, helper, labourer, workers. It would have definitely been more interesting if we had more info directly from within the pages of the Bible as to what these other people did in service to the early Church of Christ.
AirDancer
Member
There are 3 reasons why I had distinct interest in this particular Scripture that led me to study further.
1) There were 2 totally opposite view points on it;
2) In studying early church history, I came across mentions of a gentleman by the name of Origen, who lived c. 185 - 254 AD. He was acknowledged as one of the greatest Scripture scholars of the early church.
In the book "Introduction to Biblical Interpretation" (1993), by authors William W. Klein, Craig Blomberg and Robert Hubbard Jr., Origen's writings were discussed. This led my search and discussions further. Particular to this current topic we're discussing, Origen referenced that Paul was addressing the Corinthians inclusion of Jewish Oral law into their assemblies, which caused chaos, disrespect, angry discussions and disruptions.
Origen later (by a couple of hundred years or so) was called a 'heretic', although he was yet again brought back into the fold as a scholar of the early church. (He was what I call a 'revolving door recognition' scholar...it all depended upon which side of the so-called-door that church hierarchy happened to be on at the time.)
3) This reason was much more personal. My daughter lost a close friend (for a few years) because my daughter, as a guest in her friend's home, attended church with them, and she participated by saying the same prayers as the others, said 'amen' a couple of times, and sang the music. Seems as though she was the only female who did so.
The father was furious and forbade his daughter to have anything to do with my daughter; his wife was not to have further contact with us. I later learned the father was fined a fairly substantial amount because he brought in a 'heretic' female into their fold, and the 'heretic' spoke up in church.
Where was Christ's love in that church?
1) There were 2 totally opposite view points on it;
2) In studying early church history, I came across mentions of a gentleman by the name of Origen, who lived c. 185 - 254 AD. He was acknowledged as one of the greatest Scripture scholars of the early church.
In the book "Introduction to Biblical Interpretation" (1993), by authors William W. Klein, Craig Blomberg and Robert Hubbard Jr., Origen's writings were discussed. This led my search and discussions further. Particular to this current topic we're discussing, Origen referenced that Paul was addressing the Corinthians inclusion of Jewish Oral law into their assemblies, which caused chaos, disrespect, angry discussions and disruptions.
Origen later (by a couple of hundred years or so) was called a 'heretic', although he was yet again brought back into the fold as a scholar of the early church. (He was what I call a 'revolving door recognition' scholar...it all depended upon which side of the so-called-door that church hierarchy happened to be on at the time.)
3) This reason was much more personal. My daughter lost a close friend (for a few years) because my daughter, as a guest in her friend's home, attended church with them, and she participated by saying the same prayers as the others, said 'amen' a couple of times, and sang the music. Seems as though she was the only female who did so.
The father was furious and forbade his daughter to have anything to do with my daughter; his wife was not to have further contact with us. I later learned the father was fined a fairly substantial amount because he brought in a 'heretic' female into their fold, and the 'heretic' spoke up in church.
Where was Christ's love in that church?
"teach or usurp authority over the man. is not the same as silent