Work For A Free Gift?

[JLB]

I agree Abraham was justified by what he did,

Good.

But James said faith was completed by works. He doesn't say faith is a work.

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JLB

 

[MarkT]

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[JLB]

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[childeye]

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[JLB]

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[MarkT]

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[MarkT]

Do you know what a covenant is? It's like a contract. God will forgive us our sins provided we forgive others. This is a work of faith that we forgive. God will show us mercy provided we show others mercy. This is a work of faith that we show mercy. God will not judge us provided we do not judge others. Again it is a work of faith that we do not judge. What does God want from us aside from mercy and forgiveness? He wants us to seek him. And this is something we do by faith. In the OT we see how the Israelites broke faith with the LORD. Lev. 6:2 Numbers 5:6 So a breach of faith can be seen to be like breaking a contract.

 

[JLB]

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[childeye]

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[JLB]

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[MarkT]

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[MarkT]

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[JLB]

To all watching this thread -


The obedience of turning to God (repent) continues to the end of our faith.

During that time, if we turn back,
(Un-repent) which is called falling away, or turning away or as Peter says - "RETURN"... Turn from.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from[unrepent] the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

Peter reiterates what he is teaching in the proverb...vs 22

But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


Paul says it this way.., using the same Greek word as Jesus, from the parable of the sower.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14

And again -

13 the ones on the rock are thosewho, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away...
Luke 8:13

We believe the Gospel, when we obey the Gospel holy command to repent.

This is what Adam failed to believe, therefore this is what Adam failed to obey...

Adam turned from God to Satan to obey him, which is why he disobeyed God and ate thereof from the tree...

Believe = Obey

Edited reba

JLB

 

[Seabass]

I can't think of any place in the Bible where work doesn't mean deed. So believing is not a work.

There is no verse that says "believing is not a work".

On judgment day we are told God will "render unto every man according to his deeds".

Those saved will be those who have done the deed of believing.

(Once again: From the A&T guidelines; "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies. Obadiah)


QUESTION: Is "belief only" a deed?

 

[Seabass]

Yes. Good post.

Likewise Abraham obeyed the Voice of God to get out of his own country... Which was the condition that God Himself predicated for Abraham to be blessed;

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3

It is the action of obedience; the obedient response to the voice of God that pleases him.

Faith without this work of obedience can please God, nor can it save.


JLB

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Did the work in building the ark earn the saving of Noah's house? No. It was by grace but that grace conditionally required the work of building the ark.

 

[Seabass]

If we are paying attentions to what is being factually conveyed, we'd see 2 vessels in the same lump. One sins, the other doesn't. This eradicates any confusions. Romans 9:17-23, 2 Tim. 2:20-21, Matt. 16:23, John 13:23, Luke 22:3, John 8:44, Acts 26:18 etc. etc.

The flesh is subject to the intrusion and deceptions of the tempter within same to tempt. Condemnation, blame and accusation-> of the tempter<- is, in large part of that working of the tempter-> "in believers."

Believers who think they can make the tempter legal, obedient, faithful, under Grace, eradicated by the exercises of religious routines or by any other methodology are wasting their time.

This "exercise of religious routines" as you call it is what the bible calls obeying the will of God..doing righteouseness and without this work of righteousness one remains unrighteous and not of God. 1 Jn 3:10.

In Rom 6:18 Paul told those to whom he was writing they had "become slaves unto righteousness". It is not possible for one to become a slave/servant to some thing he does not do. Can one become a slave to cigarette smoking if he does not smoke? No. Likewise it is not possible for one to become a slave to righteousness without DOING righteousness. Paul is proving that the only way to become a slave to righteousness is by DOING righteousness and one remains a slave to unrighteousness as long as he does not do righteousness. SO certainly those Romans were not wasting ther time by working righteousness for that work saved them, it freed them from sin making them servants of righteousness. Rom 6:17,18


[quotesmaller]
Rather, be honest before our Maker, and deal with this matter personally, factually, recognizing the problems of sin/evil/death and from whom it stems. And from that working, we are to divide and alienate ourselves as believers. This IS in our power that we have been given, TO SEE it, and to be TRUTHFUL about it. Truth is the POWER that divides us from this working. God in Christ HONORS His Truth.

All the "works" in the world will avail the tempter in the flesh exactly nothing. Psalm 6:8, Luke 16:26-28 Matt. 7:22:24

We stand before ALL the rebukes of Gods Words, accepting them fully, precisely for this reason. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4

Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Those who can not hear ALL the Words of God are still in the flesh, because of the operations of the tempter who "partly" blinds us all, yet the spirit in them is willing to hear.

As an example, regarding baptism via water, this IS a representational matter, entirely. It is not an exercise of any type of guarantee that any person will no longer be subject to the intrusions of the tempter in their flesh.

Water in the scripture is allegorical in spiritual nature to THE WORD. Eph. 5:26 Num. 20:24 Psalm 147:18 Jesus is LIVING WATER.

So there be no mistake, allegories are MORE REAL than physical reality in Gods Sights and Workings-> because these point to the spiritual matters of His Real Present Engagements in the conveyances of allegories, that being, God in Christ is ACTIVELY AGAINST sin/evil/death and the "evil agents," Satan and his messengers, through the AGAIN very real powers of MERCY, TRUTH, GRACE, FORGIVENESS, and LAW, which same is still AGAINST the wicked agents, that are not MAN, but are IN man.

When we "stand" truthfully before Him, we SEE that when we go DOWN, into Gods Waters, His Word, His Christ, His Spirit, we DIE to the flesh, even though we yet live in it. And nevertheless of this present walking death, by those same Living Words, we as believers COME UP entirely clean from those same WATERS/Word, a picture of our forthcoming Resurrection, out of this vile body of DEATH in which sin still dwells.

All of this is allegorical in nature, and shows our understanding of His Promises. It is, therefore, strictly an action of faith. But the principles will not change regardless of our exercises of showing understanding by participations.

A person who has expressed their faith, simply by calling on God in Christ to save them, yet not baptized, shall be saved regardless, by the Power of God in Christ. It is the Holy Spirit within them, who has drawn them INto Christ to begin with. People do not conjure up faith on their own. It is a gift of God in Christ.

The Living Word Himself has been 'seeded' into them. And He Shall Not Fail them, no, not one. Love NEVER fails.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

When the pharisees came to be baptized, these men were rebuked by John the Baptist.

WHY?

Because DEVILS dwelt within and controlled these bad actors, according to the principles of God in Christ. Mark 4:15, John 8:44. It was not just the Pharisees who showed up, but ALSO the devils within them who had captured and blinded them in their HEARTS.

Spiritually blinded "believers" can NOT see these Spiritual principles. They themselves have been partly blinded by the same principle of Mark 4:15, and the Word has been literally, STOLEN from within them, so they can not see. A more dominant player is literally "in their temple, their body."

IF we are hearing, then we see that it was the Pharisees, who were in fact children of God as well (Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9), AND there were their demonic controllers, who had, in essence, CAPTURED their own body/temple.

Jesus Himself came to the 'temple" of DEMONIC CAPTIVITY in Jerusalem, and soundly REBUKED those evil agents therein, AND within the people! Even arousing them to the point where they KILLED Him.

Jesus came to Breathe HIS FIRE of forthcoming destruction upon them. And to "divide" His people from "their workings."

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

BLINDED people think that Jesus was speaking only to people. He was NOT!

Jesus was speaking directly to the DEVILS within those people who had blinded and captured them.[/QUOTE]

1 Jn 3:10 "... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God...."

BOth verbs "doeth" and "is" are in the resent tense. So the verse may be rendered this way:

...who so ever continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God....

The implication of the language is one MUST do righteousness if he desires to be of God.

As Peter said in Acts 10:35 he that "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God.

The 'belief only - no works' theology can only leave one short of being of God, short of being accepted with God.
No verse speaks of one being of God/accepted with God by belief only then one does works of righteousness for this idea is the total opposite of what 1 Jn 3:10 says.

It's impossible for one to ever be righteous/right doing by 'doing nothing'.

 

[Seabass]

The difference is in what follows. If we believe God is true, then we are expressing a belief. If we believe in God, we are expressing faith. It is written Abraham believed God; that is expressing trust.

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Heb. 11:1

How can one be a saved believer yet does not do the will of God?
Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

1 Thessalonians 1:3
remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

You seem to be equating words when you say faith is called a work. You are equating work with faith, faith with work.

But here Paul refers to their work of faith; work as a result of Paul preaching the gospel which they received by faith. Later he refers to the fact they received Paul and the gospel with joy and they became imitators of Paul. This is what Paul is referring to when he says, 'your work of faith'. He is referring to the fact they received the gospel and they became imitators of Paul. 1 Thess. 1:5-7.

Remembering without ceasing your work of (what kind of work?) faith, and labour of love,
THe term 'faith' describes the type of work Paul was speaking about.
Faith is a work as love is a labor..neither faith or love is 'doing nothing;.
Faith is called a work just as love is called a labor. Of faith and love are not works then the verse makes no sense at all.

And re. Mr. 2:1-5, Jesus saw they believed in him. This is why he said he, 'saw their faith'.

Jesus saw the works these men performed and calls that work "faith".

You say Jesus saw they "believed in him". What exactly does "believe in him" look like whereby it can be seen?
Is 'believe in him' round, square? Red, green or yellow? Big or little? What exactly does "believe in him' look like if it is not the works that Jesus saw and calls faith?

 

[smaller]

This "exercise of religious routines" as you call it is what the bible calls obeying the will of God..doing righteouseness and without this work of righteousness one remains unrighteous and not of God. 1 Jn 3:10.

A person can take just about anything in the scriptures and turn it into a law of condemnation, such as what you do with baptism. If you want to play the condemnation game, which Jesus PROHIBITS, that is only on you and is only a reflection of what you openly carry and convey in these matters.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So, there is "the law" that I see.

And by seeing this 'COMMAND' it is quite easy to see, also, WHO is in violation of same as well. And to "mark them" and "avoid" their condemnation trap.

In Rom 6:18 Paul told those to whom he was writing they had "become slaves unto righteousness". It is not possible for one to become a slave/servant to some thing he does not do. Can one become a slave to cigarette smoking if he does not smoke? No. Likewise it is not possible for one to become a slave to righteousness without DOING righteousness. Paul is proving that the only way to become a slave to righteousness is by DOING righteousness and one remains a slave to unrighteousness as long as he does not do righteousness. SO certainly those Romans were not wasting ther time by working righteousness for that work saved them, it freed them from sin making them servants of righteousness. Rom 6:17,18

We've covered this at length. No one ceases to be a sinner after salvation. 1 John 1:8. If anyone makes such claims, that they are either "temporarily or permanently" sinless, the Truth is not in them and they are, conversely, LIARS. So no amounts of "works" are going to over rule the fact of being a sinner.

No one "works" themselves into a state of sinlessness. It's not even on the radar of spiritual truthfulness. And again, the believers who see this fact for themselves will stop condemning when they see their "own" factual state.

Matthew 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

1 Jn 3:10 "... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God...."

BOth verbs "doeth" and "is" are in the resent tense. So the verse may be rendered this way:

...who so ever continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God....

The implication of the language is one MUST do righteousness if he desires to be of God.

As Peter said in Acts 10:35 he that "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God.

The 'belief only - no works' theology can only leave one short of being of God, short of being accepted with God.
No verse speaks of one being of God/accepted with God by belief only then one does works of righteousness for this idea is the total opposite of what 1 Jn 3:10 says.

The entire notion that a believer will NOT do righteous works by their new nature is a phony fallacy to begin with. Believers do many good things. And again, when "righteousness" gets turned into a "list of works" and an "if not" to go with it, this again has merely been turned into A LAW with the attendant CONDEMNATION.

It's just a nastry little game that psuedo religious people play. Such people really are manipulators of others that seek to exalt themselves over others and to lay on condemnation to exert their psuedo authority over believers. Shame on anyone who makes Godly Spiritual matters into their own special little LAWs with CONDEMNATION.

It's impossible for one to ever be righteous/right doing by 'doing nothing'.

I'd suggest you worry about your own works and not worry so much about condemning others for theirs. Jesus In His Own is entirely able to see us all through to the end. Whether you can see it or not would be nearly, completely irrelevant to me.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[MarkT]

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[Seabass]

A person can take just about anything in the scriptures and turn it into a law of condemnation, such as what you do with baptism. If you want to play the condemnation game, which Jesus PROHIBITS, that is only on you and is only a reflection of what you openly carry and convey in these matters.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So, there is "the law" that I see.

And by seeing this 'COMMAND' it is quite easy to see, also, WHO is in violation of same as well. And to "mark them" and "avoid" their condemnation trap.



We've covered this at length. No one ceases to be a sinner after salvation. 1 John 1:8. If anyone makes such claims, that they are either "temporarily or permanently" sinless, the Truth is not in them and they are, conversely, LIARS. So no amounts of "works" are going to over rule the fact of being a sinner.

No one "works" themselves into a state of sinlessness. It's not even on the radar of spiritual truthfulness. And again, the believers who see this fact for themselves will stop condemning when they see their "own" factual state.

Matthew 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.



The entire notion that a believer will NOT do righteous works by their new nature is a phony fallacy to begin with. Believers do many good things. And again, when "righteousness" gets turned into a "list of works" and an "if not" to go with it, this again has merely been turned into A LAW with the attendant CONDEMNATION.

It's just a nastry little game that psuedo religious people play. Such people really are manipulators of others that seek to exalt themselves over others and to lay on condemnation to exert their psuedo authority over believers. Shame on anyone who makes Godly Spiritual matters into their own special little LAWs with CONDEMNATION.



I'd suggest you worry about your own works and not worry so much about condemning others for theirs. Jesus In His Own is entirely able to see us all through to the end. Whether you can see it or not would be nearly, completely irrelevant to me.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Jesus requires believing to be saved, then that makes believing part of Christ's law therefore those that do not obey the law by believing will be condemned Mk 16:16.
Yet Jesus did not stop with requiring believing and nothing else but also required repentance, Lk 13:3 confession MAtt 10:32,33 and baptism Mk 16:16 making these also part of Christ's NT law and failure to obey these laws leads to condemnation. Jesus spake far more word that what is found in Jn 5:24 and the words 'believe only" are not in Jn 5:24.

You post "I'd suggest you worry about your own works and not worry so much about condemning others for theirs."

People CONDEMN THEMSELVES by not obeying Christ's NT law and I am encouraging people to quit condemning themselves but submit unto the will of God.