Women Pastors

[Lewis]

A woman received the first message from Christ after his resurrection and delivered it. Mary lingered at the tomb. Christ spoke to her and said, ‘Go tell my brethren’ (John 20-17).

It was a woman who first told the Good News, of the resurrection of Christ. And we hang everything on His resurrection, she is the first to see that empty tomb and ran back to tell the others.

I rest my case

And...what a case it is to rest!

Lewis, I overlooked the above and want to bring what you wrote to the attention of others. It says everything!

After Jesus told A WOMAN to "go tell My brethren," which to me says a great deal, He said....

• John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that He had spoken these things unto HER.

Jesus opened the eyes and ears of Mary and then told her to take what He had spoken to the others. This is just as when we, whether we are male or female, have the Holy Spirit open our eyes and ears. What He speaks to us we are to take to the brethren.....TEACH!

Yes because if it was like these others claim, a woman would have not been the first to tell that He had rose from the dead. Because Jesus would have made sure that it was a man. This makes 1 Cor 14:32 even more clear, that Paul was quoting or reading something back when he made those statements, Paul preached grace not the law.

After this chauvinistic statement Paul exclaims "What?" Paul is almost beside himself when he reads back this statement from the letter written to him. Paul is not the one making the statement. Paul is quoting from the letter. The fact Paul exclaims, "What? came the word of God out from you?" shows that the statement came from the Corinthian church, and they were claiming to exclude the women from speaking based on the Law, which they claimed was the word of God.

 

[lovely]

Lewis,

When we look at the whole chapter we see that Paul is concerned about edifying the church. He starts with speaking about the gifts, about prophecy being superior to tongues in terms of edifying the church. He then moves to order in the assembly, which is the best way to edify the church. The church at Corinth had some issues, and one of them was orderliness in the assembly. If people spoke in tongues, it was to be, at the most, three and they should have an intepreter. If there is no interpreter, then he is to be silent and speak to himself and God silently. Again, the goal is to edify the church in an orderly manner. Then, he speaks about prophecy, and two or three should do so, but others shall judge.

Then he goes to the women, and he addresses his expectations for their conduct in the assembly, saying that it is improper for them to speak in church. They were subject to the Law just as those practicing the gifts, and of course they are all under the headship of Paul as well. He writes further on that if any one considers himself spiritual or a prophet, let him recognize that the things I write are the Lord's commandment.

The scripture you are speaking about, 1 Corinthians 14:36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? Is asking two rhetorical questions, and the answer to both is 'no'. The Word of God was first preached by the Jews. It came to many nations, cultures, towns, etc. The Corinthians were trying to establish new customs for the assembly, but Paul is rebuking them saying that the Law of God is what it is for all first established by God from the Jews, and then given to the churches...not just the Corinthians who were making up their own rules.

I think what I am saying here harmonizes with other verses on the subject, and I would like to stress that we are speaking about the order in an assembly. This is where the Lord has me in my understanding. The Lord Bless you.

 

[Lewis]

Well lovely, it is time for me to bow out, tired of talking about it now. But I love you my good sister in Christ. For the years that I have been here you are always dear to my heart.

 

[lovely]

I love you in Christ too, Lewis, and I realize that we aren't always going to agree. The Lord bless you.

 

[justvisiting]

Well Lewis
We tried to tell the women, that they had spiritual liberty in the Lord...but some of them insist on being under subjection. So ladies...this is church... and only we get to teach. No, no ...don't argue. Just be quiet.
(I think that should cause enough rebellion that they might want to teach...eh Lewis.)
Some of you don't realize Paul was speaking at a time when traditions were considered doctrine. Especially, among the Jews.
Act 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
Act 16:2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
DID PAUL BELIEVE IN CIRCUMCISION? NO...N...O. This was done merely to keep the peace.
We are not under the spirit of bondage...but the Spirit of liberty...

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful (not bound by it because we are under grace) unto me, but all things are not expedient (profitable): all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I've listened to many spiritual women teach and preach...if we only listened to men...we'd be missing half the knowledge out there wouldn't we?
But if you feel like being under subjection to tradition...suit yourselves.

 

[Sparkey]

A woman received the first message from Christ after his resurrection and delivered it. Mary lingered at the tomb. Christ spoke to her and said, ‘Go tell my brethren’ (John 20-17).

It was a woman who first told the Good News, of the resurrection of Christ. And we hang everything on His resurrection, she is the first to see that empty tomb and ran back to tell the others.

I rest my case

And...what a case it is to rest!

Lewis, I overlooked the above and want to bring what you wrote to the attention of others. It says everything!

After Jesus told A WOMAN to "go tell My brethren," which to me says a great deal, He said....

• John 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that He had spoken these things unto HER.

Jesus opened the eyes and ears of Mary and then told her to take what He had spoken to the others. This is just as when we, whether we are male or female, have the Holy Spirit open our eyes and ears. What He speaks to us we are to take to the brethren.....TEACH!

I tried to make a point earlier in thread and perhaps because I refuse to become part of the general din that is being sounded it looks like it was ignored. Let me now raise my voice again and proclaim that "Teaching" and the Office of "Teaching" is different than mere speaking, or preaching or witnessing.

WOMEN ARE NOT DEMEANED IN THE BIBLE NOR BY GOD:
The above example of the Lord selecting a woman to be His witness and tell others about such an important thing as His Resurrection is in direct conflict with the custom at the time to not allow a woman to testify in any court. A woman could not be considered a legal witness. Yet here, the Lord shows again what is right. The bible consistently and remarkably demonstrates and elevates the position of "woman" even from the beginning. Unto whom was the promise made? Was it not made prophetically unto the seed of the WOMAN? Indeed it was. See her seed - Gen 3:14-15 Unto whom is given the authority to become "sons of God"? Is this selected to mean "male" only? Who will be walking with Him and joined unto Jesus? Is this not the "Bride" mentioned in the Revelation of Jesus to John the Apostle? Will "males" be excluded from this "Bride"? Is there any gender in heaven? Now, that is not to say that while "today" is still called "today", and while we are living here on this earth, that there is no such thing as gender. Look in the mirror if you doubt the physical reality of this truth. Consider the fact that was established by God in His wisdom as we were each formed in the womb. Some are indeed male and some are indeed female (now). But then? When we depart this "temple", this "tent"? When we who are pilgrims and not true citizens but are members of the Kingdom of Christ receive our reward? We are oftentimes admonished to use the "eyes of faith" while we journey and sojourn here. This does not confuse us. Really, it doesn't. If any lack wisdom regarding these things, let them set aside the dispute and seek the remedy. Let them ask of God who gives liberally and without reproach. He gives wisdom freely and doesn't say, "Hey! What did you do with the last Wisdom I gave you??" He gives without reproach.

REGARDING THE ADMONITION TO THE CHURCH AT CORINTH:
Regarding the dispute found in-thread about Paul's letter to Corinth; If I went into any church and started to make a commotion that disrupted the move of the Holy Spirit in that assembly I would expect to be admonished, "Let all things be done in order, brother." If I continued and persisted, my expectation would be that I would be rebuked, "Brother, please! Let all things be done for edifying - not to disrupt!" If I collected others to my cause and started a general rebellion against the move of the Holy Spirit (either knowingly or not) and there was such a commotion raised, such a ruckus raised, by our constantly asking questions that when others came into the church they would scratch their heads -- and then add to that another attempt at disruption --this time coming under the guise of spirituality --and others were speaking in tongues all the time to the effect that when the unlearned came in they scratched their heads and said, "What? Are they mad??" --> well, I could then expect to be directed to the epistle of Paul and strongly commanded to cease from such activity, right? "Learn in private brother!" and "Let all things be done for edifying and in order."

Okay --what does that have to do with anything regarding the biblical principles taught in the letters to Timothy and what does that have to do with anything regarding what is taught about the offices of Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist and Teacher? Can we nullify the clear meaning of the word of God? What is "Teaching"? Is it mere discussion between students? If I were a student and I went to the Master, a Rabbi - who occupied the office of Teacher, ordained by God, and both me and another student listened to that Master teach on the general subject of "ministry" or "service" --would that make me a Teacher? Would I be usurping if I said, "Helps and Service are good. The Lord has said that those who aspire to be great in Heaven must seek to serve others."

Is that Teaching (Capitol "T") or usurping a Master Teacher? Is that (the example above) what the bible means when we are admonished to "let there be teachers (Masters) few, knowing that unto them is judgment double?"

TEACHING: WHERE IS THE BALANCE?

• [list:2vs2z61r]Okay, I can almost hear others say, "Is that so, brother?" -and- "Is that what the Bible teaches?"
  Okay, maybe it doesn't say "double" but there is clear admonishment to that effect:
  

  - My brethren, be not many masters [Greek: didaskalos = teachers], knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
  
  - For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
  
  - Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
  
  - Behold also the ships, which though [they be] so great, and [are] driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
  
  - Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

  You're point is well taken.
  I too need to harness my tongue to the truth and the simple teaching of the Word of Truth.

[/list:u:2vs2z61r]

"Master" -and/or- "Rabbi" are titles used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honor them when not addressing them). Let us NOT simply scroll down through the Scriptures referenced but give due diligence to consideration of the Word of Truth as we continue to discuss those things taught by the Holy Spirit through our more sure word:

Psa 119:99 KJV - I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies [are] my meditation.

Pro 5:13 KJV - And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me!

Isa 43:27 KJV - Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

1Cr 12:28 KJV - And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1Cr 12:29 KJV - [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?

Eph 4:11 KJV - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Tts 2:3 KJV - The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

Hbr 5:12 KJV - For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hab 2:18 KJV - What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

Jhn 3:2 KJV - The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Rom 2:20 KJV - An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

1Ti 2:7 KJV - Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2Ti 1:11 KJV - Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

• Jhn 13:13 KJV - Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.
  
  [list:2vs2z61r]
• Jhn 13:14 KJV - If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
  [/*:m:2vs2z61r]
• Jhn 13:15 KJV - For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
  [/*:m:2vs2z61r]
• Jhn 13:16 KJV - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
  [/*:m:2vs2z61r]
• Jhn 13:17 KJV - If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.[/*:m:2vs2z61r]

[/*:m:2vs2z61r][/list:u:2vs2z61r]

- Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

[*]- Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

• - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
  [/*:m:2vs2z61r]
• - Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her.
  [/*:m:2vs2z61r]
• - Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
  [/*:m:2vs2z61r]
• - And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.[/*:m:2vs2z61r]

*Sparrow lowers his voice, lowers his head and prays that the Lord will answer the questions that each member of this forum has to the effect that we are better equipped to join together as we continue to trust in our Lord and Savior. As we continue to trust the fact that all knowledge is hidden in Jesus and that all doctrine will be revealed to us as we simply walk toward him --and continue to depart from all evil.

Isa 28:9 KJV - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts?

Judge us Lord, let our hearts be found within Your scales that we might know that You alone are God.

There is enmity between the Spirit and the World. Although the world would try to drive a wedge between brothers and sisters the Word of God is our guide. Let us who are able to walk, who are established in the meat of the word, who are equipped unto the pulling down of strongholds continuously look to Him with our God-trust and believe the simple teaching of the pure word of truth.
:amen

 

[jasoncran]

good point i forgot that in jewish and roman law a woman cant be a witness. even in islamic republics is still that way.

jason

 

[justvisiting]

I can only say after reading some of this, that I am glad for the women that actually weren't bound by laws and traditions, but acted as God would have them. To me this is really sad, to argue whether a woman could be a teacher or even a minister. What about missionaries? I am sure there are situations where male missionaries are not available. I mean really...God uses whoever He can. Jesus was teaching...as a child.
Even the early apostles came from Jewish backgrounds...and Jews have a history of legalistic traditions.
If a woman preacher became too overbearing, I am sure her congregation would let her know...the same if a male preacher became overbearing.
Don't you think God is more interested in accomplishing something...than this absurdity of what is your gender. I mean really...Huldah, Anna (prophetess), Esther, Ruth, Hannah (Samuel's mother that gave him to the Lord), Deborah, Dorcas (raised from the dead), Elizabeth (prophecied over Christ...John the Baptist's mother), Mary (Jesus mother), Mary Magdalene (first to see the Lord after resurrection), Phebe (commended by Paul and given authority) ,Priscilla (expounded the whole gospel to Apollos), Eunice (Timothy's mother),Lydia (seller of purple, a jewish proselyte).
May I suggest that these early women saints, as well as the men...did far greater things than just hold the office of a minister...and by the way...a prophet or prophetess is second in line to an Apostle.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
I find the legalism of this matter of allowing them to work for God stupid. I guess some of you might allow them to preach or teach when we are all resurrected...neither male, nor female...but as the angels.
God will use who He chooses, when the situation arises...that may even be a child...as Samuel.

 

[Lewis]

I can only say after reading some of this, that I am glad for the women that actually weren't bound by laws and traditions, but acted as God would have them. To me this is really sad, to argue whether a woman could be a teacher or even a minister. What about missionaries? I am sure there are situations where male missionaries are not available. I mean really...God uses whoever He can. Jesus was teaching...as a child.
Even the early apostles came from Jewish backgrounds...and Jews have a history of legalistic traditions.
If a woman preacher became too overbearing, I am sure her congregation would let her know...the same if a male preacher became overbearing.
Don't you think God is more interested in accomplishing something...than this absurdity of what is your gender. I mean really...Huldah, Anna (prophetess), Esther, Ruth, Hannah (Samuel's mother that gave him to the Lord), Deborah, Dorcas (raised from the dead), Elizabeth (prophecied over Christ...John the Baptist's mother), Mary (Jesus mother), Mary Magdalene (first to see the Lord after resurrection), Phebe (commended by Paul and given authority) ,Priscilla (expounded the whole gospel to Apollos), Eunice (Timothy's mother),Lydia (seller of purple, a jewish proselyte).
May I suggest that these early women saints, as well as the men...did far greater things than just hold the office of a minister...and by the way...a prophet or prophetess is second in line to an Apostle.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
I find the legalism of this matter of allowing them to work for God stupid. I guess some of you might allow them to preach or teach when we are all resurrected...neither male, nor female...but as the angels.
God will use who He chooses, when the situation arises...that may even be a child...as Samuel.

Dude, that was a great post.

 

[whirlwind]

• Jhn 13:13 KJV - Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.
  
  [list:qroe5bsy]
• Jhn 13:14 KJV - If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
  [/*:m:qroe5bsy]
• Jhn 13:15 KJV - For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
  [/*:m:qroe5bsy]
• Jhn 13:16 KJV - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
  [/*:m:qroe5bsy]
• Jhn 13:17 KJV - If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.[/*:m:qroe5bsy]

[/*:m:qroe5bsy][/list:u:qroe5bsy]

In the words of Lewis....DUDE...That was a great post! :yes

All of it was great but the above verses you chose are especially vibrant to me. They don't answer the question of the male or female debate but how beautiful the words are. We are His feet and we shall stand with Him, with Him in us....

• Zechariah 14:4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof.......

As He washes us clean with His truth, we in turn wash others with His truths. He is our example and I follow Him in that. He leads me to follow Him in that and....I am happy!

Editing in....I learned that deeper truth about exactly who the feet of Christ are...from a wonderful teacher. And I thank HER!