Work For A Free Gift?

[Seabass]

I think there's a difference between where the bar is set and what we can achieve of our own volition. I believe the bar has been set. God demands perfection and expects it from us as Jesus tells us in Matthew 5. We have proven that we are not capable of reaching that level of perfection but that is no excuse. Fortunately, through the righteousness of Noah and his family, God stopped short of dealing with us. Because of His great love for us He provided a way by sending Jesus, the perfect unblemished Lamb to pay the atonement on our behalf.

God has foreknowledge of course, and God would foreknow that men would sin and not obey Him flawlessly therefore God made provisions in both laws (animal sacrifices in the OT and Christ in the NT) for atonement of the sins that God foreknew men would commit.

 

[Seabass]

I don't know why you keep calling it work. Believing isn't a work, neither does it require any kind of work; only a believing heart. So when Jesus answered, '“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:29, he is referring to the work of the sower. The work of the sower, and Jesus said he was the sower Mt. 13:37 because he was doing the work of God John 5:19, and it is through him that we believe, is that you believe in him whom he has sent. And I wouldn't call it a condition either; believing is just the outcome of hearing our Master's voice. It does not require any effort at all.

Believing is a work, it is obedience, Jn 3:36 ASV.
Jesus called believing a work in Jn 6:27-29 where Jesus said believing is a WORK of God....believing is a work that has been ordained/approved of God for men to do. Again in Jn 6:27 Jesus told them to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life and this meat they were told to labor for is belief....believing is that obedient work that endures unto everlasting life.

Belief/faith is called a work in 1 Thess 1:3
In Mk 2:1-5 what Jesus saw that is called 'faith' is the WORK those men did.


Mt 13:37 when Jesus was on earth Himself He did go about preaching the word/sowing the seed. Yet after a short time on earth, Jesus left earth returning to His Father and Jesus left behind His disciples giving them the authority in the great commission to go and preach/sow the seed in His absence. Jesus would now, by authoritarian proxy, be sowing the seed though His disciples just as Jesus by athoritarian proxy baptized men though He baptized none personally, Jn 4:1,2.

 

[Seabass]

That's right. Preachers preach the word. Teachers teach the word. Believers believe the word. But that does not make believing a work. It is God who gives growth. As Paul said, "I planted, Apol′los watered, but God gave the growth". 1 Cor. 3:6 Believing is not a work like planting and watering. Believing is the work of God.

Believing is a work and it is dead if it is not a work but just a mental assent of the mind and nothing more as the devils have that type of dead belief, James 2:19.

Jn 3:16--------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Lk 13:3,5------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Rom 10:9,10------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>unto salvation
Mk 16:16------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

Since there is but ONE way to be saved/not perish then believing MUST include the works of repentance, confession and submitting to baptism. A belief that lack these works is a dead belief only that cannot save. All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person that will also not confess Christ (Mt 10:32,33) or accept the gospel in baptism. (Acts 2:41)

 

[Seabass]

Really?

Yes, really. The bible REALLY does not tell us what that thorn in the flesh/messenger of Satan was. God woud have a reason why it does not tell us but as for know we cannot know with 100% certainty what it was.

Then we ought to wipe a whole lot of scriptures out, for example:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

There is other information the bible does not give us yet God gave us the information He thinks we should have and other verses that do give us information should not be wiped out.

Just step into the world of those claiming they are sinless then, and we can move to examine the truth of such a claim.

I never said a person was flawlessly sinless but one dead to sin cannot continue to live in sin.
John said "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn 3:9. "Cannot sin" does not mean "impossible to sin" . The present tense of "cannot" denotes that a Christian cannot continue to live in sin/have sin continually dwell in him. The Christian does occasionally sin but must repent of that sin for he CANNOT continue in that sin.

We've already covered this. The numerous deployments Paul personally made in these matters are "present tense" not "past tense" applications. For another example we can observe that Paul in 1 Tim. 1:15 said "I am" the chief of sinners, not "I was" or "I used to be."

And the elaboration of this is that believers do engage internal temptations of the tempter, placing that work and worker internal in order to do so, and further, that since Apostles engage this principle of The Word, Mark 4:15, moreso than the average Joe believer, then they are also subject to MORE temptation of the tempter. We do have a battle on our hands, as noted prior. The battlefield is "internal," first, in the nature of our adversary. This is also "how" Paul derived that evil "IS" present with me in Romans 7:21, again, not "was," IS.

1) Then you ha created a contradiction that you cannot fix for it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to be both dead unto sin and have sin dwelling in him at the same time. One verse does not cancel the other verse out.

2) there is use of first person, present tense being used elsewhere in the bible:

Of course, it is Paul's use of the first person present tense in these words that is regarded as the principal support of the interpretation of this passage (here to the end of the chapter) as a Christian experience; but Paul's thought here was retrospective, despite the present tense. The author of Hebrews (probably the same apostle) used the present tense and first person in Romans 6:1 of that epistle accommodatively, as is undoubtedly done here. A history teacher's instruction of a class studying the American Revolution might say of Washington's winter at Jockey Hollow:

We are now with Washington's army west of the great swamp in New Jersey. Cold and hunger are our enemies. Disease stalks us; desertion is increasing; and there is even mutiny.

In such a presentation, the first person present tense cannot indicate the present time at all; and we are certain that Paul's present condition when he wrote Romans was absolutely not indicated by his use of first person present tense in Romans 7:14ff.
Coffman Commentary

Lastly there is the use of the word "now" in Rom 8:1. Paul is contrasting how it is for him "NOW" in Christ contrasted to how it was back THEN under the OT law.

Whatever Paul believed would not avail the working of the tempter "within" anything. This is "why" justification is not and can not be "of works" because "all" of our "works" are in fact tainted by the presence of indwelling sin and the internal temptations of the tempter, which place both that working and that worker "in the flesh."

2 Corinthians 1:9
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

James 4:
1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The "foundation" of unmerited Grace and Divine Mercy is based on our 'factual needs' of same, because of our present conditions, indwelling sin, which is in fact DEMONIC. 1 John 3:8.

The same Grace that lifts us and places us into FAITH, arouses the DEVILs to anger, and to fight because the intentions of Grace is to REVEAL and to DESTROY them. (Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13, Matt. 10:26, Isaiah 27:1) "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8

The Divine Mercy that "allows" us to STAND IN FAITH avails DEVILs exactly nothing. They will not be recipients of Divine Mercy, but Divine Wrath and Divine Destruction.

I have every faith that the full intentions of God in Christ is to DESTROY the devil and "his works", and this destruction will transpire IN people of faith in Jesus Christ, first.


1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

We stand under TWO JUDGMENTS.

One, the JUDGMENT OF HIS ETERNAL LIFE, which can NOT be taken from us.

The other, the JUDGMENT of DESTRUCTION, of all the ways and works of our adversary, and eventually, when it is TIME, the Adversary himself.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I will again appeal to Rom 6:16-18 where the order of events are:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then freed fro sin

Rom 6:16 Paul said obedience UNTO righteousness and NOT obedience because one is already righteous.

It is too clear and unambiguous that Paul put obeying BEFORE justification/freed from sin. And Paul never contradicts himself on this matter but is in perfect harmony with James:

Rom 6------obeyed from the heart>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies/freed from sin
James 2----by works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a man is justified

 

[WIP]

God has foreknowledge of course, and God would foreknow that men would sin and not obey Him flawlessly therefore God made provisions in both laws (animal sacrifices in the OT and Christ in the NT) for atonement of the sins that God foreknew men would commit.

I'm sure this is not your intention but when I read what you write I'm hearing excuses for our disobedience sort of like the person that says, "Well, God created me this way therefore...." As a result in my mind it negates the sacrifice of the Cross.

Just sharing my impression.

 

[smaller]

Yes, really. The bible REALLY does not tell us what that thorn in the flesh/messenger of Satan was.

I'd say we are told explicitly and exactly, with no ambiguity whatsoever.

I never said a person was flawlessly sinless but one dead to sin cannot continue to live in sin.

I appreciate that Paul did not set his own vile body on a phony "holy" pedestal.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I generally don't deal well with claims to the contrary, as they are lies, and the masquerades of phony religion positions, thinking that our quite factual vile body is something other than what it is.

And, further, Paul points to "why" this is so. Because we ARE tempted of the tempter IN the BODY, just as Paul showed within himself, in the flesh, with the messenger of Satan. 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14,

and here, for example, showing that "lusts" continue, after salvation:

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

1) Then you ha created a contradiction that you cannot fix for it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to be both dead unto sin and have sin dwelling in him at the same time. One verse does not cancel the other verse out.

We were never promised a sinless body, but rather, a DEAD one, in anticipation of our CHANGE.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

That dead body is NOT going to change it's stripes for anyone. It has SIN in it, and it is, therefore, both VILE and DEAD.

And that also means it, and it's SIN indwelling, will "continue" to present it's LUSTS as a form of persecutions, to children of the Spirit of God in Christ.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other:
so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[MarkT]

Believing is a work, it is obedience, Jn 3:36 ASV.

No it's not. Believing is not something that you have to perform. Believing and obeying are two different things just as hearing and believing are two different things.

Jesus called believing a work in Jn 6:27-29 where Jesus said believing is a WORK of God....believing is a work that has been ordained/approved of God for men to do.

Believing is not a work we do. Jesus said believing is the work of God. In other words, God causes it. Just as God causes the rain to fall on the good and the bad, you don't have to work to get wet.

Jesus did not say it is the work of man. God is the one who sows the word of the kingdom. Believing is something that happens when the word falls on a believing heart.

Again in Jn 6:27 Jesus told them to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life and this meat they were told to labor for is belief....believing is that obedient work that endures unto everlasting life.

We don't labor for believing. We labor for the food that comes from above; the food which Jesus said 'the Son of man will give you.' John 6:27 Jesus gives us the bread of life, the words he gave us are spirit and life.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Belief/faith is called a work in 1 Thess 1:3

Paul commended them for their work of faith and labor of love. In other words he commended them for their works. He did not say believing is a work.

No where does it say believing is a work.

In Mk 2:1-5 what Jesus saw that is called 'faith' is the WORK those men did.

No. It's not. Faith is not a work that we do. Those people believed Jesus could heal the paralytic, so bringing the paralytic to Jesus showed their faith. It doesn't say anything about faith being a work they did rather their act showed their faith.

Mt 13:37 when Jesus was on earth Himself He did go about preaching the word/sowing the seed. Yet after a short time on earth, Jesus left earth returning to His Father and Jesus left behind His disciples giving them the authority in the great commission to go and preach/sow the seed in His absence. Jesus would now, by authoritarian proxy, be sowing the seed though His disciples just as Jesus by authoritarian proxy baptized men though He baptized none personally, Jn 4:1,2.

O.K.

 

[JLB]

A belief that lack these works is a dead belief only that cannot save. All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person that will also not confess Christ (Mt 10:32,33) or accept the gospel in baptism. (Acts 2:41)

Where is the LIKE button when you need it!




JLB

 

[MarkT]

Believing is a work and it is dead if it is not a work but just a mental assent of the mind and nothing more as the devils have that type of dead belief, James 2:19.

Jn 3:16--------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Lk 13:3,5------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Rom 10:9,10------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>unto salvation
Mk 16:16------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

Since there is but ONE way to be saved/not perish then believing MUST include the works of repentance, confession and submitting to baptism. A belief that lack these works is a dead belief only that cannot save. All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person that will also not confess Christ (Mt 10:32,33) or accept the gospel in baptism. (Acts 2:41)

You forgot one thing, you have to be born again. If you are not born again, then you're just going through the motions.

The church today is like a man who thinks he is going to win the lottery. He obeys his impulse and he buys a ticket. So after a few attempts, he gives up and stops believing. No wonder no one believes.

 

[MarkT]

Believing is a work and it is dead if it is not a work but just a mental assent of the mind and nothing more as the devils have that type of dead belief, James 2:19.

Jn 3:16--------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Lk 13:3,5------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Rom 10:9,10------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>unto salvation
Mk 16:16------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

Since there is but ONE way to be saved/not perish then believing MUST include the works of repentance, confession and submitting to baptism. A belief that lack these works is a dead belief only that cannot save. All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person that will also not confess Christ (Mt 10:32,33) or accept the gospel in baptism. (Acts 2:41)

Are we discussing believing or faith; they are two different things? Faith is a commodity; it is what we receive for believing. Ro. 12:3 Believing is what we do, but it is not a deed. It's like growing in the knowledge of God; it's what we do, but it is not a deed.

 

[JLB]

Are we discussing believing or faith; they are two different things? Faith is a commodity; it is what we receive for believing. Ro. 12:3 Believing is what we do, but it is not a deed. It's like growing in the knowledge of God; it's what we do, but it is not a deed.

Just as faith without the work of obedience is dead, so also believing without obedience is dead.
James 2:21-24

Unbelief = Disobedience
Hebrews 4:6


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

What about obedience without belief?

 

[MarkT]

Just as faith without the work of obedience is dead, so also believing without obedience is dead.
James 2:21-24

Unbelief = Disobedience
Hebrews 4:6


JLB

What do you mean by the work of obedience? James said faith without works is dead. I agree.

The issue is whether believing is a work. For example, I believe Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. Outside of reading the Bible, I didn't do anything to believe.

 

[Seabass]

I'm sure this is not your intention but when I read what you write I'm hearing excuses for our disobedience sort of like the person that says, "Well, God created me this way therefore...." As a result in my mind it negates the sacrifice of the Cross.

Just sharing my impression.

Nowhere does man have an excuse for disobeying. God expects man to put forth much effort in not sinning yet God understands man cannot be perfectly sinless on his own, therefore God made a way for man to be "holy and without blame", "spotless" and "without wrinkle" (Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:14) and that way requires one being IN CHRIST and it takes obedience to be in Christ therefore it takes obedience to be holy and without blame, spot or wrinkle.

 

[Seabass]

I'd say we are told explicitly and exactly, with no ambiguity whatsoever.

The context simply does not say what the thorn in the flesh was.

I appreciate that Paul did not set his own vile body on a phony "holy" pedestal
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I generally don't deal well with claims to the contrary, as they are lies, and the masquerades of phony religion positions, thinking that our quite factual vile body is something other than what it is.

And, further, Paul points to "why" this is so. Because we ARE tempted of the tempter IN the BODY, just as Paul showed within himself, in the flesh, with the messenger of Satan. 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14,

and here, for example, showing that "lusts" continue, after salvation:

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.



We were never promised a sinless body, but rather, a DEAD one, in anticipation of our CHANGE.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

That dead body is NOT going to change it's stripes for anyone. It has SIN in it, and it is, therefore, both VILE and DEAD.

And that also means it, and it's SIN indwelling, will "continue" to present it's LUSTS as a form of persecutions, to children of the Spirit of God in Christ.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other:
so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

You continue to create a contradiction that you cannot resolve. Again, one cannot be both dead unto sin Rom 6:11 yet at the same time have sin dwelling in him. That is no different than saying a light can be both off and on at the same time.

 

[Seabass]

No it's not. Believing is not something that you have to perform. Believing and obeying are two different things just as hearing and believing are two different things.



Believing is not a work we do. Jesus said believing is the work of God. In other words, God causes it. Just as God causes the rain to fall on the good and the bad, you don't have to work to get wet.

Jesus did not say it is the work of man. God is the one who sows the word of the kingdom. Believing is something that happens when the word falls on a believing heart.



We don't labor for believing. We labor for the food that comes from above; the food which Jesus said 'the Son of man will give you.' John 6:27 Jesus gives us the bread of life, the words he gave us are spirit and life.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.



Paul commended them for their work of faith and labor of love. In other words he commended them for their works. He did not say believing is a work.

No where does it say believing is a work.



No. It's not. Faith is not a work that we do. Those people believed Jesus could heal the paralytic, so bringing the paralytic to Jesus showed their faith. It doesn't say anything about faith being a work they did rather their act showed their faith.



O.K.

Jesus clearly called believing a work in Jn 6:27-29, believing is a work given by God unto man to do. Jesus made working a necessary part of getting everlasting life thereby settling once and for all one must work if he wants Jesus to give him everlasting life and the work done per the context is believing. Even if you do not want believing to be a work, that still does not undo Christ's words of Jn 6:27 requiring works in order to receive everlasting life.

Believing is a work for it INCLUDES the works of repenting, confession and submitting to baptism:
Jn 3:16---------belief>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3--------repentance>>>>>>saves
Rom 10:9----confession>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21---baptism>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just ONE way to be saved, no alternatives, then belief MUST include the works of repentance confession and baptism.

Jn 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:"
The chief rulers belief will not save them for their belief is void of confession, Rom 10:9,10
James 2:19 the devils belief will not save them for their belief is void of repentance.

Therefore Jesus does NOT require belief only to be saved for that idea would have Christ contradicting Himself in Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33 and Mk 16;16 where Jesus also requires repentance confession and baptism.


Lastly,
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together,

Who are the ones said to have "believed" in verse 44?
1) the ones that gladly received PEter's words and baptized or
2) the ones that rejected Peter's words rejecting being baptized?

Obviously the ones that "believed" in v44 are the ones that accepted Peter's words and baptized. So we have the word "believed" in v44 used as a synecdoche where it INCLUDES the obedient work in submitting to baptism. Note also the implication of the words of v41 showing NOT being baptized is NOT receiving the gospel word.

 

[Seabass]

You forgot one thing, you have to be born again. If you are not born again, then you're just going through the motions.

The church today is like a man who thinks he is going to win the lottery. He obeys his impulse and he buys a ticket. So after a few attempts, he gives up and stops believing. No wonder no one believes.

Being born again is when one is water baptized and I did include that in my post:

Jn 3:16--------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Lk 13:3,5------------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saves
Rom 10:9,10------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>unto salvation
Mk 16:16------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

 

[Seabass]

Are we discussing believing or faith; they are two different things? Faith is a commodity; it is what we receive for believing. Ro. 12:3 Believing is what we do, but it is not a deed. It's like growing in the knowledge of God; it's what we do, but it is not a deed.

Believing and faith come from the same Greek root word believing being used as a verb and faith as a noun.

Eph 2:8---------faith>>>>>>>>>>saves
Jn 3:16---------belief>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:3---------repentance>>>>>>saves
Rom 10:9------confession>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>saves

Again, since there is just ONE way to be saved, then FAITH must include the works of believing repenting, confession and submitting to baptism.
Nowhere does the NT gospel teach one thing alone saves by itself but mentions MANY things that save.

 

[Seabass]

What about obedience without belief?

Not possible since one must believe to keep from obeying not:

Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."
He that believeth is contrasted from he that "obeyeth not" therefore no belief = disobeying.

 

[Sinthesis]

Not possible since one must believe to keep from obeying not:

Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."
He that believeth is contrasted from he that "obeyeth not" therefore no belief = disobeying.

One can obey the Son without believing on the Son. It is similar in concept to:

Rom 2:14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a lawunto themselves:​