Work For A Free Gift?

[MarkT]

Being born again is when one is water baptized and I did include that in my post:

Jn 3:16--------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Lk 13:3,5------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Rom 10:9,10------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>unto salvation
Mk 16:16------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

John baptized a whole lot of people. Were they all born again? Did they all believe in Jesus? Did water baptism save those who did not believe? No.

Asking God to forgive us is important, but first you have to believe God exists, and he sent his Son Jesus to give us the words of life. Without the words of life, you can not be born again.

 

[Drew]

Jesus clearly said to LABOUR for the food that abides unto everlasting life, which He GIVES.

I suspect that you and many others will take umbrage with my position. It is that we "post-reformation" protestants have misread the New Testament as saying that "works don't count" in relation to attaining eternal life.

I suggest that, in addition to the passage you provide, a number of other passages support the notion that we need "works" for final salvation. Romans 2 comes to mind - watch the backflips people will do to make that passage say something other than what (I believe) it plainly says.

Now, this is not the whole story but I will pick that up later if anyone responds to me.

 

[Drew]

One can obey the Son without believing on the Son. It is similar in concept to:

Rom 2:14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a lawunto themselves:​

I am prepared to make the case that, when context is considered, Romans 2:14 is talking about believing Gentiles. However, in saying this, I am not disagreeing with your claim that "one can obey the Son without believing on the Son" - I think you are right about this.

I know that it's a "sin" to "appeal to authority" in a discussion, but I will dare to point out that highly respected "conservative" theologian NT Wright has argued that Romans 2:14 is about Gentile believers. And more to the point, he argues that good works are indeed needed for final salvation. But, to be fair to him, his position on this matter requires a lot of additional qualification.

 

[MarkT]

Believing and faith come from the same Greek root word believing being used as a verb and faith as a noun.

Eph 2:8---------faith>>>>>>>>>>saves
Jn 3:16---------belief>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3---------repentance>>>>>>saves
Rom 10:9------confession>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>saves

Again, since there is just ONE way to be saved, then FAITH must include the works of believing repenting, confession and submitting to baptism.
Nowhere does the NT gospel teach one thing alone saves by itself but mentions MANY things that save.

But the translators translated the words into faith and believing, and those two words have different meanings. We believe Jesus is the Son of God. We have faith in him. Faith in this case is like trust.

Faith is a commodity. Jesus said, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.” Mt. 17:20 And Paul goes on to say God assigns faith - each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him. Romans 12:3

Indeed our faith increases as we grow in the knowledge of God. The apostle Peter wrote to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours. 2 Peter 1:1 Faith is obtained. The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” Luke 17:5 Paul writes, 'our hope is that as your faith increases, our field among you may be greatly enlarged, 2 Cor. 10:15

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. Gal. 5:22-23

All those things you mentioned come in order. Repent, confess, hear, believe, faith. Faith comes by hearing and understanding.
'so faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ'. Romans 10:17

These things, believing and faith, are spiritual gifts, not works.

 

[smaller]

I never said a person was flawlessly sinless but one dead to sin cannot continue to live in sin.

Circular logic noted.

John said "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn 3:9. "Cannot sin" does not mean "impossible to sin" . The present tense of "cannot" denotes that a Christian cannot continue to live in sin/have sin continually dwell in him. The Christian does occasionally sin but must repent of that sin for he CANNOT continue in that sin.

Apparently cannot doesn't mean cannot then.

1) Then you ha created a contradiction that you cannot fix for it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to be both dead unto sin and have sin dwelling in him at the same time. One verse does not cancel the other verse out.

Sorry to point to your obvious claims otherwise above. You seem to want it both ways. I'm pretty much through hashing through the facts with you about Paul having evil present with him, Romans 7:21, Indwelling sin in his flesh, Romans 7:17-20, a messenger of Satan in his flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7 and being the chief of sinners after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15. These facts STAND regardless of any claims to the contrary, as written.

In addition you haven't even touched on the relationship between sin and the devil, the obvious other culprit to all matters of sin, which of course is a consistent shocker to most believers when they have to confront this connection with their own "occasional sin." 1 John 3:8.

Nor have you even mentioned that temptation of the tempter transpires "internally" placing that "worker" internal to do so, as "in mind" and "heart."

Of course, it is Paul's use of the first person present tense in these words that is regarded as the principal support of the interpretation

Uh, yeah. And as such there is no "interpretation required" to twist things in any other directions. The statements are facts, as they are stated. So, moving on. You can view these matters how you please to "interpret."

I'll take them, as stated.

 

[JLB]

What about obedience without belief?

That's how the law of Moses was kept.

The law is not of faith. Galatians 3

That's how religion is kept.

Religion is mans effort to get to God by the works of his hands, as typified by the Tower of Babel, which was the first religion, The Mother of harlots.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What do you mean by the work of obedience? James said faith without works is dead. I agree.

The issue is whether believing is a work. For example, I believe Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. Outside of reading the Bible, I didn't do anything to believe.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21-23

The work that Abraham did, was to obey the Voice of God., to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

It's called the obedience of faith.

Faith with this work of obedience is dead.

Abraham obeyed God, therefore Abraham believed God.

Adam, on the other hand believed Satan, therefore Adam obeyed Satan, and disobeyed God.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

 

[Seabass]

One can obey the Son without believing on the Son. It is similar in concept to:

Rom 2:14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a lawunto themselves:​

How can one obey the Son without believing when not believing is not obeying per Jn 3:36 ASV?
--Not believing = not obeying
--Believing = obeying

 

[Seabass]

John baptized a whole lot of people. Were they all born again? Did they all believe in Jesus? Did water baptism save those who did not believe? No.

Asking God to forgive us is important, but first you have to believe God exists, and he sent his Son Jesus to give us the words of life. Without the words of life, you can not be born again.

MK 16:16 belief is made a prerequisite to being baptized.

 

[Seabass]

I suspect that you and many others will take umbrage with my position. It is that we "post-reformation" protestants have misread the New Testament as saying that "works don't count" in relation to attaining eternal life.

I suggest that, in addition to the passage you provide, a number of other passages support the notion that we need "works" for final salvation. Romans 2 comes to mind - watch the backflips people will do to make that passage say something other than what (I believe) it plainly says.

Now, this is not the whole story but I will pick that up later if anyone responds to me.

Obeying the will of God is necessary in order to be saved and to remain saved---Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3; Mt 10:32,33; MK 16:16 in order to be saved and Eph 2:10; Matt 25:31f; Rev 2:26 works necessary to remain saved. Doing nothing gets one nowhere.

 

[Drew]

Obeying the will of God is necessary in order to be saved and to remain saved---Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3; Mt 10:32,33; MK 16:16 in order to be saved and Eph 2:10; Matt 25:31f; Rev 2:26 works necessary to remain saved. Doing nothing gets one nowhere.

I happen to agree with you, at least based on what you post here. However, I do understand why people think otherwise. Part of the reason is that is not at all obvious what a "work" is, as this term is used by Paul. Many modern Christians think he is referring to a "good work". I believe that he is referring to something much more narrow - those elements of the Law of Moses that functioned to set the Jew apart from the Gentile. So when Paul denies salvation by works, he is denying that salvation is limited to Jews; he is not denying what he otherwise affirms in Romans 2 and elsewhere - that we will ultimately be judged (with salvation in the balance) based on how we actually lived.

 

[Seabass]

But the translators translated the words into faith and believing, and those two words have different meanings. We believe Jesus is the Son of God. We have faith in him. Faith in this case is like trust.

Faith is a commodity. Jesus said, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.” Mt. 17:20 And Paul goes on to say God assigns faith - each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him. Romans 12:3

Indeed our faith increases as we grow in the knowledge of God. The apostle Peter wrote to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours. 2 Peter 1:1 Faith is obtained. The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” Luke 17:5 Paul writes, 'our hope is that as your faith increases, our field among you may be greatly enlarged, 2 Cor. 10:15

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. Gal. 5:22-23

All those things you mentioned come in order. Repent, confess, hear, believe, faith. Faith comes by hearing and understanding.
'so faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ'. Romans 10:17

These things, believing and faith, are spiritual gifts, not works.

How can belief and faith have different meanings when they come from the same Greek root word? Faith is used as a noun where believing is used as a verb and in many cases it used as an active verb denoting the subject doing the action of believing.

Again, in 1 Thess 1:3, Mk 2:1-5 faith is called a work.

 

[Seabass]

Circular logic noted.

John did not use circular logic when he said the Christian cannot sin. 1 Jn 3:9
1 Jn 1:8-10 John says Christians do sin but they cannot (present tense) continue to live in sin but must repent of their sins.

Apparently cannot doesn't mean cannot then.

Cannot does not mean impossible. The law says one cannot drive over 55mph does not mean it is impossible for one to break the law and go over 55 mph.

Sorry to point to your obvious claims otherwise above. You seem to want it both ways. I'm pretty much through hashing through the facts with you about Paul having evil present with him, Romans 7:21, Indwelling sin in his flesh, Romans 7:17-20, a messenger of Satan in his flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7 and being the chief of sinners after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15. These facts STAND regardless of any claims to the contrary, as written.

In addition you haven't even touched on the relationship between sin and the devil, the obvious other culprit to all matters of sin, which of course is a consistent shocker to most believers when they have to confront this connection with their own "occasional sin." 1 John 3:8.

Nor have you even mentioned that temptation of the tempter transpires "internally" placing that "worker" internal to do so, as "in mind" and "heart."



Uh, yeah. And as such there is no "interpretation required" to twist things in any other directions. The statements are facts, as they are stated. So, moving on. You can view these matters how you please to "interpret."

I'll take them, as stated.

It is YOU that is wanting it both ways for one to be both dead unto sin yet have sin dwelling in him at the same time. Both are not possible for one having sin dwelling in him is not dead unto sin. So you still remain with a contradicton you have created with no solution for it.

 

[Seabass]

I happen to agree with you, at least based on what you post here. However, I do understand why people think otherwise. Part of the reason is that is not at all obvious what a "work" is, as this term is used by Paul. Many modern Christians think he is referring to a "good work". I believe that he is referring to something much more narrow - those elements of the Law of Moses that functioned to set the Jew apart from the Gentile. So when Paul denies salvation by works, he is denying that salvation is limited to Jews; he is not denying what he otherwise affirms in Romans 2 and elsewhere - that we will ultimately be judged (with salvation in the balance) based on how we actually lived.

From my experience in debating with people on various religious forums for the last several years, it is my opinion that people 'think otherwise' for they are "laboring" under the false notion that free gift cannot come with condition(s) for working to meet the conditions automatically means you are trying to earn the free gift. Again, the example of Naaman shows Gods free gift of healing came with the conditions of dipping yet Naaman doing the work of dipping in no way earned the free gift. As long as one does not or refuses to understand this simple concept they cannot never get it right when it comes to bible salvation. If God's grace were completely unconditional then every single person wold be saved but the fact all will not be saved is further proof God's grace must be conditional. The example in Jn 6:27 shows that Christ 'GIVES' everlasting life, it's free but Christ also said to labor for it. This is not a contradiction for CHrist's free gift of everlasting life comes with the conditions of believing which is a work.

 

[MarkT]

I can't think of any place in the Bible where work doesn't mean deed. So believing is not a work.

 

[Obadiah]

Please remember that the guideline requiring a scripture to back points made in the A&T forum requires specific scripture. This means a chapter and verse reference along with your explanation of how that scripture supports your point. Vague references to entire chapters do not satisfy this guideline unless you can actually explain verse by verse how every verse in that chapter specifically supports your point. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

From my experience in debating with people on various religious forums for the last several years, it is my opinion that people 'think otherwise' for they are "laboring" under the false notion that free gift cannot come with condition(s) for working to meet the conditions automatically means you are trying to earn the free gift. Again, the example of Naaman shows Gods free gift of healing came with the conditions of dipping yet Naaman doing the work of dipping in no way earned the free gift. As long as one does not or refuses to understand this simple concept they cannot never get it right when it comes to bible salvation. If God's grace were completely unconditional then every single person wold be saved but the fact all will not be saved is further proof God's grace must be conditional. The example in Jn 6:27 shows that Christ 'GIVES' everlasting life, it's free but Christ also said to labor for it. This is not a contradiction for CHrist's free gift of everlasting life comes with the conditions of believing which is a work.

Yes. Good post.

Likewise Abraham obeyed the Voice of God to get out of his own country... Which was the condition that God Himself predicated for Abraham to be blessed;

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3

It is the action of obedience; the obedient response to the voice of God that pleases him.

Faith without this work of obedience can please God, nor can it save.


JLB

 

[smaller]

John did not use circular logic when he said the Christian cannot sin. 1 Jn 3:9
1 Jn 1:8-10 John says Christians do sin but they cannot (present tense) continue to live in sin but must repent of their sins.

Cannot does not mean impossible. The law says one cannot drive over 55mph does not mean it is impossible for one to break the law and go over 55 mph.

It is YOU that is wanting it both ways for one to be both dead unto sin yet have sin dwelling in him at the same time. Both are not possible for one having sin dwelling in him is not dead unto sin. So you still remain with a contradicton you have created with no solution for it.

If we are paying attentions to what is being factually conveyed, we'd see 2 vessels in the same lump. One sins, the other doesn't. This eradicates any confusions. Romans 9:17-23, 2 Tim. 2:20-21, Matt. 16:23, John 13:23, Luke 22:3, John 8:44, Acts 26:18 etc. etc.

The flesh is subject to the intrusion and deceptions of the tempter within same to tempt. Condemnation, blame and accusation-> of the tempter<- is, in large part of that working of the tempter-> "in believers."

Believers who think they can make the tempter legal, obedient, faithful, under Grace, eradicated by the exercises of religious routines or by any other methodology are wasting their time.

Rather, be honest before our Maker, and deal with this matter personally, factually, recognizing the problems of sin/evil/death and from whom it stems. And from that working, we are to divide and alienate ourselves as believers. This IS in our power that we have been given, TO SEE it, and to be TRUTHFUL about it. Truth is the POWER that divides us from this working. God in Christ HONORS His Truth.

All the "works" in the world will avail the tempter in the flesh exactly nothing. Psalm 6:8, Luke 16:26-28 Matt. 7:22:24

We stand before ALL the rebukes of Gods Words, accepting them fully, precisely for this reason. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4

Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Those who can not hear ALL the Words of God are still in the flesh, because of the operations of the tempter who "partly" blinds us all, yet the spirit in them is willing to hear.

As an example, regarding baptism via water, this IS a representational matter, entirely. It is not an exercise of any type of guarantee that any person will no longer be subject to the intrusions of the tempter in their flesh.

Water in the scripture is allegorical in spiritual nature to THE WORD. Eph. 5:26 Num. 20:24 Psalm 147:18 Jesus is LIVING WATER.

So there be no mistake, allegories are MORE REAL than physical reality in Gods Sights and Workings-> because these point to the spiritual matters of His Real Present Engagements in the conveyances of allegories, that being, God in Christ is ACTIVELY AGAINST sin/evil/death and the "evil agents," Satan and his messengers, through the AGAIN very real powers of MERCY, TRUTH, GRACE, FORGIVENESS, and LAW, which same is still AGAINST the wicked agents, that are not MAN, but are IN man.

When we "stand" truthfully before Him, we SEE that when we go DOWN, into Gods Waters, His Word, His Christ, His Spirit, we DIE to the flesh, even though we yet live in it. And nevertheless of this present walking death, by those same Living Words, we as believers COME UP entirely clean from those same WATERS/Word, a picture of our forthcoming Resurrection, out of this vile body of DEATH in which sin still dwells.

All of this is allegorical in nature, and shows our understanding of His Promises. It is, therefore, strictly an action of faith. But the principles will not change regardless of our exercises of showing understanding by participations.

A person who has expressed their faith, simply by calling on God in Christ to save them, yet not baptized, shall be saved regardless, by the Power of God in Christ. It is the Holy Spirit within them, who has drawn them INto Christ to begin with. People do not conjure up faith on their own. It is a gift of God in Christ.

The Living Word Himself has been 'seeded' into them. And He Shall Not Fail them, no, not one. Love NEVER fails.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

When the pharisees came to be baptized, these men were rebuked by John the Baptist.

WHY?

Because DEVILS dwelt within and controlled these bad actors, according to the principles of God in Christ. Mark 4:15, John 8:44. It was not just the Pharisees who showed up, but ALSO the devils within them who had captured and blinded them in their HEARTS.

Spiritually blinded "believers" can NOT see these Spiritual principles. They themselves have been partly blinded by the same principle of Mark 4:15, and the Word has been literally, STOLEN from within them, so they can not see. A more dominant player is literally "in their temple, their body."

IF we are hearing, then we see that it was the Pharisees, who were in fact children of God as well (Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9), AND there were their demonic controllers, who had, in essence, CAPTURED their own body/temple.

Jesus Himself came to the 'temple" of DEMONIC CAPTIVITY in Jerusalem, and soundly REBUKED those evil agents therein, AND within the people! Even arousing them to the point where they KILLED Him.

Jesus came to Breathe HIS FIRE of forthcoming destruction upon them. And to "divide" His people from "their workings."

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

BLINDED people think that Jesus was speaking only to people. He was NOT!

Jesus was speaking directly to the DEVILS within those people who had blinded and captured them.

 

[MarkT]

How can belief and faith have different meanings when they come from the same Greek root word? Faith is used as a noun where believing is used as a verb and in many cases it used as an active verb denoting the subject doing the action of believing.

Again, in 1 Thess 1:3, Mk 2:1-5 faith is called a work.

The difference is in what follows. If we believe God is true, then we are expressing a belief. If we believe in God, we are expressing faith. It is written Abraham believed God; that is expressing trust.

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Heb. 11:1

1 Thessalonians 1:3
remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

You seem to be equating words when you say faith is called a work. You are equating work with faith, faith with work.

But here Paul refers to their work of faith; work as a result of Paul preaching the gospel which they received by faith. Later he refers to the fact they received Paul and the gospel with joy and they became imitators of Paul. This is what Paul is referring to when he says, 'your work of faith'. He is referring to the fact they received the gospel and they became imitators of Paul. 1 Thess. 1:5-7.

And re. Mr. 2:1-5, Jesus saw they believed in him. This is why he said he, 'saw their faith'.

 

[MarkT]

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21-23

The work that Abraham did, was to obey the Voice of God., to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

It's called the obedience of faith.

Faith with this work of obedience is dead.

Abraham obeyed God, therefore Abraham believed God.

Adam, on the other hand believed Satan, therefore Adam obeyed Satan, and disobeyed God.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

I agree Abraham was justified by what he did, and faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, James 2:22 But James said faith was completed by works. He doesn't say faith is a work. Neither does he say believing is a work.

“Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 He believed and so he obeyed. Genesis 22:1 says God tested Abraham. You have it he obeyed, therefore he believed, which sounds kind of strange to me. I would say he obeyed therefore he was shown to be trustworthy, a friend of God.