Work For A Free Gift?

[Seabass]

Duly noted prior. You merely turned some things into "law" that were never meant to be handled to bring condemnation to believers.

Christ's law is law whether anyone likes it or not.

Paul made no such statements. Being blinded in this present life does not equate to being permanently LOST. You just don't see "who" was upon Israel that is NOT Israel, which Paul delineated in Romans 11:8. And also you missed the explicit statement that Paul makes to the contrary in Romans 11:25-32 showing otherwise, that all of Israel shall be saved, even enemies of the Gospel, noted to you prior as well.


And I might only observe that you are missing plain statements of facts along your trail of intentional condemnations.

If you can't pick up the detail trail, I don't expect you'd see what is going on. God "intentionally" blinded the unbelievers of Israel, and did so by placing a spirit of slumber or stupor upon them so they COULDN'T hear or see. This same fact is delineated in the O.T. as well, here:

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

And guess what? The Lord STILL does this! I respect His Call on this matter.

Paul NEVER made the statement the Jews would be saved "regardless".

God promised the Jews salvation through Christ, yet the Jews overwhelmingly rejected Christ therefore God cut them off. But God left that promise to the Jews of being saved through Christ and did not cut the Jews off completely. Rom 11:28,29. Therefore as long as Jews reject Christ they will continue to be lost. If they accept Christ they can be saved Rom 11:23.

Rom 11:8 God did not close the eyes and ears of the Jews against their will. Matt 13:15; Acts 28:27 show the Jews, of their own will closed their own eyes and ears. The Jews closed their own eyes and ears and Rom 11:8 is a Hebrew idiom where God allowed them to close their eyes and ears. The Jews resisted the laws and commands God gave them and it is that sense that God hardened them by giving them laws and commands they did not want to keep. God did not hardened the Jews against their own will but allowed them to harden their own heart. 2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" God gave us today doctrine to live by yet many do not want this doctrine, they harden their hearts against God's doctrine. and God will allow them to harden their hearts and heap their own lusts to themselves. Yet since God gave the doctrine it is in that sense God is said to harden people by giving them what they do not want.

I am sure you will not agree with this but you are left with reconciling verses. You can keep posting Rom 11:8 that says God closed their eyes and but at some point you will have to deal with Mt 13:15; Acts 28;27 that says they closed their own eyes and ears. You canno put it all on God and claim the Jews had no choice in closing their own eyes and ears.


Deut 29:4 is a Hebrew idiom. Comparing Deut 29:4 with Deut 5:29 "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!"

Why in Deut 5:29 would God express a desire they have an obedient heart, eyes and ears yet you claim God would not give them one from Deut 29:4???? That creates a contradiction within the nature/character of God. God would not give them laws and commands then not allow them to obey those commands.....this goes against the nature/character of God.

The meaning of the context in Deut 29:1-4 is when God led the Israelites out of Egyptian bondage, God performed all kinds of miracles in the eyes of the Israelites yet they would still disobey God, still did not have the heart to obey God. Verse 4 does not mean there was failure on the part of God in giving them the proper heart, eyes and ears in order to obey His commands or that God caused them to be ignorant, but instead God gave them the evidences for them to use their hearts to believe and obey God. Verse 4 is saying the miraculous evidences God gave the Israelites was not effective in inducing their hearts to believe and obey God's commands. Even after all the things God did to Pharaoh, parting the Red Sea, feeding them manna, giving them water from a rock, they still rebelled against God in their hearts and it is in that sense God is said not to have given them heart to perceive, eyes to see, ears to hear. GOd gave them the ability to understand, perceive see and hear yet they rebelled and did not use what God gave them....."Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:" Jer 5:21. God certainly did give them what they needed, they had eyes and ears but they chose not to use them and the miracles God did before them was not effective hence in that sense God did not give them the eyes and ears.

 

[smaller]

Christ's law is law whether anyone likes it or not.

There is God in Christ and THEN there are the abundance of imperfect subjective viewers and views and containers. I try not to mistake one for the other.

Paul NEVER made the statement the Jews would be saved "regardless".

Would you even agree with scripture showing them, the Jews, to be Gods children? Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6 AND

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

???

God promised the Jews salvation through Christ, yet the Jews overwhelmingly rejected Christ therefore God cut them off.

I would simply point back to the fact that it was GOD who did NOT give them a heart to see, hear or understand, as the scriptures in multiple places throughout the O.T. and the N.T. point to. A viewer can just as easily believe this rather than the slants that others use to condemn them. A viewer with condemnation "within" themselves may not be seeing all that accurately to start with, and perhaps have even themselves, FALLEN into condemnation.

We are to be merciful to them as God in Christ has been much more merciful with us.

But God left that promise to the Jews of being saved through Christ and did not cut the Jews off completely. Rom 11:28,29. Therefore as long as Jews reject Christ they will continue to be lost. If they accept Christ they can be saved Rom 11:23.

I do not rule out the blinded Jews being saved for their father's sake, just as Paul noted in Romans 11, regardless of their blinding in our behalves. God CAN and WILL be merciful to them. If other's don't see Gods Mercy, I do, regardless, because of Paul's statements that they shall ALL be saved for the sake of their fathers. This is the sight of mercy.

Rom 11:8 God did not close the eyes and ears of the Jews against their will. Matt 13:15; Acts 28:27 show the Jews, of their own will closed their own eyes and ears. The Jews closed their own eyes and ears and Rom 11:8 is a Hebrew idiom where God allowed them to close their eyes and ears. The Jews resisted the laws and commands God gave them and it is that sense that God hardened them by giving them laws and commands they did not want to keep. God did not hardened the Jews against their own will but allowed them to harden their own heart. 2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" God gave us today doctrine to live by yet many do not want this doctrine, they harden their hearts against God's doctrine. and God will allow them to harden their hearts and heap their own lusts to themselves. Yet since God gave the doctrine it is in that sense God is said to harden people by giving them what they do not want.

We've hashed through this simple principle at quite some length now and you still don't seem to grasp it. We and THEY do have an adversary. That ADVERSARY has in fact blinded their minds and still do so and DID SO in direct adverse violations of Gods Intentions. YET God allows the adversary to BLIND. So, yes, GOD IS IMPLICATED in this and GOD IN CHRIST will take care of the problem for them, because, they are, HIS children, blinded as they may be.

God in Christ can do the Divine Smackdown on Satan and his messengers any old time HE PLEASES to do so.

Isaiah 27
1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

The above is part of the promise of the Gospels, the utter destruction of the DEVIL and his messengers.

4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.

I might suggest that if you got all the parties to this matter on the table for viewing, you might direct your condemnation skills in the appropriate manners, to the parties they are intended for.

In the meantime however it is WE who get to practice our HEAVENLY SKILLS in the sharing and distribution of Love/Grace/Forgiveness and even judgment, because of our ADVERSARY's existence. We "get" to shine His Light in this DARK PLACE. It is a privilege to share HIS LOVE and LIFE in the midst of this present evil and darkness. We can judge and condemn the darkness and NOT condemn those people we share with, IF we know "who" we are fighting against. We CAN look to condemnation in OTHER DIRECTIONS, to the adversaries rather than our fellow man.

God will LEAD in this direction. OR, God can and will allow a person to be overrun by condemnation. His Call.

I am sure you will not agree with this but you are left with reconciling verses. You can keep posting Rom 11:8 that says God closed their eyes and but at some point you will have to deal with Mt 13:15; Acts 28;27 that says they closed their own eyes and ears. You canno put it all on God and claim the Jews had no choice in closing their own eyes and ears.

Will chalk that up to yet another example of circular logic. God in Christ can make any person SEE instantly, just like He did by striking Saul on the road to Damascus. Saul's will and intents didn't have a thing to do with that event. And God in Christ could do this to the whole world, in the next second, if He so chose to do so.

So, better to examine "why" these things transpire and are allowed to happen, in order to understand HIS Ways. This present life is every bit about the "judgment" of these characters:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I believe that every person is fully engaged in this wrestling match. Whether they presently perceive it as such or not.

 

[Sinthesis]

You posted "In the above scripture the labour is towards two possible kinds of meat, not towards the gift of everlasting life."
Jesus said to labour for the meat that "ENDURETH UNTO EVERLASTING LIFE"
Everlasting life is something one must labour for.

You are not reading the verse correctly. The labour is for either 'meat' that will perish, or 'meat' that endures. It is short sighted to work for 'meat' that won't be waiting for us in the everlasting life we receive as a gift.

Jhn 6:25 - And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jhn 6:26 - Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27 - Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

Below is the same idea: one works to acquire treasure, but given our free gift of Heaven, one's works in pursuit of treasure should be with eternity in mind.

Mat 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 - But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 - For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.​

 

[Seabass]

You are not reading the verse correctly. The labour is for either 'meat' that will perish, or 'meat' that endures. It is short sighted to work for 'meat' that won't be waiting for us in the everlasting life we receive as a gift.

Jhn 6:25 - And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jhn 6:26 - Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27 - Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

Below is the same idea: one works to acquire treasure, but given our free gift of Heaven, one's works in pursuit of treasure should be with eternity in mind.

Mat 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 - But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 - For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.​

Jesus told them to work for the "meat" that endures unto everlasting life. If they do not have the "meat" then they do not have everlasting life.

The "meat" Jesus figuratively speaks about is believing. Believing is the spiritual food, believing the words of Christ which are the bread of life which they were to work for as opposed to the physical meat. They were to do the work of believing that endures unto everlasting life...no believing/faith/meat = no everlasting life.

{Believing does not mean belief alone but includes repentance confession baptism, faithfulness, doing Christ's works, etc, etc}

 

[Sinthesis]

Jesus told them to work for the "meat" that endures unto everlasting life. If they do not have the "meat" then they do not have everlasting life.

The "meat" Jesus figuratively speaks about is believing. Believing is the spiritual food, believing the words of Christ which are the bread of life which they were to work for as opposed to the physical meat. They were to do the work of believing that endures unto everlasting life...no believing/faith/meat = no everlasting life.

{Believing does not mean belief alone but includes repentance confession baptism, faithfulness, doing Christ's works, etc, etc}

You are still not reading the verse correctly. Jesus is constructing a figurative analogy in which the 'meat' of verse 27 is not analogous to belief, but instead reflects one's motivation to seek and follow after Him as mentioned in verse 26.

Do you seek Jesus as your savior because you desire prosperity in this life (worldly loaves / perishable meat)? This is short sighted.
Do you seek Jesus as your Savior because of His divine authority to grant eternal life to His followers? If so then your desire will be for glory in everlasting life (enduring meat / treasure in Heaven), which can only be perceived as more valuable than worldly glory if you trust that Jesus, the Son of man, has the authority to give eternal life in the first place. This motivation towards unseen, deferred wages over worldly appetites is evidence one has been sealed by God.

Jhn 6:25 - And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jhn 6:26 - Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27 - Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

 

[john darling]

If you want to call these "rituals" or something else is up to you but they MUST be done to be saved.

If you want to call these "rituals" or something else is up to you but they MUST be done to be saved.

Hey Seabass. I like what you've been sharing. My understanding is that salvation belongs to the Lord. It's his, so he can do whatever he wants with it. He can give it or withold it as he sees fit because he is the only one who has complete understanding of all truth. The thief on the cross (Luke 23:43) apparently didn't do any of the things Jesus commanded and yet Jesus could see something inside of him which was sincere. Perhaps what he "did" was to acknowledge Jesus, even if it was only for a brief time. By doing so God could see that if the man had the chance, he would follow Jesus and therefore was worth saving. I think that kind of flexibility is important to God.

 

[john darling]

Do you seek Jesus as your savior because you desire prosperity in this life (worldly loaves / perishable meat)? This is short sighted.
Do you seek Jesus as your Savior because of His divine authority to grant eternal life to His followers?

Hi sinthesis. I think Seabass' point is that seeking is still something we must do. If we don't seek then we don't find.

 

[childeye]

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus clearly said to LABOUR for the food that abides unto everlasting life, which He GIVES.

Jesus GIVES everlasting life, it's a free gift. Then why LABOUR for a free gift?

Free gifts, as everlasting life, comes with condition(s) and one must work in meeting the conditions placed upon the free gift. The work earns nothing but is just a condition, a part of the free gift.

Since there are two meats being described, then it is about carnal vs.spiritual and our labor is going to serve one or the other. Romans 6:16.

 

[dadof10]

Free gifts, as everlasting life, comes with condition(s) and one must work in meeting the conditions placed upon the free gift. The work earns nothing but is just a condition, a part of the free gift.

Exactly. Well put. We must accept it, even though it's free. There is a Giver and He is offering this Gift, but it will never be ours unless we accept it, and to do that has conditions. It's like the problem I have had with petitionary prayer in the past. Why pray FOR something when God "knows what we need before we ask", and He will do what's best for us anyway. Because we don't know the mind of God, and he may have put the condition on the object of my desire that I ASK for it. An example I've used in my Religious Education classes is, if I told you I had $100 FREE dollars for you and all you had to do was drive over and get it, does this "condition" mean I just made you EARN the money? Of course not, It's a condition of acceptance. So it is with other conditions God puts on Grace.

 

[childeye]

Exactly. Well put. We must accept it, even though it's free. There is a Giver and He is offering this Gift, but it will never be ours unless we accept it, and to do that has conditions. It's like the problem I have had with petitionary prayer in the past. Why pray FOR something when God "knows what we need before we ask", and He will do what's best for us anyway. Because we don't know the mind of God, and he may have put the condition on the object of my desire that I ASK for it. An example I've used in my Religious Education classes is, if I told you I had $100 FREE dollars for you and all you had to do was drive over and get it, does this "condition" mean I just made you EARN the money? Of course not, It's a condition of acceptance. So it is with other conditions God puts on Grace.

I think God has a condition with a free gift. So that we acknowledge He gave it to us and it is not of ourselves. This causes semantic confusion wherein we ask, why do I have to ask for what He already knows I need? The issue in every fall from Grace, is vanity.

 

[Seabass]

You are still not reading the verse correctly. Jesus is constructing a figurative analogy in which the 'meat' of verse 27 is not analogous to belief, but instead reflects one's motivation to seek and follow after Him as mentioned in verse 26.

Do you seek Jesus as your savior because you desire prosperity in this life (worldly loaves / perishable meat)? This is short sighted.
Do you seek Jesus as your Savior because of His divine authority to grant eternal life to His followers? If so then your desire will be for glory in everlasting life (enduring meat / treasure in Heaven), which can only be perceived as more valuable than worldly glory if you trust that Jesus, the Son of man, has the authority to give eternal life in the first place. This motivation towards unseen, deferred wages over worldly appetites is evidence one has been sealed by God.

Jhn 6:25 - And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jhn 6:26 - Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27 - Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

Yes, I have read the passage correctly hundreds of times.

Context is Jesus gave them food to eat, then the people come to Jesus to fee them again. Yet Jesus tells them not to work for the food that perishes but for the food that endures unto everlasting life which Jesus gives (Jn 6:27) The people ask Jesus what work is it that He wants them to do (Jn 6:28). In verse 29 the work Jesus gives them to do is the work of believing. Those that do the work of believing are the ones that are seeking and following Christ. Believing/faith is a work, as Jesus call belief a work in the Jn 6 context, faith is a work 1 Thess 1:3; Mark 2:1-5.

 

[dadof10]

I think God has a condition with a free gift. So that we acknowledge He gave it to us and it is not of ourselves. This causes semantic confusion wherein we ask, why do I have to ask for what He already knows I need? The issue in every fall from Grace, is vanity.

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that it's vanity to pray FOR something, like health or someone else's well being, or that to merely think ourselves worthy to ask is vanity?

 

[childeye]

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that it's vanity to pray FOR something, like health or someone else's well being, or that to merely think ourselves worthy to ask is vanity?

Neither. I'm saying vanity takes God for granted. Therefore, God wants us to do something that ensures that we acknowledge, that every good thing comes from Him by grace. So it is, that we pray and ask, knowing that God knows our needs before we even pray, so as to acknowledge where the good things come from. That is also why a thank you is not out of order, even before you receive what you ask for.

 

[dadof10]

Neither. I'm saying vanity takes God for granted. Therefore, God wants us to do something that ensures that we acknowledge, that every good thing comes from Him by grace. So it is, that we pray and ask, knowing that God knows our needs before we even pray, so as to acknowledge where the good things come from. That is also why a thank you is not out of order, even before you receive what you ask for.

Well put, brother. And, for the record, of course I love you too.

 

[childeye]

Well put, brother. And, for the record, of course I love you too.

God is so more real than reality.

 

[Seabass]

If you want to call these "rituals" or something else is up to you but they MUST be done to be saved.

Hey Seabass. I like what you've been sharing. My understanding is that salvation belongs to the Lord. It's his, so he can do whatever he wants with it. He can give it or withold it as he sees fit because he is the only one who has complete understanding of all truth. The thief on the cross (Luke 23:43) apparently didn't do any of the things Jesus commanded and yet Jesus could see something inside of him which was sincere. Perhaps what he "did" was to acknowledge Jesus, even if it was only for a brief time. By doing so God could see that if the man had the chance, he would follow Jesus and therefore was worth saving. I think that kind of flexibility is important to God.

Hi,

Yes, when Jesus was "on earth" He had been given the power/authority to forgive sins (Matt 9:6) of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. When Jesus left earth some 2000+ years ago, He left behind His word as His authority on earth as to how men are saved. His word cannot lie, (Heb 6:18) and His word promises salvation to them that "obey" (Heb 5:9) and vengeance upon those that "obey not" (2 Thess 1:8). It is no mystery or unknown reason why God saves some and not others. Since He cannot lie, then anyone can know with certainty that salvation goes to the obedient and condemnation to the disobedient

 

[dadof10]

God is so more real than reality.

:wootHe is Reality...

 

[Seabass]

Since there are two meats being described, then it is about carnal vs.spiritual and our labor is going to serve one or the other. Romans 6:16.

Yes, Rom 6:16 is a verse I like to use to demonstrate the necessity of obedience to being saved. Paul says we all serve either one of two masters, each of us serve either:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness


I serve #2. This is hard for those that hold to Luther's idea of faith only for that rules out #2.

 

[Seabass]

Exactly. Well put. We must accept it, even though it's free. There is a Giver and He is offering this Gift, but it will never be ours unless we accept it, and to do that has conditions. It's like the problem I have had with petitionary prayer in the past. Why pray FOR something when God "knows what we need before we ask", and He will do what's best for us anyway. Because we don't know the mind of God, and he may have put the condition on the object of my desire that I ASK for it. An example I've used in my Religious Education classes is, if I told you I had $100 FREE dollars for you and all you had to do was drive over and get it, does this "condition" mean I just made you EARN the money? Of course not, It's a condition of acceptance. So it is with other conditions God puts on Grace.

The bible itself has many example of God's CONDITIONAL grace as with Naaman have to CONDITIONALLY dip 7 times in order to receive God' gracious gift of healing. The work in dipping earned nothing but was necessary for Naaman to do to receive the free gift. Again, another biblical fact that does not jibe with Luther's idea of faith only.

 

[Seabass]

I think God has a condition with a free gift. So that we acknowledge He gave it to us and it is not of ourselves. This causes semantic confusion wherein we ask, why do I have to ask for what He already knows I need? The issue in every fall from Grace, is vanity.

In verses as James 5:16; 1 Thess 5:17 praying is an imperative. How can the Christian expect blessings from God if he disobeys the command to pray? Of course God foreknows what the Christian is in need of before the Christian makes his petition to God in prayer but the Christian must still conditionally meet the command to pray. The praying earns the Christian nothing but is a condition God as put upon receiving His gracious blessings.