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Merry Menagerie
Guest
Just wondering what your thoughts of Paul's instructions against women teaching or having authority over a man being relevant for today's society.
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BronzeStray
Guest
I don't believe it's relevant today. Women are not property anymore, and thus some moral codes are bound to change over-time. Women aren't inferior as to not be permitted to teach the word of God.
Women Preachers??
I believe that Paul's teaching on women having authority over men is still valid, and it has nothing to do with women being 'property'. (Gal. 3:28, 1 Cor. 11:11-13) It has to do with the spiritual headship being given to man by God. And this was Paul's own argument. (1 Cor. 11:1-3 Eph. 5:22-24) This does not mean that the woman is less than the man, it simply points out spiritual subordination. Women teachers are marvelous, and have thier place in the church, but it's not behind the pulpit as an elder or pastor.
In Christ,
Matthew
I believe that Paul's teaching on women having authority over men is still valid, and it has nothing to do with women being 'property'. (Gal. 3:28, 1 Cor. 11:11-13) It has to do with the spiritual headship being given to man by God. And this was Paul's own argument. (1 Cor. 11:1-3 Eph. 5:22-24) This does not mean that the woman is less than the man, it simply points out spiritual subordination. Women teachers are marvelous, and have thier place in the church, but it's not behind the pulpit as an elder or pastor.
In Christ,
Matthew
J
jess321
Guest
i hate having to say this but you have a point though i have heard many women preachers and evangelist that are wonderful and they spread the word just as well if not better than most men!
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bmeasure
Guest
Re: Women Preachers??
I do want to say that I don't have all the answers, but I can tell you that my wife and I have dealt with many of these questions before, because she was ordained with the Assemblies of God, and I was brand new to the church that she had been serving in for a long time already. It was a bit awkward to join her in ministry in something I am not qualified for and had no previous experience. She, thankfully, was very willing to submit to divinely appointed authority and we worked through it with little struggle. I also had to be willing to accept that she held knowledge that was valuable and to not seek her councel in decisions, technique, and Scripture was an effort in stupidity. God had given me a wealth of knowledge and experience through her and I could only be wise to tap into it. There is nothing wrong with seeking wise councel and help from women who have more knowledge and tallent than we (as men) have. Kings have been using councellors forever. Even God instructs to surround ourselves with wise councel. It was actually more difficult dealing with the other people in the church who respected her authority, but not mine now that I was in that role.
For any women in ministry or desiring ministry roles, I want to state: Go for it! God has given you a desire for His work and there are few enough workers going into the fields as is. Don't let traditions of men hold you back from doing what God has called you to. I do also say, in balance, that to remain in the call of God is to remain under any covering of authority God has placed in your life. This is why God teaches not to be unequally yoked. This isn't just with unbelievers, but with spiritually immature people as well. Why, as a woman serving God, would you marry someone who has no desire for ministry, is weak willed and won't step up with authority (in love), or who won't challenge you to be better than you are? If you are not already married, be very cautious as to who you join with. You will only cause yourself grief by either trying to do ministry and run a house as the "head", or by quenching the Spirit and not operating in your ministry calling. God bless and let us all preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
There are a few excellent points in this post. First off, women are plainly taught to submit to their husbands, as well as in other areas (like in church). Now I do think that our society has changed in ways which now allow a woman to speak in church for instance. I don't believe however that society will ever change to mean that a woman doesn't come under the covering of her husband and submit to him. This is probably so contraversial today because there are many female pastors and preachers today. I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with woment becoming preachers (not pastors) and being ordained. There is nothing wrong with leading youth or childrens ministries, being missionaries, prophets (like Moses' sister Miriam), and hold many other roles in the church. However, I do think there is a problem with female pastors (which lead whole congregations) and possibly even holding "elder" or decon positions. These roles are very obvious in that they show a position of authority over the rest of the congregation, including the men. One good example of an uncommon (unorthodox) setup would be Joyce Meyers. Her husband is actually the head leader of the church and she submits to his authority, but she does the head preaching! She has obviously been gifted in a preaching capacity, and it would be foolishness to stifle or supress a powerful speaker of the Word of God. The problems we run into are when women become head of the household, or take the reigns of the ministry above their husbands. This has nothing to do with belittling women's role in a ministry or marriage. They are AWESOME and do too much to name for the Kingdom of God and for their families. This has to do with following a divinely inspired guideline of authority. If you try to bypass the guidelines God has set for us, you are heading for trouble.Diaconeo said:
I do want to say that I don't have all the answers, but I can tell you that my wife and I have dealt with many of these questions before, because she was ordained with the Assemblies of God, and I was brand new to the church that she had been serving in for a long time already. It was a bit awkward to join her in ministry in something I am not qualified for and had no previous experience. She, thankfully, was very willing to submit to divinely appointed authority and we worked through it with little struggle. I also had to be willing to accept that she held knowledge that was valuable and to not seek her councel in decisions, technique, and Scripture was an effort in stupidity. God had given me a wealth of knowledge and experience through her and I could only be wise to tap into it. There is nothing wrong with seeking wise councel and help from women who have more knowledge and tallent than we (as men) have. Kings have been using councellors forever. Even God instructs to surround ourselves with wise councel. It was actually more difficult dealing with the other people in the church who respected her authority, but not mine now that I was in that role.
For any women in ministry or desiring ministry roles, I want to state: Go for it! God has given you a desire for His work and there are few enough workers going into the fields as is. Don't let traditions of men hold you back from doing what God has called you to. I do also say, in balance, that to remain in the call of God is to remain under any covering of authority God has placed in your life. This is why God teaches not to be unequally yoked. This isn't just with unbelievers, but with spiritually immature people as well. Why, as a woman serving God, would you marry someone who has no desire for ministry, is weak willed and won't step up with authority (in love), or who won't challenge you to be better than you are? If you are not already married, be very cautious as to who you join with. You will only cause yourself grief by either trying to do ministry and run a house as the "head", or by quenching the Spirit and not operating in your ministry calling. God bless and let us all preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
V
von
Guest
women preaching.
The Word of God doesn't change with society, sorry. Women are to teach other women and children. They are not to get up behind the pulpit and preach. The reason being, I Tim. 2:11-15. For some reason people skip verses 13 & 14. Also, I Cor. 14:37, it is a commandment. You will all probably hate me after this but I Tim. 3 says a bishop is to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband. This totally excludes Joyce Myers since she has been married more than once. I'm not saying that she doesn't say some good things but God does not call someone to do something that in His Word he says no to.
It does not degrade or lesson women to be in subjection, and by the way it is not being under subjection when your husband is the leader of the church and tells you that you can preach. God says, No! Women who feel like they play a different role since it is a different day are being rebellious once they learn the Word of God. The Feminist Movement has destroyed our society. Because of the feminists we no longer have prayer in school and becuse of them our unborn babies are being murdered every day.
Yes women prophesied but never in the church.
The Word of God doesn't change with society, sorry. Women are to teach other women and children. They are not to get up behind the pulpit and preach. The reason being, I Tim. 2:11-15. For some reason people skip verses 13 & 14. Also, I Cor. 14:37, it is a commandment. You will all probably hate me after this but I Tim. 3 says a bishop is to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband. This totally excludes Joyce Myers since she has been married more than once. I'm not saying that she doesn't say some good things but God does not call someone to do something that in His Word he says no to.
It does not degrade or lesson women to be in subjection, and by the way it is not being under subjection when your husband is the leader of the church and tells you that you can preach. God says, No! Women who feel like they play a different role since it is a different day are being rebellious once they learn the Word of God. The Feminist Movement has destroyed our society. Because of the feminists we no longer have prayer in school and becuse of them our unborn babies are being murdered every day.
Yes women prophesied but never in the church.
V
von
Guest
First of all.why wouldn't mean what it says? Why do people take the scriptures and say that it doesn't mean what it says.
What about Moses and David? They repented and "turned away" from their sins. And don't forget Moses never made it to the Promised Land and David lost his child.
Can you show me a place where women prophesied in the church? How could they, they weren't even allowed to speak.
I know, you want to tell me a big story about how the men sat on one side and the women on the other and they hollered back and forth to their husbands. When it says because Adam was formed first and Eve was the one deceived, it has nothing to do with hollering across the church.
Why can't people take the scriptures for what they say? Oh, I know, it's not convenient.
What about Moses and David? They repented and "turned away" from their sins. And don't forget Moses never made it to the Promised Land and David lost his child.
Can you show me a place where women prophesied in the church? How could they, they weren't even allowed to speak.
I know, you want to tell me a big story about how the men sat on one side and the women on the other and they hollered back and forth to their husbands. When it says because Adam was formed first and Eve was the one deceived, it has nothing to do with hollering across the church.
Why can't people take the scriptures for what they say? Oh, I know, it's not convenient.
A
Amity
Guest
Merry Menagerie said:
Yes, it is relevant.
In Christian love,
Lewis
Member
That old custom is out the window now. God can not be put into a box, he will use anybody he wants. And he has always used women to do certain things.
Now some of these women preachers of today like Paula White, you can just see and feel the Holy Ghost using her just as well as the Holy ghost coming through T.D. Jakes, many, many people are being led to the Lord by women because God is using them to do so, and God is blessing these women not cursing these women. The first one to see the risen Christ was a woman if it mattered that much to God it would have been a man, Deborah, and Ruth, these are books of women being used by God. Rahab Jesus came through her, and what about Pricilla of the New Testament. What I am trying to say is that God uses whom ever He wants. And a lot of these little things like this can take your focus off of Christ. And another thing there are more women in the church than men, why because women are more accepting of God than a lot of men. A lot of men come to Christ through their wives, sure their are a lot of men in the church, but not like the women. And God uses these women.
So that is a old custom, and it is out the window, it was the custom of that day, and not a commandment.
Now some of these women preachers of today like Paula White, you can just see and feel the Holy Ghost using her just as well as the Holy ghost coming through T.D. Jakes, many, many people are being led to the Lord by women because God is using them to do so, and God is blessing these women not cursing these women. The first one to see the risen Christ was a woman if it mattered that much to God it would have been a man, Deborah, and Ruth, these are books of women being used by God. Rahab Jesus came through her, and what about Pricilla of the New Testament. What I am trying to say is that God uses whom ever He wants. And a lot of these little things like this can take your focus off of Christ. And another thing there are more women in the church than men, why because women are more accepting of God than a lot of men. A lot of men come to Christ through their wives, sure their are a lot of men in the church, but not like the women. And God uses these women.
So that is a old custom, and it is out the window, it was the custom of that day, and not a commandment.
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
Women werent' allowed to speak because they would yell out to their husbands and ask questions. So they were told to keep silent and ask their husbands at home. So if women are silent and not yelling out then they're doing the right thing. Prophecy and preaching are totally different...this is not what Paul was addressing. He was addressing disorderly behaviour.
The Holy spirit uses who he wills...there is neither bond nor free, Jew or Greek MALE OR FEMALE in the body of Christ WE ARE ALL ONE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.
The Holy spirit uses who he wills...there is neither bond nor free, Jew or Greek MALE OR FEMALE in the body of Christ WE ARE ALL ONE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.
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Merry Menagerie
Guest
According to history, men and women sat on either side of the synogogue. Women were not well educated and would have a hard time understanding the preacher so would yell out to their husbands on the other side of the room "Hey Bill, what does that mean?" Thus disrupting the service.
Paul asked them to be silent and ask their husbands at home for this reason.
Paul asked them to be silent and ask their husbands at home for this reason.
S
Solo
Guest
Why would the Word of God be different today then it was yesterday?
What portion of the following scriptures would be ok to not obey today?
What part of the roles of man and woman have changed and for what purpose have they changed?
For God's will or man's will or woman's will?
If man is no longer the head of woman, is Jesus no longer the head of man?
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:1-3
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. 1 Timothy 2:11-14
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:15-17
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Ephesians 5:21-33
What portion of the following scriptures would be ok to not obey today?
What part of the roles of man and woman have changed and for what purpose have they changed?
For God's will or man's will or woman's will?
If man is no longer the head of woman, is Jesus no longer the head of man?
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:1-3
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. 1 Timothy 2:11-14
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:15-17
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Ephesians 5:21-33
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Solo said:
Sputnik: Are you not one of those, Solo, who believe that 'grace' has pretty well superceded the Word of God? Correct me if I'm wrong, but would you not fight 'hammer and nail' against the necessity of continued adherence to God's Moral Law by virtue of now being saved by grace? If so, your above statement concerning the necessity of continued adherence to 'mere ordinances' is most interesting.
S
Solo
Guest
Grace is revealed in the Word of God, Sput ole boy.SputnikBoy said:
God's Law has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ, and now the looking at women with lust in one's eye is adultery.
The scripture presented in the previous post is as relevant today as it was when Paul penned it.
When you come to believe in the Word of God, you will understand the Word of God. Until then you are just tredding time.
V
von
Guest
No, the women did not sit on one side and the men on the other, the women were in a whole different section, seperated from the men. And Paul is most definitely speaking of women. Whay do you continually refer to one verse, I Cor. 14:34-35? How about verse 37? The whole chapter is addressed to brethren. Not brethren and sisters. Not until the end.
How about I Tim. 2: 13, 14? You think it more than likely doesn't mean what I take it to mean. Well then maybe you can kindly interpret it, Merry.
As for you Lewis, yes, Mary was the first to see Jesus, but she didn't preach. Yes, God does use women, but they are not to take a place of authority in the church. Read Numbers 22. Why didn't God use a woman there? My final thought. I Cor.14:38. You can't take part of the scripture and not all.
How about I Tim. 2: 13, 14? You think it more than likely doesn't mean what I take it to mean. Well then maybe you can kindly interpret it, Merry.
As for you Lewis, yes, Mary was the first to see Jesus, but she didn't preach. Yes, God does use women, but they are not to take a place of authority in the church. Read Numbers 22. Why didn't God use a woman there? My final thought. I Cor.14:38. You can't take part of the scripture and not all.
von,
This is something I have posted a few times in these forums:
Regarding 1 Tim. 2:9-15:
"9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."
Let's look at the context. This particular context isn't necessarily the biblical context, but rather the social context, the reason Paul wrote what he did.
As 1 Tim. 1:3 points out, Timothy is in Ephesus which is where the fertility goddess, Artemis, was worshipped. The priestesses who led her worship had the saving knowledge and only gave it to those who submitted to them. Men who served in the temple were castrated and made subject to the temple.
To ask for blessing on crops, livestock, and family, worshippers would place fine clothes, jewelry, and other costly gifts on the statue of Artemis. Women would also ask for help in conception, pregnancy, and delivery.
And this fits the passage better than anything I have ever heard. The Artemis cult was infiltrating the Church in Ephesus. Paul says woman was deceived first, lowering women's status to that of men and proving that they have no special divine insight that men don't have. Paul tells the women to dress modestly, not in the clothes of the Artemis cult.
Now teaching. The women were used to having the divine revelation and spiritual authority over men. Paul simply won't let women teach until they submit themselves to learning the Faith in silence. This is not a general statement that women can't ever teach, Paul is simply speaking to a very specific situation to put the women in their rightful place, as equals with men, and then they can teach.
To further support this view, 1 Tim. 2:15 is a very odd verse that really doesn't fit any other view. Women will be kept safe in childbearing by turning to Christ, not Artemis. Faith in Christ, not costly gifts for Artemis.
That is the most logical and reasonable explanation of that passage. It fits everything right down to verse 15.
This is something I have posted a few times in these forums:
Regarding 1 Tim. 2:9-15:
"9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."
Let's look at the context. This particular context isn't necessarily the biblical context, but rather the social context, the reason Paul wrote what he did.
As 1 Tim. 1:3 points out, Timothy is in Ephesus which is where the fertility goddess, Artemis, was worshipped. The priestesses who led her worship had the saving knowledge and only gave it to those who submitted to them. Men who served in the temple were castrated and made subject to the temple.
To ask for blessing on crops, livestock, and family, worshippers would place fine clothes, jewelry, and other costly gifts on the statue of Artemis. Women would also ask for help in conception, pregnancy, and delivery.
And this fits the passage better than anything I have ever heard. The Artemis cult was infiltrating the Church in Ephesus. Paul says woman was deceived first, lowering women's status to that of men and proving that they have no special divine insight that men don't have. Paul tells the women to dress modestly, not in the clothes of the Artemis cult.
Now teaching. The women were used to having the divine revelation and spiritual authority over men. Paul simply won't let women teach until they submit themselves to learning the Faith in silence. This is not a general statement that women can't ever teach, Paul is simply speaking to a very specific situation to put the women in their rightful place, as equals with men, and then they can teach.
To further support this view, 1 Tim. 2:15 is a very odd verse that really doesn't fit any other view. Women will be kept safe in childbearing by turning to Christ, not Artemis. Faith in Christ, not costly gifts for Artemis.
That is the most logical and reasonable explanation of that passage. It fits everything right down to verse 15.